How to really help new players

[Chacka_DDO]

Thanks for clarifications this was not a suggestion for new players but, to help alts.

Right and exactly this is what I wanted to say account-based progression is ONLY for helping players to play more than one character!
(and for this reason, it is also not a contra argument against account based progression that it doesn't help new players)

But I brought up this point in this thread because I said it is a good FIRST STEP to help new players because it makes the second step MUCH easier and this is to give new players a certain amount of past lives and reaper experience for ALL the characters they might want to play.

I hope it helps you to understand, if not let me know and I may try it differently.

[NotAgainPlease]

let's face it, ddo is brutally new player unfriendly.

The most unfriendly thing I have thus far encountered in DDO is the some of the veterans.

It is strange as a new player having started shortly after the free quest coupon that I seem to be one of the only new players posting that seems to be directed at helping new players.

My initial experience with DDO was a certainly different from what seems to be some people ideas in this thread seem to think.

A slow start speed gave me the time to learn how to move my character and as speed increased I fumbled about a bit as I adjusted to the increased speed. The horse I acquired in Keep on the Borderlands certainly helped in public and the wilderness areas as i searched about for the next quest. My slow mount was more than adequate for me to get around in any situation. I had plenty of guild invites tossed my way randomly from all sorts of people having never met them. I eventually found a home server and joined a guild.

A tutorial on how to utilize the social panel, posting an lfm, where to get potions, wands, scrolls, what UMD is, what to buy and not to buy off the auction house... looking at those quivers, bags, and all those useless legacy augment removal tools..... now that is something as a new player I could have used. There are plenty of more tutorials that would actually impact new players a lot more than some shared progression, shared past lives, and all that nonsense I have no immediate need for it sure seems it would benefit those of you who have been playing for a long time immediately tho. Running R10 or reaper wings is not going to validate me as a player. Putting forth my best effort and being encouraged and given a bit of praise is certainly worth more to me than something that is just handed over to me for doing absolutely nothing to get it.

Respecing could have been a problem I guess if I just jumped into the game without spending some time doing a little YouTube and poking around. There are plenty of resources available to avoid many of these hazards. I found that with a limited amount of races and classes it actually simplified my choices and I had very few problems with my character. I reset some enhancement trees as needed.

I used many of the spreadsheets that were readily available and those from previous hardcore seasons.

I quickly hopped from server to server gaining 400 favor on each and gaining 1600 points rather quickly for my effort. This did not even require me to complete all the level three quests. Purchased the two 99 point expansion packs and then Warlock.

Utilizing a warlock I cleared 3k favor on all servers before finishing Gianthold. This netted me 8k in points. I will been spending them slowly as sales allow me to gain things at a discount. I have no illusions that it will take a bit of time but having favor unlocked Drow, Vet Status I & II, Champion 32pt builds, and Favored Soul on all servers in less than a year I have my sights on unlocking Artificer for my home server. I am average anyone can do this will a little effort.

Free stuff so far it has all been free. Now that code did help a lot. But I am organized, motivated, and have no fear of putting some effort in to get what I want. For a $99 VIP I could have had almost the same amount of points and put in no effort at all and with proper spending had most of the coupon code content.

The adventure packs could be bundled together in a few larger packs much like SSG did the expansion packs to make them more affordable to the new player for cash or points it does not matter to me.

Never had trainer issues thus far.

Inventory has not been an issue thus far for me so I can't relate. I can toss something out pretty easily if need be guild mates will be more than happy to pass it if I need it from my experience with them.

I have several characters now on my home server all running reaper and don't feel a power gap as much as a knowledge gap... pulls up YouTube, and ddowiki before logging. Only play time will close that gap.




I often wonder when does a new player become a player and when does a player become a veteran. Why does SSG need help a veteran when veterans should be helping out the new players and players so they in turn can help out someone else. I clearly have less than most of you and do not feel any need to be helped by SSG.

[Chacka_DDO]

Far too many players use alts for this idea that players are forced to play one.

That players play more than one character ANYHOW is not at all any proof that the current situation doesn't force players to play only one main character.
They do it because there are good reasons to play an alt anyhow for example you can play a raid two times without a raid timer bypass if you have another character available or you can ransack a chest several times and there more rational reasons and last but not least it is also possible that a player is not aware of the fact that it is by far more effective to play only one character or they don't care what is effective...

But this doesn't change the fact that you get your past lives and reaper experience currently only for ONE character and if you start another you have to do it all over again and in the time you play that so-called alt you cannot progress your main character.

