Requiring raiding to unlock HW via favor is kind of a jerk move

[kamimitsu]

Currently, you can get a maximum of 399 Gatekeeper favor unless you run one of the two Gatekeeper raids. Kind of a jerk move if you ask me, as there are lots of players who (for any number of reasons) can't/don't/won't raid. I assume more Gatekeeper favor quests are forthcoming, but it still seems pretty lame to put it so close, yet so far away for the non-raiders.

Edit: and they're both EPIC raids at that...

[Ardeis]

I found myself with the same observation. Not knowing how much favor the pack would give in total, I assumed that doing all the heroic quests would be enough. (Based on some previous trees that you would acquire by doing an expansion) I parked my character at 20 with in mind unlocking HW with Saltmarsh to be blocked at 399 favor. I found some kind souls to help me do a EN raid (Defiler) and I finally unlocked it. I just wish the company would be a bit more transparent and forward on these things. I have been playing on and off since release so I am used to these things hapening in DDO. I can just imagine a new player buying the mini-expension at base price for this tree and not being able to play it and be very frustrated about spending money and having to spend more.

[kaipan]

Raiding is a big part of this game. You refuse to do a big part of a game, you're out of a big part of the rewards. How is that weird?

Btw, the not-raiding thing is pretty nonsense since:

1. anyone can raid, even if you're not in a guild, just do it with a pug (I'm alone in my guild, it's a one-man guild now, and I do all the raids every week with pugs)
2. you can solo DotJ (I did at EN exactly for this reason, to unlock hw)

[kamimitsu]

You refuse to do a big part of a game

Not everyone's circumstances are the same. I know of a few people who seldom have more than 2 hours to play at a given sitting (work/family obligations) and even then at odd hours. Waiting for a raid to form and complete just isn't practical for them. I often play at 2am to 5am EST, it's not exactly easy to fill a raid then.

As for soloing raids, that's what I plan to do, but again, that's may not be an option for everyone.

And, I'm not sure that "raiding is a big part of this game" is even true. Plenty of players don't raid (or at least raid very infrequently), and I would ask who gets to dictate what a 'big part of the game' even is? Challenges, on paper, are big part of this game and I never do them (though presumably some do). Seasonal events are a big part of this game, and I never do those either (though presumably some do). You could argue that "hardcore" is a big part of this game, and plenty of people don't do that. And don't even get me started on PvP. I mean, I love stealth, and I think the 'stealth play" is a big part of this game, but if there were a powerful enhancement tree that could ONLY be unlocked by completing Epic Claw of Vulkoor with 1 kill and all optionals completed, you could bet there would be a huge outcry. All I'm saying is that it may be a big part of the game for some, but for others it's just an unnecessary inconvenience.

[kaipan]

Not everyone's circumstances are the same. I know of a few people who seldom have more than 2 hours to play at a given sitting (work/family obligations) and even then at odd hours. Waiting for a raid to form and complete just isn't practical for them. I often play at 2am to 5am EST, it's not exactly easy to fill a raid then.

As for soloing raids, that's what I plan to do, but again, that's may not be an option for everyone.

And, I'm not sure that "raiding is a big part of this game" is even true. Plenty of players don't raid (or at least raid very infrequently), and I would ask who gets to dictate what a 'big part of the game' even is? Challenges, on paper, are big part of this game and I never do them (though presumably some do). Seasonal events are a big part of this game, and I never do those either (though presumably some do). You could argue that "hardcore" is a big part of this game, and plenty of people don't do that. And don't even get me started on PvP. I mean, I love stealth, and I think the 'stealth play" is a big part of this game, but if there were a powerful enhancement tree that could ONLY be unlocked by completing Epic Claw of Vulkoor with 1 kill and all optionals completed, you could bet there would be a huge outcry. All I'm saying is that it may be a big part of the game for some, but for others it's just an unnecessary inconvenience.

Fact is, I agree with all you said. But each of those things give rewards that you can only obtain that way.
I didn't play in HC server (not enough to reach lvl 20) so I didn't get the cosmetic.
I didn't do Revels this year and haven't got the mabar items.

Why HW should be different? Not having HW doesn't cut you out of content, it's not a basic foundation of the game.
It's not like "to unlock Wizard you have to raid."

I totally see that somebody could be playing only 2 hours a week, or with a static group. But then, how can they expect to have access to all this game offers?

[GeoffWatson]

They did the same thing with Falconry.

It sucks that the core raiding time is not convenient for non-Americans.

[kamimitsu]

I didn't play in HC server (not enough to reach lvl 20) so I didn't get the cosmetic.
I didn't do Revels this year and haven't got the mabar items.

Why HW should be different? Not having HW doesn't cut you out of content, it's not a basic foundation of the game.
It's not like "to unlock Wizard you have to raid."

Fair enough, but I'd argue that not getting a piece of gear or cosmetic is not on the same level as not having access to an entire enhancement tree (I'm particularly looking at the DEX trance as being useful for lots of builds, much as Harper was for for KtA trance.) It's not that far off from your example of "to unlock Wizard you have to raid" in my mind, as Universal Enhancement trees are arguably MORE useful and comprise MORE of the game proper than many classes. I've played far more Inquisi splashes than Wizard splashes, same for Harper, and Falconry. I guess I'm also kinda miffed that it requires Epic level raiding, so your character has to be near cap or TR'd for it to be useful.

Truthfully, I'm less concerned about it for myself (I'll be able to get it with an only minor inconvenience) than I am about it for first-lifers, newbies, casual players, etc. It seems like a bad precedent to set, that's all. It's certainly not the end of the world, but making it 1 pt away is almost comically cruel.

I have NO problem with it being unlocked by favor, or even making that unlock tedious and/or difficult, I just think that requiring epic raiding is a step too far as it could potentially put it out of reach for a chunk of players, some of whom are the very players who could most benefit from having early/easier access to it.

[Epicsoul]

First, posting a LN DOJ for favor and getting a few players to complete would take just 30min since it can be done easily solo or duo. Second, there's the option to buy it if you don't want to earn it in game. The fact this can even be earned from favor is a benefit the devs don't have to provide.

[droid327]

Yeah not only gating it behind raids, but gating it just 1 favor point from a Raid makes it seem like insult to injury. I wish they'd just pick one GK quest and increase it by 1 base favor point so at least we have a non-raid pathway to HW, even if it means doing a full Elite clear of every GK quest.

Falconry also requires a raid to unlock, and we've been waiting for more Free Agent favor to get around that for a long time now, so I wouldnt be holding my breath for the next GK pack...

Raiding is a big part of this game. You refuse to do a big part of a game, you're out of a big part of the rewards. How is that weird?

Raiding is one aspect of the game, but not "a big part" of it. The game isnt like WOW or other MMOs, where raiding is the intended endgame for players. Soloing is a full and complete and supported way to play the game. Raiding is not something that should be required of anyone to unlock content that's central for non-raid users. Raid gear is one thing...there's almost always non-raid alternatives, and you dont really need raid gear except to do raids efficiently. Not being able to access a core build component - basically the only way to play a Bow character outside Ranger trees or Elf AA - is something that completely limits someone's ability to play the game the way they want.

I get if you're a raider, you like raiding, and you dont think its a problem that other people should have to raid either. But lots of people dont like it, too, and its no more fair to say "they should have to raid like me" than it would be to force you to play a playstyle you didnt enjoy just to keep playing the ones you do. Imagine if they gated some piece of content behind soloing or grinding crafting or PVP. PVPers say the same thing - "just come PVP then" - but a lot of players just wont, and its unfair to ask them to, or penalize them for not.