Biggest "Bait and Switch" in DDO history

[Arctigis]

The intention is for these to be fully offsetting so net impact on player power should be 0.

You need to think about this a bit more.

1) The nerf to nukers and melee is not the same. They will need to adjust way more than saves and HP.
2) The absolute power of pastlives and reaper points is exactly the same. This means they will contribute
proportionally more to total character power. This will be exacerbated in U51 when PLs can contribute
up to an additional 9 destiny points.
3) You and others keep promulgating the above. No dev has confirmed that this will indeed actually be the
case. We'll need to wait for the next preview to see what progress has been made.

[Vua]

Here's your reply.

Calling this a nerf doesn't make sense. Would you (and the rest of the people who are saying this) consider it a nerf if they'd come out with a new adventure pack with gear that was better than Feywild & Sharn?

It was (and still will be) best-in-slot for level and the effort to get it. It just won't have the same big numbers. If you play this game because you love big numbers, well have I got a new game for you: Microsoft Excel. You can open up a spreadsheet and make big numbers to your heart's content for hours on end.

You guys can keep searching for words to call this but nerf still works. Not every class is going to lose equal amounts of power. Not all mobs are going to go down by the same amount, especially in reaper. And if someone plays this game to see big numbers and is now ****ed, they have every right to be. It's not our game so we don't make the calls. But we don't have to be happy about it or continue to pay for it.

[Stormraiser]

What?

They're actually nerfing all the Sharn, Feywild and Ravenloft gear people have farmed?

That's going to seriously anger a lot of "Casual Players" who put in time AND Money buying those EXPANSIONS to get that gear!

The Grinders will just continue to grind the next paradigm - They stopped farming Ravenloft when Sharn came out and they stopped farming Sharn when Feywild came out!

The Grinders will grind out whatever the new quests are to get whatever the new gear is in a week or two whilst the Casuals who may have got 3 or 4 good items in the last 6 months are left with their work taken away!

And I'm not talking about players who play once a month or even once a week when they get a little time to play here - I'm talking about players who play daily but just happen to play more casually and don't make the game a PURE GRIND!

-

This is the problem with Nerfs - They don't do anything to really hurt the people who blow through the game!
They only hurt the people who don't!

-

When Reaper was introduced I did something I didn't think I was ever going to do....I QUIT DDO!
Yes I came back but it was approx 18 months later and since I've been back I've found the game much much more difficult to PLAY!
Why?
Because everyone's now running Reaper - Which I was afraid of in the first place!
If I want to play a decent amount of quests a day I have to either run Reaper where my characters are completely USELESS or be able to SOLO Epic Hard?
Epic Normal apart from a handful of quests just isn't worth the time taken and if I'm Running EH/EN I have to be able to start SOLO or I'm never getting a group together!
So I have to be able to Solo E-H which for most of my characters isn't happening past VoN3/4, Spies etc. until Lvl 28/29 NOW!
And even then at 28/29 I can maybe solo a couple of GH Quests on EH - Certainly not anything higher level than that!
-
I was running a Lvl 27 Character yesterday in Borderlands and even there I couldn't go up to EE until the 6th quest when people actually started joining me!
You know how long I'd have to wait to get a Borderlands group up on anything less than R1 if I put up the LFM and didn't START Solo?
And no this wasn't on Wayfinder - I was playing on Sarlona! Trying to get that character to lvl 30 so I can TR him before this Massive Nerf happens!

Why is it you're useless at reaper?

People put up groups for what they want to play. You can put up groups for normal or casual or whatever you want. As you mentioned most people won't join those groups because they are capable of completing R1 quests...Even on first life characters...

This is like someone asking to play team basketball on a 4 foot rim. Either learn to shoot on on a regular rim with other players, or play by yourself on the special rim.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

I will never spend any more money on expansion packs! I purchased the last two highest tiered packs, Fey and Sharn. I know I didn't need the biggest but I really liked what I saw.

One of the reason I buy packs is for the ability to farm for the new gears, Yes I paid because of the new gears!

I know SSG will hide behind the EULA and other will say "No no it's a good thing" But Dagg is the master of his wallet.

[slarden]

You need to think about this a bit more.

1) The nerf to nukers and melee is not the same. They will need to adjust way more than saves and HP.

They did say they hadn't finished all the adjustments and this was a summary lynnabel gave from the first round. Sounds like they agree with you.

U50 Preview 1: Endgame Itemization Adjustments - Page 2 (ddo.com)

You need to think about this a bit more.