And by the way what is "Far too many players"? This is completely dependant on one's opinion and says nothing at all, already ONE can be "far too many" in one's opinion.
Not to mention that you most likely don't have any objective numbers.

All I say is that MORE players than currently would have an incite to play several characters if we would have account-based past lives and I think this is obviously true and even you have to admit it.
Another question is if one wants more players to play several characters, you might not like it but I think this is actually in the interest of SSG and the majority of players.

[Chacka_DDO]

I often wonder when does a new player become a player and when does a player become a veteran. Why does SSG need help a veteran when veterans should be helping out the new players and players so they in turn can help out someone else. I clearly have less than most of you and do not feel any need to be helped by SSG.

Also for me, it is part of the fun of playing a game to figure out how a game works and get things done on my own and I assume many players are like this (seemingly also you)
And I don't think players like you need much more help than me to understand and play DDO, actually, I see some players who started DDO years after me, and in my opinion, they ARE already veterans when it comes to their playing skills.

But my point is when I'm worried about new players is when I see that a new player has never a chance to play on par with a veteran then my personal "fairness alert" tingles and I think about ways to help.
And for this reason, I think a REAL help and not only temporary mitigation of the problem would be to give new players (or casual players who don't have time for past lives, etc.) the option to get a certain amount of character progression for a moderate price so they have the chance to play on par with veterans when it comes to character power.
My experience is that most players want to contribute in a quest but if one player has a super-strong character that basically steamrolls everything they might feel useless and I assume that's not much fun.

[Weemadarthur]

I often wonder when does a new player become a player and when does a player become a veteran. Why does SSG need help a veteran when veterans should be helping out the new players and players so they in turn can help out someone else. I clearly have less than most of you and do not feel any need to be helped by SSG.

Great post and well said. Sorry for snipping most of your post in the quote but as I felt you stated your case well and found nothing in there I wanted to rebut I thought I would just skip to the part I wanted to give an opinion on.

I would say a new player stops being new when they have enough understanding of the game to be able to build and use a character themselves without having to use external sources. In my experience this normally takes 2-3 lives but I have met a few players I would say reached this level of understanding on their 1st life and I know others that have taken far longer. So in that respect I would say 3rd life onward as a rule of thumb.

I would call a player a vet when they have gained enough understanding of the game that they are able to create characters to fulfill a specific role and know the limitations of that build. This could mean being able to make a tank for R10 end game raid play, making a self sustainable solo build or knowing that your current project will never be able to do better than normal difficulty. The key point I would say here is that the player would understand exactly what they were making before the character even took 1st level. At that point I think it would be fair to say that the player has a good enough understanding of game mechanics that they should hold veteran status. In most cases with players I have met it normally takes around a year to get here (there will ofc be huge variations on that same as with the 3rd life no longer being new but this is just as a rule of thumb).

As for vets helping new players I couldn't agree more. The issue here though is for the majority of players they don't knowingly meet many new players. Due to the age of the game and a severe lack of marketing new players are few and far between. Due to this there is an expectation that when someone joins a group they will already be a vet player. At this point the onus is kind of pushed onto the new player to speak up and let the party know they are new and in the rare cases I have witnessed this 90% of the time the party has slowed down and offered plenty of help to the new player.

[Jerevth]

The first few levels of DDO have a thread.
The Korthos story line, Jeets, Celimas, Toaster and Grumpy Mage.
When I got to the harbor and saw them at the table by the Tavern, as trainers, I had an "oh, Wow" moment.

But that thread disappears after, until the Inspired Quarter or Cannith. So they are still there, lurking.

The grind is overwhelming, boring and eternal. Faced with that sense of "never catch-up" it's no surprise.
The day-to-day is static, for the most part. When was the last game changing event? (The Devil Assault? before my time).
SSG should throw in ominous forebodings and cast shadows weeks ahead of an event, then something huge should happen.
Small, random things should have a chance to occur in game- someone stumbles through a bad portal and ends up elsewhere; one of Flimsy's hidden dungeons, or a DA type gauntlet. Maybe an NPC in the wilderness that wasn't there before who needs help.

After a life or two, when faced with the same'old, same'old cycle... kobold needs a new shiny.

(edit- added after rereading)
The difference between new players and potential long time players is mental: "do I want parity soon, or can I endure the grind to attain parity?"
Some people don't care so much, others care a great deal. Some people are willing to pay for the parity (100X Sov II pots and Otto's Boxes) others have more stringent fiscal responsibilities.

