Heroic vs Racial past life Reincarnation?

[DoctorOfLiterature]

So I am on my third heroic life, having done one Ranger, one Artificer, and was planning this third to be Rogue. I have not taken this toon, Frieling, to 30 yet.

A friend told me that it is better to do racials before heroic reincarnations. Why is that?

Should I switch to racial reincarnation at this point?

It seems like best time to go to 30 is first life as exp required is less, but I didn’t understand at the time and that horse left the barn. Does it matter now when I go to 30?

[Arctigis]

So I am on my third heroic life, having done one Ranger, one Artificer, and was planning this third to be Rogue. I have not taken this toon, Frieling, to 30 yet.

A friend told me that it is better to do racials before heroic reincarnations. Why is that?

Should I switch to racial reincarnation at this point?

It seems like best time to go to 30 is first life as exp required is less, but I didn’t understand at the time and that horse left the barn. Does it matter now when I go to 30?

Racial TR'ing is a lot of work - you need 39 for Racial Completionist I think. The power
is high because every three racial lives you get a racial action spoint which can be spent
in the racial enhancement tree. At the moment, a racial completionist with the +2
tome gets 15 points to spend. This is a very, very good bonus. The second life in
each race is also a +1 stat bonus. For example, a racial completionist will start level
1 with 5 more points of Charisma.

[C-Dog]

So I am on my third heroic life, having done one Ranger, one Artificer, and was planning this third to be Rogue.

If you're doing Ranged (Ranger, Arti, Rogue = Ranged?), then Ranger PL's are great - the +2 damage is big for early leveling, and the energy resist adds up.

(And if you're trapping, sim for Arti PL's - and the UMD gets you to RD/Res/Heal scrolls that much earlier!)

I have not taken this toon, Frieling, to 30 yet.

If you have (or will have) them, don't overlook Iconics. An Iconic Reincarnation (@ 30) gives you 1 Iconic PL plus the approp Heroic PL. Some IPL's are really nice (PDK = +3 PRR, etc.). So factor those in, if you think you'll be heading that way.

A friend told me that it is better to do racials before heroic reincarnations. Why is that?

Your friend is valuing long-term gains over short-term. As mentioned above, the +1 AP is really nice, and the +1 stat can be considered the equiv of another +2 AP (if in the main stat, or a useful one).

Should I switch to racial reincarnation at this point?

If you're doing Ranged, you could grab 3/6 RR's in a race/races w/ Dex or Int (or Wis - depending on your "main stat"*). That alone won't be a game changer, but combined with the +1-2 AP your builds will have just that little more juice, both to start out and then at the high end (Tier V).

And then you can decide where to go from there.

(* Note that these do NOT add in for Feat pre-reqs nor (for Int) for Skill Points, merely the total for figuring Damage/Skill/Saving Throw modifiers.)

Does it matter now when I go to 30?

Nupe.

Many players will very(!) carefully map out their Heroic/Epic leveling, so they can get to 30 and ER back to 20 twice before doing a TR/RR back to 1, and get 2 E PL's for every 1 Heroic or Racial PL. It requires a careful dance to save enough quests for "first time experience", but with dailies it can be done (altho' XP pots make it a lot easier).

[DoctorOfLiterature]

C Dog, thank you! This is so complicated! As a relative Newbie (started last August), I feel like I am always doing something wrong. But your advice is very helpful. Frieling IS a ranged/inquisitive plus trapper build. So maybe I should complete the second and third Ranger and Arti lives after this one Rogue life. And then reassess. I haven't done any Iconic yet. I don't see myself being a completionist in everything. At some point I would like to play end game with this toon. So maybe if I do three lives in Ranger and three in Arti and then do a pure Arti for end game--maybe that would make sense.

[C-Dog]

CThis is so complicated! As a relative Newbie (started last August), I feel like I am always doing something wrong...

Don't, for a second, believe that new(er) players have a monopoly on that. Trust me.

