Ed trees restrictive & rejuve cocoon is a caster must

[Merrillman]

Any caster that is not a PM pretty much twists in Rejuve Cocoon. It is my only source of healing (I would never waste time on healing pots, they’re underpowered, have long cooldowns, and are awful, especially in reaper). This is particularly true when I’m solo, which is a lot, and I feel with 3 trees you’re locking all non healers into the primal tree as one of the three “must have” trees. But I don’t use, nor do I want anything else from primal.

Please consider adding a tier 1 heal ability to something like Exalted Angel or Divine Crusader. Speaking of which... Here is another thing that belongs in arcane as well as divine — Endless Faith (or something like it) that gives +10% spell points for casters (an absolute must “twist” that I’ll likely lose if these restrictions stand).

We simply need more healing potential in trees that aren’t “primal” I simply can’t survive without Rejuve on a constant button rotation in combat. RC was the key ability to my surviving any reaper quests in the first place.

Maybe add something healing to multi-use caster or melee trees like Divine Crusader. Empyrean Magic at least could be useful to casters too and then you’re not wasting a whole tree for one must have ability.

Better yet, GENERIC, but larger, “themed” trees like some have suggested. I think it’s more than the three melee, heal, caster, though.

I like the idea of a bit more customized ED “paths” like “melee”/“ranged”/“arcane”/“divine”/“hellborn” (for dark things like warlock pacts, necromancy, and negative healing).

Way more build diversity and anything further could easily be added to these paths. I dunno. Just my 2 cents. I feel like without rejuve and a completely wasted primal path I won’t be survivable if I solo, which means I can only play at least 50% less than I do now, or I have to abandon my Sorcerer and make him into a FVS evoker instead.. It’s just not a fun game if you’re always dead.

[mr420247]

Ya they'll expect your sorc to self heal to survive or you have to waste a tree on rejuv not optimal

So your only choices there are to TR to a WF/BF eat a 1 heart, or Aasimar since we have no idea if they'll ever get a pass

And or TR to an Alchemist which has updated spells trees and slas

[Gniewomir]

rejuve cocoon is a caster must

Thats why i love this change. IMO nothing should be must have, especially since it's not must have for casters only, but also for many melee/ranged builds. Almost every single build being able to self heal with cocoon - it's just silly from balance/diversity point of view.

[mr420247]

Its not must have the meta will just change thats it so less rogues, artis more pallys that can easily self heal and barbs

Self heal or die been that way since reaper really balanced there i expect we'll just see alot more forged and aasimar thats all really

[kpak01]

Any caster that is not a PM pretty much twists in Rejuve Cocoon.

Nope.

I simply can’t survive without Rejuve on a constant button rotation in combat. RC was the key ability to my surviving any reaper quests in the first place.

That tells me both that RC is OP and needs nerfing, and that you are doing it wrong.

[Pandjed]

(I would never waste time on healing pots, they’re underpowered, have long cooldowns, and are awful, especially in reaper).

Isn't this the real problem? I mean, I can understand that it's easy to be captured by old ideas and actually believe, that something is needed, which was there, which used to work somewhat for a lot of people, despite the work you have to put into it to make actually use of it.

However, it's important to step back at times, look at everything you think works as utterly ridiculous and horrible, so that you may look at underlying issues.

POTIONS ARE THE WORST!



The one source of healing which every character has access to is just bad. Why is there a need to use an abundance of Heal scrolls in the first place? Why was RC the cheap and "necessary" thing in the first place? Why are the only decent potions hidden behind favor, long cooldowns, and a big downside, even though they don't even properly scale through all levels?

Seriously, f the cocoon.

Just give proper healing potions. Even if they have 60 sec cooldown to be a after combat or emergency heal, just give an option that works for everyone, so that we can say goodbye to hirelings in heroic, endless wasted scrolls of Heal, because your UMD is still to low, and the sad fact, that fighter tanks need either a healer or being aasimar to tank stuff for long perdiods of time.

And just let us buy them with platinum to a reasonable price for their level (like sell 1 on level items for a potion or so).

[Merrillman]

Thats why i love this change. IMO nothing should be must have, especially since it's not must have for casters only, but also for many melee/ranged builds. Almost every single build being able to self heal with cocoon - it's just silly from balance/diversity point of view.

