Unacceptable

[Arctigis]

Nothing nefarious about it. Many of the same folks who lobbied hand over fist for this revenue model quoting the "game experience may change at any time" part of the TOC, just learned what that means.

After people paid to attain faster for two rounds of character power, the second one gets rolled back equal to the first one - something they also paid to attain faster previously. The grown adult customer feedback from people who paid is they didnt need to pay for another equal item set, and had they known it would get nerfed to equal they would have just held on to the first item set and not paid to attain the second much more quickly. The company made those more recent ones temporarily better which caused people to pay to attain those more rapidly, only to make it equal to the first ones.

When your revenue model is players paying to attain character power faster, you can take the normal amount of rage you would see over a nerf and multiply it by 10.

No one is claiming the sky is falling. If it was they'd find a way to charge us AS to keep it from doing so.

Absolutely spot on. This is exactly why I'm so salty about these changes.

[Malex]

you do realize the other type of bonuses get a similar cut in power, as monsters do?

[dunklezhan]

you do realize the other type of bonuses get a similar cut in power, as monsters do?

I don't think it's *that* it's getting a cut in power, its that it takes it from a raid item to a quest item of the same level but with more stats, not bigger stats. Raid loot *ought* to make raiders want to raid. They want to do the work and end up with an item that *is* best in slot, not get an item that is basically the same in power as the items they have but just with more effects on so they have to go off and play gear tetris because bonuses don't stack in DDO.

That's the *point* of raid loot. Even I, a non-raider like Memnir, can understand that.

[blarhblarhblarh]

This is what the players get after apple polishing SSG when they nerfed the silver longbow and the ravenloft belt. It opened a precedent for they destroy any item, doesn´t matter if it has 5 or 13 years.

Now the players are even paying to be nerfed and to keep a bit of the spell critical but we all know that those changes are a waste of time and will add nothing to the fun or quality of life ot the players. They will sell all the big numbers back when they raise the cap level and will do so without giving the players more inventory space or anything to make our lifes easier.

I even tried to buy the mini expansion and couldn´t because in DDO everything is over complicated and we have to deal with bugs over bugs over bugs. They can´t even set the color of a horse to match their propaganda and come on, it´s a bit too much. They should listen to the players or use D&D source material to solve doubts, not to use a 19 year old developer as a shield for their mistakes.

[mr420247]

And that spell crit comes at the cost of even more dcs that we can't afford to lose lol

[Zretch]

That is the glass half empty view. The glass-half-full view is that by eliminating best in slot must-have items players no longer feel bound to specific choices. Character building expands limited only by imagination. True, players could always do this before but the must-have items were so powerful it regulated anyone not using them to flavor. There are hundreds of epic items in the game. Why wouldn't you want to be able to use more than a handful? This shift in the design paradigm opens up that opportunity.

Bloodrage was only best in slot for people who weren't already capped on doublestrike. It also wasn't best in slot for non-THF builds, for any druid builds, or any monk builds (broke oath and uncentered). The PRR/MRR wasn't the reason to wear that item, it was the 10% stacking DS, and if you didn't need it, you didn't need that trinket.

The shame about the extent of the reduction is that it hurts the more casual players more than it does the optimizers. 10% profane doublestrike was an easy way to get closer to cap without having to strictly optimize gear(DS, Insight DS, Artifact DS), enhancements, feats, and twists. It let you do something different than Running With Wind and Hail of Blows with twist slots. Or you could slot a more useful bracer and forego the 10% insightful doublestrike. Now....not so much. Thanks for playing, though. Hope you didn't spend too much time in Babba's obtaining it.

[Chai]

That is the glass half empty view. The glass-half-full view is that by eliminating best in slot must-have items players no longer feel bound to specific choices. Character building expands limited only by imagination. True, players could always do this before but the must-have items were so powerful it regulated anyone not using them to flavor. There are hundreds of epic items in the game. Why wouldn't you want to be able to use more than a handful? This shift in the design paradigm opens up that opportunity.