2) The absolute power of pastlives and reaper points is exactly the same. This means they will contribute
proportionally more to total character power. This will be exacerbated in U51 when PLs can contribute
up to an additional 9 destiny points.

Agree, as a percentage those things contribute more since they aren't changing and gear is. The same is true with enhancement trees and initially epic desinties. Since reaper scaling also isn't changing I think these largely offset for people running reaper. The benefits are known quantities and so is reaper scaling.

You and others keep promulgating the above. No dev has confirmed that this will indeed actually be the
case. We'll need to wait for the next preview to see what progress has been made.

This is a direct quote from the itemization thread. It could be others see nerfage in this quote - I see neutral stat squish.

With those two challenges in mind, we are aiming to equalize and reduce the power level of items found in end game content, and adjust the power level of monsters at end game to match.


Given that each monster in our game has different stats and therefore a different starting point, it is hard for us to tell you exactly where each number will end up, but we can give out some comparisons to help demonstrate how dramatic this change will be. For example, Monsters across all of Epics will have 6 fewer Saving Throws, and Monsters at Endgame specifically will instead have 16 fewer saves. This also does not include our current planned removal of Epic Resilience, which will remove an additional 6 saving throws, for a total reduction of 22.


Monsters will not just be losing saving throws. The Legendary Tier II buff corresponded to 150% Fortification Bypass, 60 Attack Bonus, and 10 Spell Penetration, as well as a whole host of other offensive and defensive buffs designed to make them hit harder and take more hits. We hope that our monster rescaling ends up making content feel more realistic and more accessible, and are able to do more adjustments if necessary.


Our long term goals with DDO involve providing a smooth and exciting leveling experience across all levels and difficulties, not just from 1 to 20. This change allows us to provide a smoother leveling curve by removing the large jump in power at level 29.
Future Proof Design -One of the biggest benefits of this change is how future proof it is. We will only need to do an endgame adjustment like this once, and then it's largely done and we can continue onwards into the future with a better end game.

[Jerevth]

You guys can keep searching for words to call this but nerf still works. Not every class is going to lose equal amounts of power. Not all mobs are going to go down by the same amount, especially in reaper. And if someone plays this game to see big numbers and is now ****ed, they have every right to be. It's not our game so we don't make the calls. But we don't have to be happy about it or continue to pay for it.

Nerf always carried the connotation of being an excessive reduction in capability on the player side for an aspect of the game.
This seems (yet to be proven) more like a change where the ration remains relatively the same. Damage in: HP out.

If someone is unable to cope with a game where they can't get their inflated numbers anymore but the rational effect remains the same, their mental flexibility is ossified? That argument just seems weak to me.
Stick around until they put the updates in, though, and see if your coping skills are still viable, at least?

[Vua]

Nerf always carried the connotation of being an excessive reduction in capability on the player side for an aspect of the game.
This seems (yet to be proven) more like a change where the ration remains relatively the same. Damage in: HP out.

If someone is unable to cope with a game where they can't get their inflated numbers anymore but the rational effect remains the same, their mental flexibility is ossified? That argument just seems weak to me.
Stick around until they put the updates in, though, and see if your coping skills are still viable, at least?

I'm not leaving because of big numbers. I was happy when the cap was 10 and you could only get race restricted+5 stat items on bonus loot weekends. What I said was someone has the right to leave over that if they feel that way. And Mr Spreadsheet shouldn't be making fun of them for it. I'm leaving. I have another game to play that starts 3 days before my VIP expires so it's a good time to take a break. They can work on the adjustments and if I'm ok with them I'm sure I'll be back someday. But I'm only paying for 1 game at a time and I don't feel like spending here right now.

[Enderoc]

Why is it you're useless at reaper?

People put up groups for what they want to play. You can put up groups for normal or casual or whatever you want. As you mentioned most people won't join those groups because they are capable of completing R1 quests...Even on first life characters...
.

Anyone running first life reaper with starter and random gear are running quests the build would specifically excel at in its little niche.

No tomes, no ubber gear... they are not soloing every quest on reaper I assure you.

And most the videos you see of people doing that are low level. Once they go higher watch how they are always full party running behind everyone casting/ranged lol

That or hit and run/heal ad nauseum until someone else takes aggro.

The first life reaper player is a true kobold, if he wasnt he is a wasted inventory slot.

[droid327]

It's not a nerf. It's like if a country went from metric to imperial, and someone complained they had to go slower now because the speed limit said 60 instead of 100

It's not a bait and switch because no one ever promised that sharn or fey gear would be more powerful than RL. They released the items as they were, people acquired them (and got years of use, too), and they still are going to be just as powerful as before, against the adjusted enemies. If they still are the best option for you after the patch, then you're set. If some RL gear is s better option, then that's an upgrade so you have no complaint. Plus it's no different than if they just released better gear in a new pack, except you already paid for it...