I don’t. People forget this is a video game. Not real life and not even tabletop. If we are always dead we just aren’t going to play. Self heal is and always will be a MUST. No choice because heal pots suck, and suck BADLY. They’re useless. Scrolls take too long, and you lose all kinds of stats swapping weapons (w filigrees) out. You simply don’t have time to do this in either reaper or raids. It’s a video game. We get more lives and more “guys” and that’s how it is supposed to be.

[Merrillman]

Isn't this the real problem? I mean, I can understand that it's easy to be captured by old ideas and actually believe, that something is needed, which was there, which used to work somewhat for a lot of people, despite the work you have to put into it to make actually use of it.

However, it's important to step back at times, look at everything you think works as utterly ridiculous and horrible, so that you may look at underlying issues.

POTIONS ARE THE WORST!



The one source of healing which every character has access to is just bad. Why is there a need to use an abundance of Heal scrolls in the first place? Why was RC the cheap and "necessary" thing in the first place? Why are the only decent potions hidden behind favor, long cooldowns, and a big downside, even though they don't even properly scale through all levels?

Seriously, f the cocoon.

Just give proper healing potions. Even if they have 60 sec cooldown to be a after combat or emergency heal, just give an option that works for everyone, so that we can say goodbye to hirelings in heroic, endless wasted scrolls of Heal, because your UMD is still to low, and the sad fact, that fighter tanks need either a healer or being aasimar to tank stuff for long perdiods of time.

And just let us buy them with platinum to a reasonable price for their level (like sell 1 on level items for a potion or so).

I’d be able to live with that. But it’s not going to happen. I’d be utterly shocked if they ever made heal pots practical (additional pots become consumable as soon as first finishes its heal, triple to quadruple the healing) useful. I welcome it, of course. But until then, Rejuve cocoon or bust. It’s not a fun game if you’re always dead.

[Gniewomir]

I don’t. People forget this is a video game. Not real life and not even tabletop. If we are always dead we just aren’t going to play. Self heal is and always will be a MUST. No choice because heal pots suck, and suck BADLY. They’re useless. Scrolls take too long, and you lose all kinds of stats swapping weapons (w filigrees) out. You simply don’t have time to do this in either reaper or raids. It’s a video game. We get more lives and more “guys” and that’s how it is supposed to be.

In the same way you could argue that CC based sorcs should have decent melee dps cause it's not fun to just CC mobs and not be able to kill them/bosses in a split of second is not fun. In fact it's hard for me to imagine decent caster being always dead while it's the class that (until high reaper) 1 shots everything and usually don't allow any mob to get close enough to hit you. For average/less experienced players it might be a problem indeed, but good players don't need much healing as caster.

Every class/build have different role to play. Yes, this is video game and there's a reason why almost every single video game is not allowing everyone to selfheal in a really efficient way. If you'll go through tens of thousands of games - there're almost always some healing classes (even healing units in strategy games) and i don't think i saw any game that allows easy to obtain very good source of selfhealing that require literally 0 investment like cocoon in ddo. How useful are potions/heal scrolls etc is entirely different matter - while scrolls (with scroll mastery) are still decent source of selhealing, potions could use some update - those were designed when we even weren't dreaming about the hp numbers almost every player can reach.

To be honest i don't know how you could even think that changing cocoon is hurting build diversity, while it's actually the opposite: cocoon being available for everyone is killing build diversity by making all "kinda selfhealable" builds (by kinda i mean not pure fvs/cler/bard) pointless cause why include selfhealing in build when you can just twist cocoon.

[Merrillman]

To be honest i don't know how you could even think that changing cocoon is hurting build diversity, while it's actually the opposite: cocoon being available for everyone is killing build diversity by making all "kinda selfhealable" builds (by kinda i mean not pure fvs/cler/bard) pointless cause why include selfhealing in build when you can just twist cocoon.

Because without it? I spend most of my time dead in anything other than hard. Getting one shot every 3 seconds is not fun. That dead all of the time status means I cannot accume reaper points. Only way to be good in reaper is to get reaper points, and RC is what allowed me the viability to do that. I’ll solo even more now as half my group already left DDO over the nerf. I have maybe an hour a day max to spend on the game. If I’m dead? I’ll take my $5000+ a year spend and leave. That’s pretty much the bottom line. If I can’t heal, I don’t live. If I can’t stay alive I have no desire to waste money on resurrection cakes. Soloing is the majority of what I do, and I do not want to play a Cleric, Pally, Ranger, Druid, PM, Aasimar, Warforged or any other self healable class. I love the Sorcerer I play and have put many years into him. No desire to make an entire change, re-farm gear, etc. Not fun. Not going to be a good experience. So in my opinion, RC is 1000% vital. Can’t DDO without it. No tank and no healer when soloing. Can’t effectively solo without self heal is the bottom line. Perhaps if it wasn’t such a stupid jump from solo to elite to reaper when it claims one level for each setting but is really more like a feel of 5-10 levels of difference for each. Game is basically useless to me if I can’t solo R1 or Elite.