The "Leadership" project posted some months ago would help, I think, but the devs have gone silent on that.

[Oxarhamar]

Nope, I did nothing wrong, I was afraid that he would not admit that we have already account-based rewards in DDO and that this is not at all wrong or absurd and for this reason also account-based past lives and reaper experience is NOT at all absurd.



You still don't get the point? The point is that he would be dishonest if he refuses to admit the obvious (we have already account-based rewarding in DDO) if he knows that he would admit at the same time that he is wrong. That's not a lie, I never claimed that it would be only dishonest, that's all



No, this is also not what I meant a lie by omission is when your whole statement gets a different meaning if you intentionally leave something out.



I remind you that I said, "if you are honest you would admit..." the meaning is very similar as if I would say "you cannot else than admit that..." this says not at all that I said in any way he lied to claim that is plain wrong!

I get the point thanks for reminding your mistake who will not admit they are wrong now is you, honestly.

Your ideas are not helpful to new players & it’s a bad idea that is opinion which doesn’t have to agree with yourn to be truthful ????

Not signed

[Oxarhamar]

That players play more than one character ANYHOW is not at all any proof that the current situation doesn't force players to play only one main character.
They do it because there are good reasons to play an alt anyhow for example you can play a raid two times without a raid timer bypass if you have another character available or you can ransack a chest several times and there more rational reasons and last but not least it is also possible that a player is not aware of the fact that it is by far more effective to play only one character or they don't care what is effective...

But this doesn't change the fact that you get your past lives and reaper experience currently only for ONE character and if you start another you have to do it all over again and in the time you play that so-called alt you cannot progress your main character.

And by the way what is "Far too many players"? This is completely dependant on one's opinion and says nothing at all, already ONE can be "far too many" in one's opinion.
Not to mention that you most likely don't have any objective numbers.

All I say is that MORE players than currently would have an incite to play several characters if we would have account-based past lives and I think this is obviously true and even you have to admit it.
Another question is if one wants more players to play several characters, you might not like it but I think this is actually in the interest of SSG and the majority of players.

Absolutely does prove that

Being forced to play one character would be only having one character slot at a time it’s pure hyperbole

No I do not have objective numbers nor do I need them to prove your hyperbole is inaccurate the game doesn’t force only 1 character intact it’s forced more to create multiple characters just for bank toon purposes.

Yes far too many players use alts, even just one player use alts disprove your hyperbole that they are forced not to do so.

I’m glad you keep admitting that you are about helping alts not about new players with this idea



Idea is bad you have to admit that player can have option that is not in agreement with yours

[Oxarhamar]

Right and exactly this is what I wanted to say account-based progression is ONLY for helping players to play more than one character!
(and for this reason, it is also not a contra argument against account based progression that it doesn't help new players)

But I brought up this point in this thread because I said it is a good FIRST STEP to help new players because it makes the second step MUCH easier and this is to give new players a certain amount of past lives and reaper experience for ALL the characters they might want to play.

I hope it helps you to understand, if not let me know and I may try it differently.

No more clarification needed

Still a no vote

No you really don’t need to try differently

Because player disagree does not mean that they don’t understand, can you understand that is the question.

[Bacon_Burger]

I said it is a good FIRST STEP to help new players

100% WRONG

Giving a new player the Easy Button and built-in power creep is the worst thing you can give a new player.


In my personal experience with players I know, the ones that favor this nonsense are the ones that have 1 or 2 completionists, and are tired of the hamster wheel grind. Thus embracing account progression.


Leader-sharing and account progression are the 2 worst ideas for 2021. In-fact I find the concepts cheap and resemble a few other games no one plays anymore,

DDO does not need this garbage

[ShifterThePirate]

Leader-sharing and account progression are the 2 worst ideas for 2021. In-fact I find the concepts cheap and resemble a few other games no one plays anymore,

DDO does not need this garbage

No offense but also the most popular online games at this moment have account progression. I'm not saying it should be in DDO right away. But it's a fact DDO is a very outdated game by design. A lot of new players just aren't used to a game designed like this anymore. They are used to the big popular online games that have been released more recently. These differences of game design causes new players to leave quickly and this won't change by making small changes.

I personally would love to see some form of account progression. It would actually give me a reason to play some alt characters more often because it would also benefit my main toon in some way.