No one ever has an entitlement to gear being bad or staying bad, or to gear being BIS for any length of time if you assumed that, then you're baiting and switching yourself

[TedSandyman]

This is definitely NOT a bait and switch.

A bait and switch would be if you purchased "Sharn" but then they say "Well ... we can't really sell anymore Sharns, but here, have this Ravenloft. It is just as good and has flying vampire heads."

An unwritten rule, that I thought didn't need writing, and it might actually be in the fine print, is that "If you buy an expansion, anything in that expansion may get changed moving forward because this is a dynamic game."

It is very hard for me to believe that anyone who has played this game for any amount of time doesn't know that change is part of the game. And if you know change happens, you cant really cry bait and switch when the changes occur.

It seems to me that the real complaint runs something like this:

"I paid for content and I understand that the content might change, but I don't like these changes, therefore I will complain that you cheated me."

Usually when someone says "no nerf" what they really mean is, don't nerf my class.

But I hope everyone can see that if power isn't occasionally reeled in, the game will become so stupidly easy that it will become boring to everyone and will probably die.

You can simply keep adding hit points to monsters or creating champions and reapers, or nerfing healing. These kludges work for a bit, but the problem is you keep having to add to them if you don't adjust the thing that is causing them to be needed in the first place, the power-creep.

You can just add these nonsensical things to make the game harder to keep up with power creep but you will need more and more. What is next? Super reapers (yeah, some were added to hardcore) or maybe reapers that are also champions. How about R11 where there is no healing at all and shrines don't work.

A game needs some challenge or it isn't worth playing. But adding extreme HP monsters, or large mobs of monsters every few meters, stupid nonsensical restrictions, or super monsters isn't the answer.

This is all the developers are trying to do, to balance the game out in some places that need it. This is no bait and switch. It's just honest, painful, but necessary changes to keep the game playable.

My advice for anyone who is really, really upset at these changes is to simply wait and see. Complain for sure, user feedback is important. But the changes are almost definitely going through. At this point, fighting it isn't going to stop it.

My prediction is that these changes will result in some unforeseen super-build and that in six months, when the devs are nerfing the super-build, many of the same people complaining today will be complaining about the nerfs to the super-build and swearing they will quit if the changes made today, that they are now fighting so hard against, are not left in place.

[AbyssalMage]

Nerf always carried the connotation of being an excessive reduction in capability on the player side for an aspect of the game.
This seems (yet to be proven) more like a change where the ration remains relatively the same. Damage in: HP out.

If someone is unable to cope with a game where they can't get their inflated numbers anymore but the rational effect remains the same, their mental flexibility is ossified? That argument just seems weak to me.
Stick around until they put the updates in, though, and see if your coping skills are still viable, at least?

I can only speak about myself.

Nerf - To remove or reduce the ability of something. To make something arbitrarily more difficult. To change an established mechanic because it no longer serves a developers vision.

Currently from all previews and developer input the opposite is more accurate for U50/51. It is also aligned with past nerfs to PrE's, Feats, classes, and itemization. We were told in varying ways that they "were balancing the changes with the game." The developers routinely change DDO's definition of "balanced." What the developers consider balanced changes from team to team, year to year, and update to update. There is no continuity which means this very discussion will occur again. Especially when they decide they need to raise the level cap once again because the current crop of developers failed (this is a statement, not a hypothetical) to implement and move the cap from 30 to 40.

I supported the move from 20 to 30 because in 3.0/3.5 such things were possible. Then again I thought developers would have true "epic" stories. Not repeated copy/paste with stat inflation. We should be visiting, and saving (or meddling with), The Planes of Eberron (and the multi-verse thanks to MotU and The Codex).

Ok, /deleted a wall of text. I kept on jumping on my soap box.

[OfElectricMen]

Lol, that's not a bait & switch.

[Stormraiser]

Anyone running first life reaper with starter and random gear are running quests the build would specifically excel at in its little niche.

No tomes, no ubber gear... they are not soloing every quest on reaper I assure you.

And most the videos you see of people doing that are low level. Once they go higher watch how they are always full party running behind everyone casting/ranged lol

That or hit and run/heal ad nauseum until someone else takes aggro.

The first life reaper player is a true kobold, if he wasnt he is a wasted inventory slot.

