Please fix Mobs in Epic and Legendary Content

[John3000]

Seeing as so much effort is going into PC and Mob stat scaling, might I suggest having a Qualitative look at current Epic and Legendary content.

Why are we still fighting rats, oozes, kobolds, and other mundane mobs at epic and legendary levels ?

What's the point in increasing PC cap levels, if it's just to fight scaled up versions of the same heroic mobs ?

Shouldn't Epics be "Epic" and Legendary be "Legendary" ? Have a look at the mobs you propose and switch+spice them to be appropriate. It'll make Epics and Legendary content feel more memorable.

Cheers

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Seeing as so much effort is going into PC and Mob stat scaling, might I suggest having a Qualitative look at current Epic and Legendary content.

Why are we still fighting rats, oozes, kobolds, and other mundane mobs at epic and legendary levels ?

What's the point in increasing PC cap levels, if it's just to fight scaled up versions of the same heroic mobs ?

Shouldn't Epics be "Epic" and Legendary be "Legendary" ? Have a look at the mobs you propose and switch+spice them to be appropriate. It'll make Epics and Legendary content feel more memorable.

Cheers

I so much agree with this.

And it is related to the nerfs as well.

Epic players SHOULD be able to easily take out normal heroic based monsters.

A Kobold, no matter how many steroids or super soldier formulas you give him is still a heroic monster.

No spell resistance, no special abilities, like teleporting, time stopping, need for special weapons to hurt, no psionic attacks, fear auras, multiple attacks...
or whatever epic makes a true epic monster.

You devs keep worrying about how quickly players take out mundane bags of hit points, and do not provide epic challenges for epic content.
There are a few exceptions, but even those outsiders are really more appropriate for high heroic levels and not really epic monsters.

I do understand the marketing plan.
get two levels o f play for the investment in one dungeon design.

And I admit I like having those two options.
I can play heroic while I am TRing, or epic on my capped end game toons. Nice.

But we are still missing real epic level play.

[Pandjed]

Seeing as so much effort is going into PC and Mob stat scaling, might I suggest having a Qualitative look at current Epic and Legendary content.

Why are we still fighting rats, oozes, kobolds, and other mundane mobs at epic and legendary levels ?

What's the point in increasing PC cap levels, if it's just to fight scaled up versions of the same heroic mobs ?

Shouldn't Epics be "Epic" and Legendary be "Legendary" ? Have a look at the mobs you propose and switch+spice them to be appropriate. It'll make Epics and Legendary content feel more memorable.

Cheers

That's because we run the same content and storylines in epics, obviously. There are exactly 15 epic-only quests in the game, and most of the new "legendary" raids are just continuations of heroic storylines that would absolutely made sense as heroic raids from the narrative standpoint (except Killing Time, maybe). Had a thread here about it.


To change a monster from a quest, you also have to change the narrative of the quest. It does make a difference, if Arraetrikos lieutenant is a kobold. Because then it makes sense that its underlings are kobolds as well, instead of angels with chainsaw-swords. I mean, such angels would look like legendary monsters, but why are they following a kobold who is following an archfiend, hell-bend to use a magic codex for whatever?

Changing story is work, much more work than some scaling. As long as the devs decide to recycle quests for heroic and epic/legendary (which means 2 dungeons with the work of 1.125), the most epic thing your character will ever do is to invade the demonweb to steal Anna from under Lolth's hairy legs. Which has a base level of 24.
Because when you have the split, it's much easier to make a heroic storyline than to explain why the heck your level 6 character is duking it out with demigods. Which bring problems like not duking it out with Hyrsam and that aside from the Formorian King, the raid brings out rather lackluster monsters.

Just saying.

[John3000]

That's because we run the same content and storylines in epics, obviously. There are exactly 15 epic-only quests in the game, and most of the new "legendary" raids are just continuations of heroic storylines that would absolutely made sense as heroic raids from the narrative standpoint (except Killing Time, maybe). Had a thread here about it.


To change a monster from a quest, you also have to change the narrative of the quest. It does make a difference, if Arraetrikos lieutenant is a kobold. Because then it makes sense that its underlings are kobolds as well, instead of angels with chainsaw-swords. I mean, such angels would look like legendary monsters, but why are they following a kobold who is following an archfiend, hell-bend to use a magic codex for whatever?

Changing story is work, much more work than some scaling. As long as the devs decide to recycle quests for heroic and epic/legendary (which means 2 dungeons with the work of 1.125), the most epic thing your character will ever do is to invade the demonweb to steal Anna from under Lolth's hairy legs. Which has a base level of 24.
Because when you have the split, it's much easier to make a heroic storyline than to explain why the heck your level 6 character is duking it out with demigods. Which bring problems like not duking it out with Hyrsam and that aside from the Formorian King, the raid brings out rather lackluster monsters.

Just saying.

Sure changing stuff is work, but then they're paid to work : to develop and maintain an entertaining game that entices it's players. You reap what you sow, so if they want to captivate their players, a little work is expected. :-)

There are way more than enough heroic quests than we need. If they keep intending to bump up level cap, then some effort should be made to propose something memorable.