This would be true if it weren't for set bonuses. They are what you describe as "must-have items, anyone not using them relegated to flavor." This shift in the paradigm closed the door for build diversity on any item which does not belong in a set. Nowdays the path to optimal is clear as day, and everything else is sentient weapon xp.

[Hawkwier]

you do realize the other type of bonuses get a similar cut in power, as monsters do?

Erm I don't think they did...

Doublestrike on the Leg Battleworn Medal went from 5% to 3%. A similar squish would make the Chrism Doublestrike 6%, not the 3% it has been nerfed to. Similarly, reducing to 20 sheltering would be justified by the squish, not the 10 they nerfed to.

This isn't game breaking stuff here - we're talking 3% DS and 10 sheltering difference, but it isn't right it's been sneaked in, and on top of the squish to boot. That's if it's intentional mind you, might just be an anomaly that needs a wee correction...

[Arkat]

Erm I don't think they did...

Doublestrike on the Leg Battleworn Medal went from 5% to 3%. A similar squish would make the Chrism Doublestrike 6%, not the 3% it has been nerfed to. Similarly, reducing to 20 sheltering would be justified by the squish, not the 10 they nerfed to.

This isn't game breaking stuff here - we're talking 3% DS and 10 sheltering difference, but it isn't right it's been sneaked in, and on top of the squish to boot. That's if it's intentional mind you, might just be an anomaly that needs a wee correction...

Yes


BTW, I didn't raid all this past weekend, didn't raid Monday night, ran three very low-level Coin Lords quests for favor on Tuesday, and didn't play at all on Wednesday. I'm considering raiding tonight, though. We'll see.

[Tilomere]

This may backfire on them. They just eliminated the need for me to upgrade for years off my 7 summer 4 winter set I have already augmented that works for any melee or ranged build I make. Level 30 is now 3% more stats than 29? No thanks, I'll just stick with 29 already augmented. Level 31 is 6% more stats than 29? No thanks, I'll just stick with 29 already augmented. Level 32 is 9% mroe stats than 29? No thanks, I'll just stick with 29 already augmented. I'm done with gear farming, for years now.

[Hawkwier]

This may backfire on them. They just eliminated the need for me to upgrade for years off my 7 summer 4 winter set I have already augmented that works for any melee or ranged build I make. Level 30 is now 3% more stats than 29? No thanks, I'll just stick with 29 already augmented. Level 31 is 6% more stats than 29? No thanks, I'll just stick with 29 already augmented. Level 32 is 9% mroe stats than 29? No thanks, I'll just stick with 29 already augmented. I'm done with gear farming, for years now.

A very valid point. I'd similarly thought why I would bother to purchase future updates if the incremental loot was only rising by 1 or so. Similar to stat tomes, where I only bought them when they evened out a key stat, so usually bought only every second increment. Whilst the squish clears the road for future progression, sticking to the curve from a financial revenue/player incentive perspective may prove a much harder task. I guess they will have to come up with other incentives to purchase updates than loot, which might be a good thing if they can do so successfully. Not easy to see how though, I reckon...

[Marshal_Lannes]

Bloodrage was only best in slot for people who weren't already capped on doublestrike. It also wasn't best in slot for non-THF builds, for any druid builds, or any monk builds (broke oath and uncentered). The PRR/MRR wasn't the reason to wear that item, it was the 10% stacking DS, and if you didn't need it, you didn't need that trinket.

The shame about the extent of the reduction is that it hurts the more casual players more than it does the optimizers. 10% profane doublestrike was an easy way to get closer to cap without having to strictly optimize gear(DS, Insight DS, Artifact DS), enhancements, feats, and twists. It let you do something different than Running With Wind and Hail of Blows with twist slots. Or you could slot a more useful bracer and forego the 10% insightful doublestrike. Now....not so much. Thanks for playing, though. Hope you didn't spend too much time in Babba's obtaining it.