[Nugaot]

Ya they'll expect your sorc to self heal to survive or you have to waste a tree on rejuv not optimal

So your only choices there are to TR to a WF/BF eat a 1 heart, or Aasimar since we have no idea if they'll ever get a pass

And or TR to an Alchemist which has updated spells trees and slas

Is it really wasting a tree if Primal Avatar makes a good tree for casters, especially elemental nukers and would probably be what a sorc wants for a secondary or tertiary ED anyways?

[rabidfox]

Dead DPS do zero damage. So using a tree for putting out self-heals/survival is viable choice. I assume Exalted Angel will also still have heals sitting in it as a tree choice for this too (post u51). Once again, dead DPS do zero damage; pure min/maxing often isn't possible when soloing (well, there are those who so do it, but that's outlier territory) so one trades-off a bit less damage in exchange for more survivability. Solo builds/setups vs what one does with a good group composite should be different, we don't need cookie cutter choices that fill both at the same time.

[dredre9987]

Because without it? I spend most of my time dead in anything other than hard. Getting one shot every 3 seconds is not fun. That dead all of the time status means I cannot accume reaper points. Only way to be good in reaper is to get reaper points, and RC is what allowed me the viability to do that. I’ll solo even more now as half my group already left DDO over the nerf. I have maybe an hour a day max to spend on the game. If I’m dead? I'll tskr my $5000+ a year spend and leave. That’s pretty much the bottom line. If I can’t heal, I don’t live. If I can’t stay alive I have no desire to waste money on resurrection cakes. Soloing is the majority of what I do, and I do not want to play a Cleric, Pally, Ranger, Druid, PM, Aasimar, Warforged or any other self healable class. I love the Sorcerer I play and have put many years into him. No desire to make an entire change, re-farm gear, etc. Not fun. Not going to be a good experience. So in my opinion, RC is 1000% vital. Can’t DDO without it. No tank and no healer when soloing. Can’t effectively solo without self heal is the bottom line. Perhaps if it wasn’t such a stupid jump from solo to elite to reaper when it claims one level for each setting but is really more like a feel of 5-10 levels of difference for each. Game is basically useless to me if I can’t solo R1 or Elite.

$5,000+ A year? You spend over $416 a month on what?

[TheAlicornSage]

I don’t. People forget this is a video game. Not real life and not even tabletop. If we are always dead we just aren’t going to play. Self heal is and always will be a MUST. No choice because heal pots suck, and suck BADLY. They’re useless. Scrolls take too long, and you lose all kinds of stats swapping weapons (w filigrees) out. You simply don’t have time to do this in either reaper or raids. It’s a video game. We get more lives and more “guys” and that’s how it is supposed to be.

Being a video game does not mean that all options should be "viable." I totally believe that having options that require either significantly better player skill or creative problem solving to overcome the deficiencies of the option is a great thing.

I have seen way too much lately of players who want games that let them feel like they have better player skill than they actually have. To me, that is a very bad thing.

That said, such players would be a great source of income, just make some self heal items that must be purchased from the do store, or better yet, make better healbot hirelings that can survive in higher difficulty modes to heal the player but are less effective offensively, but are only allowed when solo. SSG makes money, players will little skill can still solo higher content, and yet it doesn't take over the multiplayer experience.

On the other hand, better ability to solo also means fewer players looking to join pick up groups, which is a bad thing. S there is the issue of what do you support, encouraging more players to seek groups by making it almost required (which is the whole point of reaper reducing self heals) or do you prioritize solo play?

Personally, I hate being groups, but that is mainly because I never found players who played like I do. I still believe however, that solo play should require much better player skill or making major sacrifices, and therefore I do not support making self-heals easy for everybody. Understanding the importance of making money though, if they can include items in the store that people can buy to make solo play easier for them but that also can't be used in groups, then I'd support that as probably the best compromise that supports solo play for any build, but also encourages grouping because solo play costs more, and also doesn't ruin multiplayer play.