Do you realize that before reaper, most people ran elite fairly easily? This person who has been playing for multiple years is struggling with hard difficulty. To put this in perspective, this person may have spent more time posting on the forums in these years then some people who went 1-30 in the last hardcore server. So you can't claim he new and has no playing experience.

Also, why are you assuming the poster in question has no gear and no tomes? Ask him how many characters he has in total and he will tell you.

[Chai]

The "bait and switch" part is easily explained. Now amount of hilarious analogies which do not address the actual subject matter refutes this.

People saw the high increase in character power in Ravenloft gear and paid to attain it more quickly.
People then saw the another increase in gear based character power in Sharn/Feywild and paid to attain that more quickly.
People then fed their once inferior Ravenloft sets to their sentient stones.
Now Ravenloft sets will be optimal again.
Had Ravenloft been optimal the entire time (same power level as sharn/feywild) the gear power incentive to buy later expansions would not have existed.

From a balance perspective, I'm all for the top down nerf that flattens character power increase as stated in other threads, but from a marketing perspective its easy to see how those who purchased faster character power acquisition multiple times are peeved. When you choose a p2w revenue model you lie in the bed you made as far as these types of decisions are concerned. It was absolutely needed to incentivize xpac purchases and chest re-rolls using power creep in order to continue monetizing the game through this type of revenue model. Changing those parameters after the money is made using that incentive, is straight down the checklist, first ballot hall of fame, bait and switch. This is not some scenario where they now only realized power creep got out of hand, or where they only now have the means to correct it. Its been obvious to anyone objectively minded that this has been an increasing issue for quite a few years now. The means to correct it existed when itemizing every single piece of new content, which increased in power far more often than kept power same/similar.

[FranOhmsford]

Also, why are you assuming the poster in question has no gear and no tomes? Ask him how many characters he has in total and he will tell you.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...now-your-Enemy

btw the character I was on was Keltenn on Sarlona - He's not fully tomed up but he is 4th Life.

Keltenn Kaltenson {Human}
1st Life: 20 HotD Paladin
2nd Life: 20 Paladin/Clr/Ftr 12/7/1
3rd Life: 20 Cleric 14 / Paladin 6
4th Life: 30 PDK Cleric 11 / Warlock 6 / Ftr 3
+4 Strength, Jump
+3 Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, Balance, Concentration,
Heal, Intimidate
+2 Diplo, Perform
+1 Hide, Spellcraft

He only has 3 destinies {the divine destinies} capped btw and is 2 ranks away from capping GMoF.
Lvl 26 to 30 was run while earning Exalted Angel and GMoF Destiny XP.

I have characters that CAN Cope with EH right now but because Keltenn was TRd from 3rd to 4th Life before Reaper was introduced and he was already Lvl 26 when Reaper was introduced his gear is no longer up to snuff and he's utterly gimped!

Pre Reaper I never had any problems getting groups in Epics - I just ran EH/EN Dailies.

Post Reaper it's a different story - Especially as the Devs decided to also hammer repeat xp from Dailies!

He's now back to Lvl 30 and will be TRd as soon as I get another 38 seeds.

[Stormraiser]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...now-your-Enemy

btw the character I was on was Keltenn on Sarlona - He's not fully tomed up but he is 4th Life.

Keltenn Kaltenson {Human}
1st Life: 20 HotD Paladin
2nd Life: 20 Paladin/Clr/Ftr 12/7/1
3rd Life: 20 Cleric 14 / Paladin 6
4th Life: 30 PDK Cleric 11 / Warlock 6 / Ftr 3
+4 Strength, Jump
+3 Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, Balance, Concentration,
Heal, Intimidate
+2 Diplo, Perform
+1 Hide, Spellcraft

He only has 3 destinies {the divine destinies} capped btw and is 2 ranks away from capping GMoF.
Lvl 26 to 30 was run while earning Exalted Angel and GMoF Destiny XP.

I have characters that CAN Cope with EH right now but because Keltenn was TRd from 3rd to 4th Life before Reaper was introduced and he was already Lvl 26 when Reaper was introduced his gear is no longer up to snuff and he's utterly gimped!

Pre Reaper I never had any problems getting groups in Epics - I just ran EH/EN Dailies.

Post Reaper it's a different story - Especially as the Devs decided to also hammer repeat xp from Dailies!

He's now back to Lvl 30 and will be TRd as soon as I get another 38 seeds.

Prey tell, how many characters do you have in total that have TRed at least once?

Why are you blaming reaper on the character who's gear is completely outdated, playing in a terrible build?