[Aelonwy]

Being forced to play one character would be only having one character slot at a time it’s pure hyperbole

When the majority of other character slots are used for storage... the game might be drastically encouraging main character play.
When most characters taken to level 20 on HC are emptied and deleted or used for storage... the game might be drastically encouraging main character play.
When to maximize the power of a single character could take over 150 lives equaling something beyond 500 MILLION xp... the game might be drastically encouraging main character play.
When any game time NOT spent on maximizing that single character is considered a loss or concern... the game might be drastically encouraging main character play.
When other players with apparently more leisure money than most suggest the best way to have alts is to duo/triple/quad box alts with separate accounts (with obviously separately purchased content/classes/races) while still accruing XP on your main... the game might be drastically encouraging main character play.

If none of these apply to you? great you are an exceptional individual.

Forcing you to play ONE character is hyperbole only if you are a semantics rules-lawyer but if it makes you feel more comfortable... the game might be drastically encouraging main character play.

And now that, that point is made and we can move on...

Would a new player NOT want to roll an alt? You do start out with more than one character slot.

Suggestions that help alts will also eventually help new players because we want to help new players get invested in the game right? We want new players to want to purchase content, races, classes, and character slots. We want them to be excited to play a wide variety of classes and characters. We do NOT want them to see the MASSIVE grind-fest the game has become, get discouraged, and leave without getting invested. Making it so having alts is a worthwhile expenditure of both money and time is a good thing for everyone.

Perhaps the issue is your definition of new player? What is a new player to you? To me a new player is someone that has never reached cap on a single character and/or has played less than a year.

[Bacon_Burger]

wow, people are getting stuck on this account progression. maybe it's time to look at what it really means, and the options for the concept. This forum band-wagon approach to a blatant concept that has yet to be defined is nonsense. Even Aelony, which normally has sound feedback is jumping on that wagon without knowing the parameters of it.


For the poster about "other games" who gives a ratts arse about other games. People need to stop comparing DDO to any other game. we don't fit in their mold, and they don't fit in ours.


NONE of these suggestions, have yet to show any kind "help for the new player" not IMO anywise.

My brother (who is banned from here) has had exact. detailed suggestions for the NEW PLAYER, all great ideas, and totally ignored by the people in their ivory tower in boston. NONE of his ideas involve account progression, as SSG has done a decent job of separating account/server/character rewards.


what I see quite frankly are players posting with a bias.

[Kebtid]

wow, people are getting stuck on this account progression. maybe it's time to look at what it really means, and the options for the concept. This forum band-wagon approach to a blatant concept that has yet to be defined is nonsense. Even Aelony, which normally has sound feedback is jumping on that wagon without knowing the parameters of it.


For the poster about "other games" who gives a ratts arse about other games. People need to stop comparing DDO to any other game. we don't fit in their mold, and they don't fit in ours.


NONE of these suggestions, have yet to show any kind "help for the new player" not IMO anywise.

My brother (who is banned from here) has had exact. detailed suggestions for the NEW PLAYER, all great ideas, and totally ignored by the people in their ivory tower in boston. NONE of his ideas involve account progression, as SSG has done a decent job of separating account/server/character rewards.


what I see quite frankly are players posting with a bias.

Because new players do not engage in forums as ddo forums are rather toxic and consist of alot of back and forth arguing, and new players have to many things to learn at once, from builds to quest to enemies to a vast bilion of crafting systems ddo has to offer.

I have a friend who is a tabletop player for a decade who tried ddo for a week and said its to complicated and the game leveling is to easy that he did not have fun in it, now he plays wow and i dont really try to persuade him, as this game has one of the worst new player supports out of all systems.

Comparing ddo to other games is a good thing, since we can conclude and use what other games use for their approach toward new players.
Look at example ff 14, it puts a weed sprout like tab on your character that makes you visible and presented as new player, so veterans can become your mentor and teach you, which offers rewards for them, and also when others party with you they gain a xp boost.
That makes partying and teaching a new player a pleasant experience and creates comradery and a positive gaming experience.

In ddo when someone new joins my r1 zerg lfm, he/she does not even know what house i am in, yet what quest, nor if it is p2w or free.
We make jokes out of it but its a struggle for new players.

DDO in its core is made for veterans, flowersniffer vets or hardcore vets, as it has nothing to promote me a veteran player to be friendly toward a new player outside of me doing it by myself.

What can be done?
Many many things, first of all, get rid of the bazilion useless crafting systems, flag mechanisms, add a auto teleport to quests option, a prompt clear that someone does not own a quest, chain follows ups removal so that people can freely join, and some kind of xp boost when with a new player (idk check account age or playtime on account, they should have metadata for that).