... So maybe I should complete the second and third Ranger and Arti lives after this one Rogue life. And then reassess. I haven't done any Iconic yet. I don't see myself being a completionist in everything.

"Completionist" in anything is def a "long term" goal, and not for everyone. (It also requires semi-regular upkeep, as new classes/races/whatever are added! )

I like ranged too, and went w/ a PDK build from 15-30 for the +3 PRR for a little more durability for the typically squishier pew-pewer - it's noticeable, esp at lower levels. Hardest part is to shoe-horn the forced starting class into a good Ranged build, but it's always doable, if not desirable/optimal. (See build notes below.)

At some point I would like to play end game with this toon. So maybe if I do three lives in Ranger and three in Arti and then do a pure Arti for end game--maybe that would make sense.

Or, if you have Iconic (not clear if you have that option or no), try a quick 15-30 w/ one of those builds and grab some Iconic PL's at the same time!

The most common Iconics to have (from Shadowfell expansion)

o PDK = +3 PRR/ (w/ Fighter - consider heavy armor/non-evasion?)
o Morninglord = +3 Positive Spell Power/ (for better healing) (w/ Cleric - consider going full Wis w/ Falconry/Inquis)
o Shadar-Kai = +1% Dodge/ (w/ Rogue - easy, lots of options)
...and then...
o Bladeforged* = +5% Fort/ (including this as it may be the "best" iconic PL bonus, ymmv) (w/ Paladin - consider dipping several levels for all bonuses. BF + Arti invites another non-evasion, heavy-armor build)

The other Iconic PL's are nice, but not as useful for a ranged imo.

Note - the challenge with most Iconic "trappers" is to get the trapping skills back up to scratch after the gut-punch of Level 1. This is easier w/ an Int tome of some sort - +2 helps, but a +5 (or more?) makes it that much easier. Worth chasing that 5,000 favor once for that before giving this a try (except on Shadar-Kai, which starts w/ Rogue). (Of course, this competes w/ the desire/need to grab that +5 Dex tome, handy for Feat pre-reqs. Get both for easy street.)

(* BF is pro'ly the hardest "ranged" build, as you have to get past the -2 Dex and still get to base 21 Dex for the Epic Feats, but any "dedicated" ranged player will have grabbed a +2 Dex Tome on an early trip to 20. A +5 makes it much easier.)

[DoctorOfLiterature]

I have access to Deep Gnome and Tieifling Scoundrel only. Thinking about doing a Deep Gnome arti on next life.

[mikarddo]

So I am on my third heroic life, having done one Ranger, one Artificer, and was planning this third to be Rogue. I have not taken this toon, Frieling, to 30 yet.

A friend told me that it is better to do racials before heroic reincarnations. Why is that?

Should I switch to racial reincarnation at this point?

It seems like best time to go to 30 is first life as exp required is less, but I didn’t understand at the time and that horse left the barn. Does it matter now when I go to 30?

Epic xp is the same any life including the first so you didnt miss out on anything.

As long as you play to have fun you are doing it right

Going 1-30 for either a heroic life or a racial life AND an epic live is a good idea as you get first time completions all the way. Not the only why to play but a good idea. Epic past lives are worth a good deal of power, also in heroics. In particular the first 12 epic past lives.

Some heroic lives can be worth taking before racial lives but more often racial lives are probably better.
- Paladin for +heal amp is worth considering
- Ranger for +2 ranged damage if you are ranged is very good, in particular in heroics.
- Wizard for +2 Spell Pen (for DC casters, so does not apply for you)
- Sorc for +1 evoc DC is playing a nuker
Apart from these I would say racial past lives are better value for most players, mostly for the extra racial AP.