At this point, we have to agree it's user error, no? Even people on the other forum tried to help you with good builds and that did not work out.

[Mininin67]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...now-your-Enemy

Pre Reaper I never had any problems getting groups in Epics - I just ran EH/EN Dailies.

Post Reaper it's a different story - Especially as the Devs decided to also hammer repeat xp from Dailies!

To me your issue is not reaper it is the fact they messed with Optional XPS, for a healthier player base because of variety of quests other than Dailies, not because they could not or would not fix WK, with the promise that Optional XPS would be looked at a later date. Pssssst that later date has come and gone for some.

Like many promises before and after will not be kept.

[Valerianus]

To me your issue is not reaper it is the fact they messed with Optional XPS, for a healthier player base because of variety of quests other than Dailies, not because they could not or would not fix WK, with the promise that Optional XPS would be looked at a later date. Pssssst that later date has come and gone for some.

Like many promises before and after will not be kept.

+1

said the same many times, nerfs are hurting those who have\play less and usually are the "nerf\balance" crowd shooting themselves in the foot without even realizing it, and don't touch those who have\play more, the imaginary target of "nerf\balance". can't slow down the grind for the players who are done with it lol why so many players are missing this simple no-brainer fact. i'd better specify, i'm not talking about Fran, i'm talking about no one in particular, just some general trend i see around the forum.

[Hawkwier]

Of course U50/51 can fairly be characterised as representing both a nerf and bait and switch.

U50 is a nerf to player power. The only question is whether that nerf will be matched by a compensatory nerf to mobs/environment to effectively remove its impact. The odds are not good IMO, certainly not on first try over the short-term, but one lives in hope.

Many folks bought points and expansions on the basis of increased power, a great deal of that gear-based. Some may have felt compelled to do so in order to "keep up". The notion that increased power in gear was not a significant part of the sales proposition over many years is nonsensical to me. It is likely for many to be the biggest single factor in replaying quests. Loot farming is a thing for a reason. Expectations were set and reinforced over extended periods, and folks put time and money into the game based on those established expectations. Expectations that are now significantly invalidated, and replaced with, at best, uncertainty.

I reckon there is a question for SSG, incidentally, on what they do to sell more power in future as part of any proposition for U52+. For example, like tomes where some may prove valuable only every +2 stats, buying L34 quests may not be worthwhile, and waiting for L36 quests with more significant power increment may turn out to be be a valid purchase strategy for those on a budget. For some, this may become a key consideration in their purchasing strategy. OTOH, any significant power increase beyond the now established curve will likely be viewed with significant scepticism in the expectation that a nerf must surely follow - no doubt in part pressed for on the forums by those recognising any such deviation, which would be reasonable in such circumstances IMO.

Another related issue is time. How long will it take to establish any new cap and build the necessary supporting quests accordingly? If too slow then folks may lose interest due to perceived lack of progression, and going for cap early then backfilling likely won't be all that enticing if folks already have say L40 gear. And if the incentive to farm is stifled, what are players meant to do with their time which used to be taken up with their loot farms? Just more diminishing returns on RXP and PLs? Compared to those time sinks, the inflated gear stats and consequent farming, generally represented a better investment in progressing toon power.

Anyway, whilst interesting to consider, I digress - The changes may or may not be good for the game and/or the player base. That remains to be seen IMO. We are currently cursed to live in uncertain times.

It is however absolutely clear that terms such as nerf and bait and switch are reasonable to use in the current context. Dancing on pin-heads over the fair use of such terminology is merely a distraction and helps advance nothing, whether you are for or against the prospective changes.

They may be emotive terms. Some folks may not like that. But they are fair use here nevertheless IMO.

Due to diminished enthusiasm, I've hardly played DDO at all over the past couple of weeks now (was playing pretty much daily since November (LOL - I even missed out on a free jewellers tool kit last week!)) and have downloaded another game this week. I'm not quitting at this point, but I won't be spending any money, and probably very little time either now, on DDO until I'm satisfied much of the current uncertainty around the game is settled, and that I like the look of the settled outcome. The risk, for SSG, is that by the time that happens I may have lost my personal perception of sunk-investment in the game which in part keeps me tied to it, and it becomes easy to just quit for some displaced activity. I'm not there yet though, and at the end of the day I'm only one customer anyway. Nevertheless it is one small but manifest example of at least certain short term revenue impact and potentially longer term too as a direct result of where SSG have chosen to take things to date. YMMV.

Vent over.

[Karthunk]

Please don't use phrases that you don't understand the definition of. These patches are not bait and switch.