I can name a 100 other suggestions and all will be based on how other games do things to promote party play with new players, i cannot use a single one from ddo since ddo has none.

[fatherpirate]

Most, not all, of the posts here are to help Vet players advance
alts quickly.
They really could care less about real new players

Ironically, that is one of the reasons why real new players do
not stick around.

Most real new players make it to harbor, check AH
see that it is totally empty of gear their level.
Checks for groups in dungeons they want to do - none
Joins a guild, who's members raid and discuss endgame stuff
which the new player can not use ... and then they leave.
"What happened to so and so? they never log in any more.

etc.

[Stormraiser]

thanks for pointing out a major point, the comparison with other games.

what i wanted to talk about, i'm fine with paying for a product you use, i'm fine with grinding gear, the point is...

this.
game.
is.
15.
years.
old.

it's fair to grind gear for power, or to grind for power in general, but walking, respec, etc, it's not power! and not even QoL!

in my very humble opinion, it should be priority to make it looking smooth and welcoming to new players, cause it's already too late! imho, given the peculiar features of ddo, the whole 1st life a player is playing is a tutorial, a learning and exploring experience. it must flow without hindrances from the start till the end or they will not waste time and money on an old game they installed and tried just because is branded d&d. hook them up please! make them want to stay with us!


(i must spread rep around before givin to Aelonwy again)

There's no reason Celimus can't cast a 1 hour haste spell on you if you complete the grotto.

[Aelonwy]

Even Aelony, which normally has sound feedback is jumping on that wagon without knowing the parameters of it.

Look carefully. I did not endorse Chakka's idea explicitly I just took umbrage with the idea that DDO does not highly encourage single character investment, and conversely discourages multi-character investment just because you can have multiple character slots.

Just because you can have multiple character slots doesn't mean most people use most of them for other characters... they are mostly used as storage.

I do think DDO has gone too dang far in single character stackable power when you can have 150 lives on a single character and it takes more than 500 Million XP to achieve it. That's insane, and its only going to get worse because you know... or should expect that Legendary TR is coming, and likely more racial lives, eventually Iconic Sorc I'm sure, and doubtless more I cannot imagine. TR is the most unique and simultaneously the most problematic mechanic of this game.

[ShifterThePirate]

For the poster about "other games" who gives a ratts arse about other games. People need to stop comparing DDO to any other game. we don't fit in their mold, and they don't fit in ours.

Wow you're really stubborn... First of all where do you think new players are coming from? Yes other games! It's not about comparing them it's about looking at what makes other games succesful and what gamers want from a 2021 game. Gaming evolves, new generations of people start gaming and the needs of gamers changes. So why should you care about other games when you try to win yourself new players? Because a 15 year old MMO that has been technical and gameplay wise stuck in the past is NOT what they want to play. DDO has to evolve if it wants to attract new players.

Account Progression is still a very broad term. It can be implemented in many different ways. It doesn't even have to do anything with past lives or reaper xp.

[Jerevth]

Most, not all, of the posts here are to help Vet players advance
alts quickly.
They really could care less about real new players

Ironically, that is one of the reasons why real new players do
not stick around.

Most real new players make it to harbor, check AH
see that it is totally empty of gear their level.
Checks for groups in dungeons they want to do - none
Joins a guild, who's members raid and discuss endgame stuff
which the new player can not use ... and then they leave.
"What happened to so and so? they never log in any more.

etc.

I think you don't give new players enough credit.
They will eventually realize what we already know. This game is about grinding lives out. If they haven't spent enough money to feel invested, when they hit that realization they may drop out because they begin to understand the huge amount of resources needed to achieve what feels like parity. If they have spent enough money to feel invested then they may stay, anyway, but then it becomes a cost/benefit cycle as well as a TR cycle.

There will be no fix that does not benefit every player to some degree.

[Aelonwy]

The best suggestion I ever saw for alts, and apologies to whomever originally posted it because I don't remember, but the best suggestion was for every 3 of the same life you get on one character you should get one copy of that life on all your alts on that account and that past life bonus should count towards getting the same on another character. So for example if character A gets 3x paladin past life so characters B,C, and D get one paladin past life. Character B now makes an effort to get 2 more paladin past lives equaling 3 and characters C and D get a second copy of Paladin past life. Character C works for a third paladin past life so character D gets one as well. Essentially 6 paladin past lives across 3 characters gets all characters on that account 3x paladin past lives.

Still takes effort, but feels like a better amount of incentive to benefit ratio than just straight up sharing ALL past lives between ALL characters.