Biggest "Bait and Switch" in DDO history

[Airmaiden]

Update 50-51 is the biggest "Bait and Switch" in DDO history.

If All the named items were level in power from RL, Sharn, Fey etc, there would be little to no grinding/ re-rolls, so what did DDO do?.........power creep / gear progression as one would expect, then 5 years later, DDO decides to take all those named items and nerf them back to 2015 content.

Having said this and stating my disapproval of DDO's usual "Bait and Switch" routine, if done right, this could be interesting ( little to no faith that it will be done correctly, and think DDO players will pay the brunt of this kerfuffle for the next 6-12 months) to pretty much have a new game to learn, gear Tetris ( unfortunately I deleted most if not all my RL gear) and new / redone ED's.


Raise a toast to DDO 2021!!!.......maybe

[FranOhmsford]

What?

They're actually nerfing all the Sharn, Feywild and Ravenloft gear people have farmed?

That's going to seriously anger a lot of "Casual Players" who put in time AND Money buying those EXPANSIONS to get that gear!

The Grinders will just continue to grind the next paradigm - They stopped farming Ravenloft when Sharn came out and they stopped farming Sharn when Feywild came out!

The Grinders will grind out whatever the new quests are to get whatever the new gear is in a week or two whilst the Casuals who may have got 3 or 4 good items in the last 6 months are left with their work taken away!

And I'm not talking about players who play once a month or even once a week when they get a little time to play here - I'm talking about players who play daily but just happen to play more casually and don't make the game a PURE GRIND!

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This is the problem with Nerfs - They don't do anything to really hurt the people who blow through the game!
They only hurt the people who don't!

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When Reaper was introduced I did something I didn't think I was ever going to do....I QUIT DDO!
Yes I came back but it was approx 18 months later and since I've been back I've found the game much much more difficult to PLAY!
Why?
Because everyone's now running Reaper - Which I was afraid of in the first place!
If I want to play a decent amount of quests a day I have to either run Reaper where my characters are completely USELESS or be able to SOLO Epic Hard?
Epic Normal apart from a handful of quests just isn't worth the time taken and if I'm Running EH/EN I have to be able to start SOLO or I'm never getting a group together!
So I have to be able to Solo E-H which for most of my characters isn't happening past VoN3/4, Spies etc. until Lvl 28/29 NOW!
And even then at 28/29 I can maybe solo a couple of GH Quests on EH - Certainly not anything higher level than that!
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I was running a Lvl 27 Character yesterday in Borderlands and even there I couldn't go up to EE until the 6th quest when people actually started joining me!
You know how long I'd have to wait to get a Borderlands group up on anything less than R1 if I put up the LFM and didn't START Solo?
And no this wasn't on Wayfinder - I was playing on Sarlona! Trying to get that character to lvl 30 so I can TR him before this Massive Nerf happens!

[slarden]

if done right, this could be interesting

This is what I am thinking - looking forward to trying some new builds that wouldn't have been viable prior to the U51 ED changes.

As for U50 it's a stat squish with enemy power and player coming down equally in theory - not too worried about it and a great player like yourself won't be too impacted. I am sure there will be some enemies over-tuned and under-tuned and it will take some time to work out all the issues. I'll probably drop 2 skulls when soloing after U50 so I can assess where the over-tuned enemies are.

If history repeats the player community will adapt quickly ot U51 and there will be some new broken builds that need to be adjusted down.

[Oliphant]

Scope of the changes sound beyond anything I've seen before on DDO. Enhancement pass was the nearest I can recall. But this is radical gear overhaul paired with complete destiny revamp and unpopular level increase in the works. Jeez, sounds volatile.

[Memnir]

[droid327]

What?

They're actually nerfing all the Sharn, Feywild and Ravenloft gear people have farmed?

They aren't, at all

They're recalibrating endgame so that you reach the same level of efficacy at a lower stat number. They're basically just smoothing out the big spike at L29 right now, so progression is more linear from 20-30

The recalibration also involves normalizing older L29 gear, but since they're currently under powered, it's more like RL gear is being buffed up to sharn/fey, not the other way around

[Vish]

im going to be a bard with EIN!

and swashbuckle handwraps

and sing songs while scattering lotus flowers

itll be a whole New Age

[Arctigis]

They aren't, at all

They're recalibrating endgame so that you reach the same level of efficacy at a lower stat number. They're basically just smoothing out the big spike at L29 right now, so progression is more linear from 20-30

The recalibration also involves normalizing older L29 gear, but since they're currently under powered, it's more like RL gear is being buffed up to sharn/fey, not the other way around

I think the point is that they buffed gear in RL then Sharn and FW in order to make those expansions more
attractive. They are now retroactively adjusting gear to some internal gradient such that it's all pretty much
the same. This is the bait and switch. Those saying that the game will be adjusted so there is no net
change to players really need to think about that statement a lot harder.

They could have buffed L20 - L27 epic gear to the Sharn curve and moved RL to L28. They could
then have had whatever gear progression they liked for L30+. It's just numbers after all. Buffing low
level epic gear would have helped those complaining that the transition from heroic to epic is too large.