[SockyMcSockerton]

On the other hand, better ability to solo also means fewer players looking to join pick up groups, which is a bad thing. S there is the issue of what do you support, encouraging more players to seek groups by making it almost required (which is the whole point of reaper reducing self heals) or do you prioritize solo play?

Personally, I hate being groups, but that is mainly because I never found players who played like I do. I still believe however, that solo play should require much better player skill or making major sacrifices, and therefore I do not support making self-heals easy for everybody. Understanding the importance of making money though, if they can include items in the store that people can buy to make solo play easier for them but that also can't be used in groups, then I'd support that as probably the best compromise that supports solo play for any build, but also encourages grouping because solo play costs more, and also doesn't ruin multiplayer play.

"Encouraging people to join groups" isn't a viable option for a lot of people (like me). I can solo 90% of the time and occasionally PUG or I can stop playing.

The real way to make grouping happen more often isn't to force people to group. It's getting more people on the same server at the same time. SSG has shown that it can't grow the player base, so the only alternatives are reducing the number of servers or accepting that PUGs won't happen nearly as often as they used to happen.

[TheAlicornSage]

"Encouraging people to join groups" isn't a viable option for a lot of people (like me). I can solo 90% of the time and occasionally PUG or I can stop playing.

The real way to make grouping happen more often isn't to force people to group. It's getting more people on the same server at the same time. SSG has shown that it can't grow the player base, so the only alternatives are reducing the number of servers or accepting that PUGs won't happen nearly as often as they used to happen.

Personally I agree, but sometimes one needs to compromise and this idea happened to fit multiple purposes including that, and reaper is obviously intended to punish solo play specifically, so it seems that SSG does not agree with us..

[rabidfox]

"Encouraging people to join groups" isn't a viable option for a lot of people (like me). I can solo 90% of the time and occasionally PUG or I can stop playing.

Personally I agree, but sometimes one needs to compromise and this idea happened to fit multiple purposes including that, and reaper is obviously intended to punish solo play specifically, so it seems that SSG does not agree with us..

Making builds that solo well has been a thing since the get-go with DDO; including the people who do fun stuff like solo higher skulls or raids. The new trees from u51 isn't going to change that, for new players/alt lovers, it'll open up more options as the tree for cocoon will be available instantly at 20 and they can spend a couple point points to grab it vs grinding out to get it available as a twist. While a soloist might want that, someone who knows they'll be grouped with a dedicated healer can move those points to doing more damage/better CC/etc. It'll just be a matter of adapting to figure out which 3 trees/how to spend those points is optimal for various solo build setups; it won't be the same as how we build with twists but it'll still have many build options that should work.

[Valerianus]

Making builds that solo well has been a thing since the get-go with DDO; including the people who do fun stuff like solo higher skulls or raids. The new trees from u51 isn't going to change that, for new players/alt lovers, it'll open up more options as the tree for cocoon will be available instantly at 20 and they can spend a couple point points to grab it vs grinding out to get it available as a twist. While a soloist might want that, someone who knows they'll be grouped with a dedicated healer can move those points to doing more damage/better CC/etc. It'll just be a matter of adapting to figure out which 3 trees/how to spend those points is optimal for various solo build setups; it won't be the same as how we build with twists but it'll still have many build options that should work.

problem: ddo has punishing respec cost for no reason whatsoever, just beacause it is built on punishing mechanics.

example here, thinking about your dedicated-healer-scenario, switching from solo build to grouping build will be punishing and not viable on regular basis. please note, twists of fate are the one and only "respec" that has no cost in this game. and they will be no more. also note, ddo has a tiny population and is not a trinity game. you are not bulding a party by default anytime anyway with dps\tank\healer. and this is one of its best features imho. moreover, with the proposed changes, instead of a simple T1 twist you can easily unlock once and forever, you have to spend AP an it will lock you in that tree. build options will be lower, cause vets will have more AP, like now you are seeing builds for racial completionists, you will see builds done for total epic completionists, cause they will capitalize that locked tree cause more points to spend in it. probably also some divine tree, not only druid tree.

wait, this idea need to be expanded in the fourth dimension.

gear stat squish and ED level gating, then level cap increase, they will not introduce a new grind, they are slowing down the existing one, making ddo even more new-player unfriendly. target is, slowing down the pl grind of who is doing it already and already spending on it. follow me. best catch up is gear, squished. everyone had 24 ap (25 ap with tome) in destiny. no more. free-respeccable twists, no more. with level cap increase, new higher destiny tiers will be added. legendary tiers. past lives and store tomes, also because of gear stat squish, will be more important than ever. mmo is grind, fair, they are pushing it even further. with higher destiny tiers, more AP will be required. the math we are doing now with the proposed changes, it is an exercise in futility imho. how many ap in main ed, how many in secondary to compensate lack of twists...after level cap increase will matter no more cause higher tiers. gear power creep will start again and grind (pl) will be more important than ever. epl grind will be slower than ever cause level gating, no matter mob adjustment.

