Convert older expansions to be simply Premium adventure packs

[kpak01]

I realize that selling expansions is a cash source for SSG, but at some point older expansion is no longer an attractive purchase, and is an unnecessary burden on any newer players. Older expansions should eventually turn into plain-old Premium adventure packs.

Note I am not suggesting any change in their DDO Store prices, just that access to them will automatically be included with VIP.

Menace of the Underdark was released in 2012, and Shadowfell Conspiracy in 2013. These are long-since no longer of shiny new endgame content.

Please immediately convert MotU and Shadowfell to Premium adventure packs, and start thinking about a plan & timeline for other expansion packs to do the same eventually. (Ravenloft is almost 4 years old now, too.)

(Note I'm not asking this for my own benefit. I already have every expansion back, and have always been Premium, not VIP, so really this would have no direct impact on me. But it's silly to ask any new players already paying $10 per month for VIP to also have to buy this 8- or 9-year-old content separately.)

[superevbully]

gl with that

[SoVeryBelgian]

I just ran a group with 3 people new to the game on Argo. The uniform complaints were:

1. Limited Access to Content

2. Grindy as hell without people grouping up

3. No one wants to play/open Elite, only running R1


IMO, I'd really like older P2P content released as F2P (Like Catacombs, Tangleroot or Sorrowdusk) but that's just a Wishlist idea. Not likely.


Instead, I'd like for new content to be considered. Instead of Mini Expansions (which is a cheeky move) or just P2P Adventure Packs... maybe add a Quest here and then that is F2P?

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

There hasn't been a Wilderness area F2P since level 10.
And F2P quests have become scarce as well (once in 5 years or so).

[Pandjed]

(once in 5 years or so).

Let's challenge that statement by looking around 5 years into the past and what they brought for F2P:

1. Legendary Lords of Blades (2020)
2. Legendary Vision of Destruction (2020)
3. Legendary Master Artificer (2020)
4. The Promise of Fire (2020)
5. Lost at Sea (2018)
6. Tower of Frost (2017)
7. Good Intentions (2016)
8. Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener (2016)
9. Search and Rescue (2016)

And in the producer's letter is even a new free dungeon mentioned at the end of this year.

Other things to look forward to this year include a new Monster Manual volume, a free dungeon to wrap up the year, updates to our various festivals, and more! We want to thank you for continuing to make this game and community thrive, and we look forward to making 2021 a fantastic year for DDO!

While I won't deny that F2P quests have been sparse, it should also be obvious why: With so much F2P content already there (albeit outdated), it just doesn't really profit putting all of these workhours and money into stuff that won't give any noticeable return (as new players have enough in their sandboxes and should be made to pay for more, not given more to not pay anything).

[TheAlicornSage]

I just ran a group with 3 people new to the game on Argo. The uniform complaints were:

1. Limited Access to Content

2. Grindy as hell without people grouping up

3. No one wants to play/open Elite, only running R1


IMO, I'd really like older P2P content released as F2P (Like Catacombs, Tangleroot or Sorrowdusk) but that's just a Wishlist idea. Not likely.


Instead, I'd like for new content to be considered. Instead of Mini Expansions (which is a cheeky move) or just P2P Adventure Packs... maybe add a Quest here and then that is F2P?

New f2p content will not help your 2nd and 3rd points, of which I agree that point 3 needs to be addressed.

However, lvling as a solo f2p player really isn't all that bad. It's taken me a decade, but that's largely because of how rare I actually get to play and the large number of alts I have fun with. I haven't really done much grinding cause I really hate grinding, and I still got to epic levels. Further, I don't do the whole optimization thing. So, if I can lvl up to epic without even minimal optimization and with only a little grinding (haven't even done a second run on 99% of the quests), then point 2 is not a game problem but a player one. You need to explore and look around, and when you get free points, unlock adventures rather than cosmetics and consumables.