Of course, the assumption of Bloodrage being best in slot is for THF. All equipment nerfs hurt beginning players more. This does not affect casual players because casual players neither raid nor twist in Running with Wind and Hail of Blows. You can agree or disagree with the best in slot design change but the game has clearly moved away from it.

This would be true if it weren't for set bonuses. They are what you describe as "must-have items, anyone not using them relegated to flavor." This shift in the paradigm closed the door for build diversity on any item which does not belong in a set. Nowdays the path to optimal is clear as day, and everything else is sentient weapon xp.

Too early to tell. Also, the number of set bonus items has increased dramatically in the last week. That by nature has already increased build diversity. All the THF Paladins, Barbarians, Fighters and the like have been freed from being tied to Bloodrage to explore these new options. That's good game design.

[Hawkwier]

Of course, the assumption of Bloodrage being best in slot is for THF. All equipment nerfs hurt beginning players more. This does not affect casual players because casual players neither raid nor twist in Running with Wind and Hail of Blows. You can agree or disagree with the best in slot design change but the game has clearly moved away from it.



Too early to tell. Also, the number of set bonus items has increased dramatically in the last week. That by nature has already increased build diversity. All the THF Paladins, Barbarians, Fighters and the like have been freed from being tied to Bloodrage to explore these new options. That's good game design.

Rubbish. I said on another thread that we couldn't win the argument here - either we switched out of Chrism or not. If we did, then we'd be fed the line you've just espoused, that it was somehow liberating and good design, and if we didn't then we'd be told it couldn't be that big a deal after all if we still used the item. Neither are fair comment when what has happened is that, without any notice whatsoever, this item has been nerfed beyond any comparable fair balance from the squish. It also conveniently ignores the fact that alternative items are sub-par. Some folks may feel liberated, fine, YMMV. But speaking for myself, I just feel cheated, and there is no dressing that sorry fact up. IF it's intentional.

[Hawkwier]

Well. Looks like it is intended. Confirmed as WAI by a Dev on another thread. Though the logic seems flawed to me, I think SSG have nailed their colours to the mast on this one now.

I don't know about other folks, but I find it very unfair that the Chrism has effectively been over-nerfed to be merely the equivalent of a standard quest item. Maybe I'm "playing wrong", but I generally play standard quests principally for RXP, and raids principally for loot.

So, right now I feel like a mug having ground out raid mats for items that are now no better than equivalent level standard stuff. What this means for raid loot going forward, well, to me at least, why even bother?

I was supportive of the squish. I honestly thought that whilst they wouldn't get everything right first time, that at least they would be fair in assessing where they hadn't. Even had me rethinking hard about my decision not to invest further in the game until U51 had played out. Now? Well nobody likes to be taken for a mug, and that's exactly where SSG have put me right now. I take no comfort that regrettably my initial instinct is being bourne out. U51 is an absolute crossroads for me (was always and is a much bigger negative issue than the squish), and this sort of treatment doesn't bode well. I'm so glad I didn't give them a penny for U50 or bought a ton of points. At least there's that - I might have been taken for an even bigger mug than they already have.

[erethizon]

I don't know about other folks, but I find it very unfair that the Chrism has effectively been over-nerfed to be merely the equivalent of a standard quest item. Maybe I'm "playing wrong", but I generally play standard quests principally for RXP, and raids principally for loot.

I find raid loot so difficult to get that I prefer that it barely be better than regular quest loot to keep most players from being too far behind. That said, I would prefer that regular quest loot be made stronger, rather than raid loot weaker, but either way, it is best if raid loot is just barely better. Ideally, raid loot would be the same but just have a lower minimum level (like the way Ravenloft raid armor is level 28 instead of 29).

[elyone]

Yeah, a small squish seemed warranted, but the stats on this item were overly reduced - especially considering the restriction that most of its benefits only kick in if the character is holding a two-handed weapon. It's essentially a "set bonus" with the other item in the set being any two-handed weapon.