(source: my imagination ranting and teasing you all dear readers)

[rabidfox]

problem: ddo has punishing respec cost for no reason whatsoever, just beacause it is built on punishing mechanics.

example here, thinking about your dedicated-healer-scenario, switching from solo build to grouping build will be punishing and not viable on regular basis. please note, twists of fate are the one and only "respec" that has no cost in this game. and they will be no more. also note, ddo has a tiny population and is not a trinity game. you are not bulding a party by default anytime anyway with dps\tank\healer. and this is one of its best features imho. moreover, with the proposed changes, instead of a simple T1 twist you can easily unlock once and forever, you have to spend AP an it will lock you in that tree. build options will be lower, cause vets will have more AP, like now you are seeing builds for racial completionists, you will see builds done for total epic completionists, cause they will capitalize that locked tree cause more points to spend in it. probably also some divine tree, not only druid tree.

Plenty of classes can toss out heals already when grouped up without needing twists (outside of something like 6x sorc/rogue/etc. party...). I personally am on my 38th dedicate healer life in a row; I run nukes from 1 to 20 then respect my heroic trees at 20 to t5 heals with DC/damage secondary (I used to respec back and forth all the time in epics as needed but decide it wasn't worth the costs/effort). Lately I run around in off-destinies (have 5 ETRs to finish that completely) so I'm doing reduced damage via both heroic trees and epic choices; I turn down the difficulty when soloing and run any skulls a group wants when in a party. Epic leveling is still silly fast even when run on EH solo; there's little reason to worry that a build might be less than min/maxed for X or Y role when running around in a Z build. I agree respec costs are way to high but that's a whole other issue, tree builds will still make for soloable/groupable builds- it just might take a few tries to figure out the optimal setups.

Outside of people with tons of ETRs already, how many people are going have the destiny points to spend beyond the bottom tier of the 3rd tree anyways? Using it for cocoon vs a couple points in some other 3rd tree probably will make next to no difference.

[Merrillman]

$5,000+ A year? You spend over $416 a month on what?

Yes. One, spell pots. Enormous, enormous amounts of spell pots. Cakes. If I solo, I can’t get rid of mob hate in any way. AD. Only way to survive reaper on solo (less of this these days, because more points), is to finish adventures and get the XP. I’ve said this before. I have a VERY demanding job. I am literally NEVER off completely. I have less time to play, so I will buy as many cakes as it takes to finish an adventure.

Chest re-rolls. Every chest, until I get something worthwhile. Max rolls if that’s what it takes. I can only play 1 hour or so a day max. So I have to maximize my chances of getting a decent item. That means treasure elixirs. Also, auction house for rare things like filigrees. Ottos boxes. I buy them every time they come out. VIP. Every expansion, ultimate bundle. Tensers boxes, every time. I also buy things to give to my group of friends, because not all of them can afford what I can (but they’re all my friends from childhood, so I’ve known them all for near 40 years, so it’s not like I’d do that for a group of people I met on DDO). Bank space. Every chance. Crafting space. Bags for every character to store everything.

I have VERY little time to play vs my group. It’s the only way I can keep up with levels because they run more than I can in general. Even w all this, I still have not done the 48 EPL in 5-6 years of regular gameplay.

So yeah. I get ****ed off when they announced this dumb 3 tree rule (I use something from 6!!) and rejuve saves me from buying cakes. It’s not like I WANT to spend if I don’t have to. If they pigeonhole me into primal, I’m not sure I just won’t change to a Druid or FVS evoker. At least then I could heal and wear armor. I prefer Sorceror above all other classes, but if that no longer gets a heal, I’ll just stop spending as much, and change to a healing class. Druid regenerate is as badass as it gets. Earthquake is no joke and I can be a tiefling fire god there too.