As for everyone going to reaper rather than n/h/e, this needs a better reason for people to play those difficulties rather than reaper, and right now reaper has all the carrots. Personally, I'd make it so that reaper does not have access to quest specific drops and only has generic or reaper specific loot (and quest loot should be caparable with reaper loot and thus desirable in their own right). That'd give players a reason to play elite.

[Pandjed]

As for everyone going to reaper rather than n/h/e, this needs a better reason for people to play those difficulties rather than reaper, and right now reaper has all the carrots. Personally, I'd make it so that reaper does not have access to quest specific drops and only has generic or reaper specific loot (and quest loot should be caparable with reaper loot and thus desirable in their own right). That'd give players a reason to play elite.

I don't think that this is a solution and will only cause other problems.

I mean, it's hard for a more slow, more casual player to understand, but there is satisfaction and fun in trying to play a game efficiently.

Why do we play reaper while leveling? Higher XP reward and some reaper xp in a process we already do, making it more time-efficient (as long as you know what you can do and how to do it, the XP-reward outweighs the lowered stats time-wise). The normal XP is much more important than the rxp (thus usually only r1). The fact that we can get some level loot on the way is great, because otherwise we'd do the same we did with heroic Sharn at its time: Farming heroic quests on Elite at 30th level to get much quicker through the quest and the loot.
Suddenly, this option becomes much more attractive and might end up as a huge "waste of time" in both cases: When I run Elite on level, I lose the XPs and take longer to level up. If I run capped I spend more time farming.

Which becomes even worse at endgame quests, because you don't need normal XP when you're at cap, but you need items to be there (U50 may give some relief there). If you already have spend enough time to achieve the power to run reaper, why don't get rewarded to earn some RXP while doing farming runs and take some people along, who still can benefit from the high first completion bonus?

Having two sets of loot (Elite and Reaper kind) just clutters inventory and mules much more. Feytwisted was a nice surprise but the number of loot that my mule has to carry let me dread even the possibility to farm both to get as many pieces for my gear tetris as possible.




If the devs want to have people play less reaper, then the reward has to be lowered there to make it an actual consideration. If there weren't more normal XP, then the landscape would look very different, as then suddenly you need to run the same amount of quests as playing pure elite, and with the formular for RXP as it is (where quest level is a factor), I guess low level reaper will die out entirely, because it's not worth the time anymore (as you can get much more RXP at higher level quests with not that much more effort).

Yet the devs currently go with the model of rewarding players to play higher difficulties.

[TheAlicornSage]

Don't get me wrong, I understand the desire to play efficiently, I just don't like it in the rpg style games.

But seriously, you made my point for me, it's all about rewards. You obviously disagree with what specific rewards I suggested, but that wasn't exactly the key point I was making.

Now, you also suggest that the devs intend for people to play reaper over elite. I contend that it is bad design to do so.

Possibly, it is due to strange psychological effect. As you may know, DDO is based on DnD 3.x. What is far less commonly understood is that 3.x was designed to scale from commoner to demigod. Lvl 5 is the max real world humans reach in 3.x rules. But why is that is rarely understood, and why do so many scoff at the mere suggestion? Because there is a limited set of lvls, and thus people tend to fill the entire span of lvls with whatever the story is, and so, rather than lvl 15+ being reserved for stories about becoming a demigod, players just assume that all long term stories are supposed to reach that high, even though it's not true.

Well, many MMO designers seem to think the same way, and so treat the game like one is supposed to race to lvl cap and focus on "endgame" content. At this point, that is so much the industry standard, that it is probably an alien idea for most to have a game with lvls that is not supposed to be that way. And this of course perpetuates itself.

I still think it is bad design for an rpg, and DDO in particular. In my mind, the journey should be far more important than reaching epic levels. In fact, the addition of epic lvls is a sign to me that they just don't understand how to expand on the gameplay in a way contrary to seeking higher stats. DDO was initially a narrative focused game, but that changed, amd it shouldn't have.