If level 24 is the summit of epic, then their is no need to go further.

If level 30-40 is the summit, then they should release Legendary content : traverse the planes of existence, hunt down demi-gods, titans, avatars, arch demons, get involved with the politics of the gods, get caught in the middle of a dragon feud/war, etc.... Lots of stuff to do and explore here other than fighting steroid injected rats and dancing kobolds.

Being continually served the same old porridge is boring. Mobs should be level adapted.

My 2 cents...

cheers

[NemesisAlien]

If Arraetrikos lieutenant is a kobold. Because then it makes sense that its underlings are kobolds as well, instead of angels with chainsaw-swords.

Would you settle for a winx koblod?

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Epic players SHOULD be able to easily take out normal heroic based monsters.

I thought it was because of the rules set ?

I don't think that the original creators of Dungeons & Dragons thought of epic levels ?

[John3000]

Would you settle for a winx koblod?

Lol, give 'em a glitterdust aura and OTTO's disco ball sla and could be fun... :-)

though Flying kobolds do exist in the Monstrous Compendium Volume Two as Urds : https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Urd

As to whether they are Epic worthy, that's another question... Perhaps throw in their patron deities and avatars to make it interesting with Raise dead and mass heal sla's... As you easily dispose of the trash, they keep raising and healing them back up.

A little imagination and creativity goes a long way to spice things up and push boring into memorable.

cheers

[John3000]

I thought it was because of the rules set ?

I don't think that the original creators of Dungeons & Dragons thought of epic levels ?

Not sure of that... check out :

https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Epic_level

high level play (>20) was boxed up as early as 1983 in the original D&D box sets :
"Although it was not specifically termed "epic", the rules covered play for characters as high as 25th level. It was quickly followed by the black-boxed Master Set (allowing play up to 36th level) and the gold-boxed Immortals Set (which detailed play beyond 36th level)."

The Green and Black sets seem to come off as Epic content. And the Gold-boxed Immortals set perhaps as Legendary content.

But if you consider AD&D as a completely separate game, then you have this :

https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/w...Level_Handbook

based off 3rd edition rules, including an update booklet to adapt it to 3.5 edition rules.

A few relevant quotes :

"It introduces nine new epic prestige classes: the agent retriever, cosmic descryer, divine emissary, epic infiltrator, guardian paramount, high proselytizer, legendary dreadnought, perfect wight, and union sentinel. "

"It features 46 epic spells: animus blast, animus blizzard, contingent resurrection, create living vault, crown of vermin, damnation, demise unseen, dire winter, dragon knight, dragon strike, dreamscape, eclipse, eidolon, enslave, epic counterspell, epic mage armor, epic repulsion, epic spell reflection, eternal freedom, greater ruin, greater spell resistance, hellball, kinetic control, let go of me, living lightning, lord of nightmares, mass frog, momento mori, mummy dust, nailed to the sky, origin of species: achaierai, peripety, pestilence, rain of fire, raise island, ruin, safe time, soul dominion, soul scry, spell worm, summon behemoth, superb dispelling, time duplicate, vengeful gaze of god, verdigris and verdigris tsunami."

"The Epic Level Handbook introduced the following creatures: abomination (anaxim, atropal, chichimec, dream larva, hecatoncheires, infernal, phaethon, phane, xixecal), behemoth, brachyurus, colossus (stone colossus, flesh colossus, iron colossus), demilich, devastation vermin, advanced dragon, force dragon, prismatic dragon, primal elemental, genius loci, gibbering orb, gloom, golem (mithral golem, adamantine golem), ha-naga, hagunemnon (protean), hoary hunter, hoary steed, hunefer, lavawight, legendary animal (legendary bear, legendary tiger), leshay, living vault, mercane, mu spore, neh-thalggu (brain collector), paragon creature, (paragon mind flayer), prismasaurus, pseudonatural creature (pseudonatural troll), ruin swarm, shadow of the void, shape of eire, sirrush, slaad, white slaad, black slaad, tayellah, thorciasid, elder titan, elder treant, umbral blot (blackball), uvuudaum, vermiurge, winterwight, and worm that walks.

The monsters in this sourcebook primarily range from challenge rating 21 to 39, with an average of 27.4"

As far as Legendary Mobs are concerned, we have :

"At the high end, few appear in the 40s (devestation spider, devistation spider, old prismatic dragon) and two in the 50s (the CR 50 devestation beetle, and the CR 57 hecatoncheires).

Even more powerful are the eldest categories of the CR 59 great wyrm force dragon and CR 66 greay wyrm prismatic dragon, with this sourcebook introducing a new "Colossal+" size category to accomodate them. The advanced dragon rules also allow for unlimited further progression for all types of true dragon."


Lots of materiel to draw inspiration from.

cheers

[John3000]

Any news on what type of level 30 to 40 mobs we'll be fighting yet ? Still Heroic Mobs or is cool legendary stuff on it's way ?

Cheers