As it stands, the power of gear to catch up more casual players to the vet. curve is now diminished. The
power of all pastlives and reaper points is the same and therefore relatively more powerful.

EDIT: And linear gear scaling? how boring is that. Might as well give all characters equipment at L1 that
scales every time one levels.

[SheIsMiiiiiiinnnne]

You got to ask youself

"What's brown and sticky"

Answer A: U50 & U51
Answer B: A stick

[FranOhmsford]

They aren't, at all

They're recalibrating endgame so that you reach the same level of efficacy at a lower stat number. They're basically just smoothing out the big spike at L29 right now, so progression is more linear from 20-30

The recalibration also involves normalizing older L29 gear, but since they're currently under powered, it's more like RL gear is being buffed up to sharn/fey, not the other way around

OK So Ravenloft's getting a buff but what about Necropolis, Storm Horns, Gianthold, High Road, Wheloon, Caught in the Web?

And are we going to see the ridiculous 8.25million xp requirement to get from 20-30 reduced significantly now the Devs are adding more levels on top?

[slarden]

OK So Ravenloft's getting a buff but what about Necropolis, Storm Horns, Gianthold, High Road, Wheloon, Caught in the Web?

And are we going to see the ridiculous 8.25million xp requirement to get from 20-30 reduced significantly now the Devs are adding more levels on top?

They are trying to smooth out the curve from 19-30 so all of those quests will have enemy power reduced and it sounds like lower level epics will have the power reduced more. Player power is being reduced by an equal amount.

With U50 much of the old epic gear (seal, shard, scroll) is being updated with a simplified crafting system: U50 Preview 1: Scroll/Seal/Shard Loot Revamp (ddo.com)

[Airmaiden]

They aren't, at all

They're recalibrating endgame so that you reach the same level of efficacy at a lower stat number. They're basically just smoothing out the big spike at L29 right now, so progression is more linear from 20-30

The recalibration also involves normalizing older L29 gear, but since they're currently under powered, it's more like RL gear is being buffed up to sharn/fey, not the other way around

They are nerfing gear.......and NO, RL gear is not getting a buff (it will just be brought to the same crappy numbers as Sharn / Fey gear). The numbers are all dropping!

The point of this post is to state that there would be little to no grinding / re-rolling/ buying the pre-order packs if the gear was the same power, thus "Bait and Switch"........Would be like selling you a high end sports car, then 5 years later, replacing it with a $500.00 piece of $%^$ . And then you coming on here stating " it is actually a buff because everyone has pieces of %^$@.

[AustrianDeathMachine]

OK So Ravenloft's getting a buff but what about Necropolis, Storm Horns, Gianthold, High Road, Wheloon, Caught in the Web?

And are we going to see the ridiculous 8.25million xp requirement to get from 20-30 reduced significantly now the Devs are adding more levels on top?

If they don't modify the existing XP curve. You will need over 20 million XP for level 40.

[Maatogaeoth]

If they don't modify the existing XP curve. You will need over 20 million XP for level 40.

Good lord... guess I'll go back to my 1-20 grinding out the remaining class/racial past lives and give up on anything epic related when this happens.

[Jerevth]

Is it a bait and switch or really the closest they'll come to a mia culpa and correcting the inflated power curve?
It appears SSG is establishing path for future development in order to regulate gear based on level. Future development should see less OP release, backend nerfs. (I'll change my sig when I'm good and ready, though. Jury needs proof.)
My greatest complaint was the Enhancement trees getting released and then an entire archtype (melee, range, caster) being leveled to compensate for the sins of the tree. (*cough* inquisitive *cough*)
That was a genuine B&S. I think this will help stop the B&S.
Let's face it, based on the discussions about PC*, we're all sick of the B&S.


I'm trying to maintain a positive attitude on the overall plan, WRT U50/51


*PC- Power Creep

[slarden]

They are nerfing gear.......and NO, RL gear is not getting a buff (it will just be brought to the same crappy numbers as Sharn / Fey gear). The numbers are all dropping!

The point of this post is to state that there would be little to no grinding / re-rolling/ buying the pre-order packs if the gear was the same power, thus "Bait and Switch"........Would be like selling you a high end sports car, then 5 years later, replacing it with a $500.00 piece of $%^$ . And then you coming on here stating " it is actually a buff because everyone has pieces of %^$@.

They've been buffing gear and monsters and it creates a problem with the curve when they increase the level cap.

So all the gear you mentioned will have the stats going down but so will enemies and sharn/fey more than ravenloft. The intention is for these to be fully offsetting so net impact on player power should be 0. I am sure there will be issues with some enemeis/quests, but I doubt it will be way off across the board.

The positive side of this - slaver items, cannith crafting and many other items are relevant again so we have a much larger # of items to consider when gearing up. Just the ability to fill in a few missing stats with slavers or cannith crafting is huge for me.