I would not advice iconics if you are going for "value" from past lives unless you very much want the heroic past live you get from it. Getting a racial + an epic past lives is often of much better value than an iconic past live + a heroic past live. Basically, iconic past lives are not as good as epic past lives. Using iconics for a few heroic past lives is fine though, in particular if you get do so using the same iconic 3 times for the one active iconic feat bonus and with an iconic where the bonus matters for you (most as a bit weak imho):

There is no wrong way to play though, as long as you are having fun

[C-Dog]

I have access to Deep Gnome and Tieifling Scoundrel only. Thinking about doing a Deep Gnome arti on next life.

Deep Gnome IPL gives +3 MRR*, which (imo) is not quite as nice as PRR, ymmv.

(* I'm just thinking re Ranged - there is an "active PL stance" that can help Warlocks/etc., not relevant here. See article for full info: https://ddowiki.com/page/Iconic_Past_Life_Feats)

As miki stated just prev., the real incentive re doing IPL's early is so that you are not "throwing away" the Heroic PL's that come w/ them later. And some players find it easier, or not much worse, to go from 15-30 w/ an Iconic race than it is from 1-20 w/ a non-Iconic, and toss the IPL in "for free" - another "ymmv".

Also true is that there is no single "best" or "right" way to do them - have fun, that's the win.

[DoctorOfLiterature]

You guys have been really helpful. So I decided to go to 30 and take one epic pl and then either a Gnome racial or the Rogue heroic. I haven't done much at Epic but while farming my tokens decided it wasn't too bad and going to 30 makes sense. If nothing else I may farm some good stuff and get a better sense of what works and doesn't at end game. I am already lvl 23 and I haven't had too hard a time finding groups to run with.

[C-Dog]

... I haven't done much at Epic but while farming my tokens decided it wasn't too bad and going to 30 makes sense. If nothing else I may farm some good stuff ... I am already lvl 23 and I haven't had too hard a time finding groups to run with.

On your Epic "to do" list, try to hit as many of the Sagas at True Elite as you can (there are currently 10 of them total, if you have all that content).

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Saga#Epic_Sagas_2

You want True Elite (ask/beg in an LFM, you'll get help!) so you can get the 4 random +3 Skill Tomes. Don't turn them in until you have them all done - there are 20 skills total that can drop (UMD Tomes do NOT drop here), so check/compare the lists you get and try to optimize the skills offered to squeeze the most out of all of the Sagas combined.

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Skills#List_of_Skills

As a Trapper, obviously those 4 skills, and the rest are up to you, but I like the "combat" skills of Jump and Balance, and then Haggle, and Heal (for shrining if nothing else). Then any others, like Social skills, or Hide/MS or Swim if you roll that way, etc etc. +3 is a solid boost during Heroic, and can make up for poor gear (and/or lazy upgrading).

For lists that offer only duplicates or "useless" skills (Perform? etc.), you can either take XP, or Guild Renown, or (if you Craft at a high level) grab a tome and trade it for Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments.

(Note - Don't be intimidated by the long lists of quests in the E-star sagas - they all overlap, and if you do them all they actually have fewer quests/saga than the "simple" ones like 3BC and GH. GL!)

[DoctorOfLiterature]

Thanks C-Dog. That's really helpful and I will try to do all those. When you say "True Elite" does that mean that Reaper doesn't count?

So I am already at lvl 27 and doing really well on Elite, ok on R1, but R4, which I did today, was over my head.

Thanks for all your help.

[MacDubh]

Thanks C-Dog. That's really helpful and I will try to do all those. When you say "True Elite" does that mean that Reaper doesn't count?

So I am already at lvl 27 and doing really well on Elite, ok on R1, but R4, which I did today, was over my head.

Thanks for all your help.

"True Elite" is the highest tier saga reward if every quest in the saga is done on Elite or Reaper, so Reaper counts
"Elite" tier saga reward allows you to have done some quests on lower difficulty.

On a broader note, to help folk 'bridge the gap' I think a TR should grant both Heroic and Racial Past Lives (similar to iconics granting both Heroic and Iconic past lives) - noting discussions elsewhere on here of how to accelerate new/casual players over the power gap, and hence keep them playing.