As for the grind, Most of your ravenloft gear was obsolete the day sharn hit. None of the gear you grinded from sharn or fey is obsolete with U50 or U51, instead gear from older raids, ravenloft, old epic gear, etc. is suddenly relevant again. When the level cap is increased sure higher level gear will be better.

[Enderoc]

The beauty of playing solo is you can actually immerse yourself in a story that presents a challenge. I could go way faster through past lives but actually taking my time instead of trying to keep up with a PUG Zerg gained a lot of appreciation of the game, understanding of the storyline, and actually look into what all these collectables I am hoarding is useful for.
I like a good Zerg now and then...but being pulled through content made me before only do those quests as I raced to next reincarnation.
Its not a race...its a progression. Who cares if you are not hitting anything on EE? A lot of named gear can be outmatched by crafting. Get your crafting level high enough and almost everything becomes sentient food.
Put up an LFM like questing LVL X taking my time enjoying the day ...come chill difficulty based on group and I am sure you will build a party quick because most people avoid the zerg

[SheIsMiiiiiiinnnne]

...

So all the gear you mentioned will have the stats going down but so will enemies and sharn/fey more than ravenloft. The intention is for these to be fully offsetting so net impact on player power should be 0. .
..

^Perhaps

...

In the current L29-L30 game, gear is a substantial part of player power, along with knowledge, past lives, reaper points, tomes etc.
This allows players without all the past lives and reaper points and tomes to join in with those who do. With decent gear you can join in R1-R4 quests even if you haven't farmed many reaper points and haven't splurged on tomes, and can have fun and contribute. It is a bit of a crutch and a feeling of satisfaction when you get to L29 and can access your gear. (conversely the Mid L20s before L29 can seem a trudge). And you can pass the gear between your alts as required, allowing you to 'power up' alts if needed, or if ur main is on TR.
Also any raid advertising for L29-L30 can be fairly sure of a certain level of power. (and note folk often swap EDs to fill roles better, something else we will lose)
Currently, imo, the L29-L30 scene is good and fun and has a working dynamic.

Now L29-L30 gear is being reduced to the mundacity of mid L20s. Past lives/reaper points/tomes will become much bigger factors. So the great leveller of outstanding gear at L29-L30 is gone, and this is likely to have impacts on grouping. Good that that the content is being lobotomised to cover for this, but some people may find what they were doing before a lot harder, and some may find what they were being doing before is somewhat trivialised, as the overall player power is changed (gear being just a part of player power). There is no way for the devs to replicate the current situation by adjusting the quests, they can only make best efforts - they will pick an 'average' - those below the average will find content harder than before, those above will find it easier. Hopefully the bulk are in the average zone and will find content much as it was before, as you posited.
This is likely to disperse the player base across difficulties again. Whether we end up with a working dynamic that is fun is hard to say, but it is all a risk, and a risk with no gain is daft.

^Or perhaps not.

How confident are you on zero net effect?
Note playstyles also change the effects of this . E.g. DPS caster are worst affected, I believe, following some in depth testing and analysis on other threads. e.g. here
So I doubt it will be a neutral change as you suggest - the best we can hope for is mostly neutral

[Fefnir_2011]

Here's your reply.

Calling this a nerf doesn't make sense. Would you (and the rest of the people who are saying this) consider it a nerf if they'd come out with a new adventure pack with gear that was better than Feywild & Sharn?

It was (and still will be) best-in-slot for level and the effort to get it. It just won't have the same big numbers. If you play this game because you love big numbers, well have I got a new game for you: Microsoft Excel. You can open up a spreadsheet and make big numbers to your heart's content for hours on end.

[SpartanKiller13]

They are nerfing gear.......and NO, RL gear is not getting a buff (it will just be brought to the same crappy numbers as Sharn / Fey gear). The numbers are all dropping!

The point of this post is to state that there would be little to no grinding / re-rolling/ buying the pre-order packs if the gear was the same power, thus "Bait and Switch"........Would be like selling you a high end sports car, then 5 years later, replacing it with a $500.00 piece of $%^$ . And then you coming on here stating " it is actually a buff because everyone has pieces of %^$@.

I mean if your high-end sports car can drive 200 MPH while everyone else is going 80 MPH, but then regulations change so now your sports car drives 100 MPH while everyone else is going 40 MPH you're still proportionally the same amount faster even though the numbers are lower lol.

Lowering your numbers and the enemy numbers = just lower numbers. Your damage will go down, but so will enemy HP so you kill stuff just as fast.

Grinding/rerolling for Mythic/Reaper bonuses will be there just as much as it is now - or even more so now that M/R bonuses are a larger percentage of your overall stats (given they won't be deflated and your other gear stats will). And more variety = less grinding the same stuff, more grinding the ideal gearpiece which might be from Ravenloft instead of always being Sharn/Feywild lol.

If they don't modify the existing XP curve. You will need over 20 million XP for level 40.

Sure, but quests will give more XP past 30 etc. Same as how Epics takes more XP than Heroics, but it somehow faster!