[DoctorOfLiterature]

"True Elite" is the highest tier saga reward if every quest in the saga is done on Elite or Reaper, so Reaper counts
"Elite" tier saga reward allows you to have done some quests on lower difficulty.

On a broader note, to help folk 'bridge the gap' I think a TR should grant both Heroic and Racial Past Lives (similar to iconics granting both Heroic and Iconic past lives) - noting discussions elsewhere on here of how to accelerate new/casual players over the power gap, and hence keep them playing.

As a newer player, I can confirm that getting both Heroic and Racial PL would encourage me to keep playing toward completionist. As it is, the task is too daunting, which is why I am trying to figure out the minimum PLs I need to have a strong end game Inqui. But I am not optimistic DDO will do what you suggest.

[scut207]

As a newer player, I can confirm that getting both Heroic and Racial PL would encourage me to keep playing toward completionist. As it is, the task is too daunting, which is why I am trying to figure out the minimum PLs I need to have a strong end game Inqui. But I am not optimistic DDO will do what you suggest.

EPLs tend imho to add more character power for the time invested, but do the useful ones to you. 3xBrace is a good choice from divine Skills maybe from Martial Ranged from primal and weapon damage from Magister.

if your dead set on inquis racial-repeater then doing 3x ranger asap is best before anymore racials, you can do it faster doing an Iconic but you give up the EPL.

if your careful with how you level, you can still knock out an EPL on an Iconic really really fast

Do not take the GH or sharn sagas in heroic theres so much xp available you dont need them yet.
When you first hit 20 do all the saga quests lines without taking the xp reward either. that should easily get you to 30 then ETR for the EPL and pop a pot if you have one and hand in all those XP saga rewards which can get you mid 20s and then do 1st time runs on E-star challenges and slayers, you may have to do some more clean up quests but it shouldnt be much to get you to 30 then you can ITR to 1 or 15 again.

[Drekisen]

If you have the patience for it, sorry for repeating what a lot of others have said already, but stick it out in Epics for a while.....the power gain will make going through heroic levels that much faster.

[C-Dog]

Thanks C-Dog. That's really helpful and I will try to do all those. When you say "True Elite" does that mean that Reaper doesn't count?

No, E and R are the same for Saga Completion. Complete all listed quests on Elite (or R) to complete a Saga on "True Elite".

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Saga#Earning_Points

... doing really well on Elite, ok on R1, but R4, which I did today, was over my head.

I've noticed a significant jump in power/difficulty between R2 to 3 (and 5 introduces the "additional" reaper types).

R3 seems to be a comfortable spot for builds/groups that can handle "some extra difficulty" from R1, and want the additional RXP, which is especially felt in higher-level Heroics, and of course Epics.

[MichelleOtter]

about racial it was important to know these thoughts

[Saekee]

great stuff from cdog as always

So you know, I have been playing for a long time and am not gunning for massive character power or completionist stuff. I would focus on what you enjoy and build around that. If you like melees or ranged, monk PLs ad up to +3 damage, ranger was mentioned above, then the epic PL can have enchant weapon +3 from Epic PL so right there you have +6 damage. That is a lot—add 6 on ranged stuff for rangers and THF has some; then people get doublestrike boosts from Epic Past lives, etc. So going to cap and doing two EPLs makes the heroic easier.
At cap you can stay a bit and boost your reaper xp which will be very important too. See how there is a nice synergy in boosting your toon. Grab the free weapon and sentient gem from Ravenloft and start building up that too.
Gear farming can be fun too because you plan out stuff and can achieve it early whereas massive reincarnations just seems like an endless marathon

[Oxarhamar]

great stuff from cdog as always

So you know, I have been playing for a long time and am not gunning for massive character power or completionist stuff. I would focus on what you enjoy and build around that. If you like melees or ranged, monk PLs ad up to +3 damage, ranger was mentioned above, then the epic PL can have enchant weapon +3 from Epic PL so right there you have +6 damage. That is a lot—add 6 on ranged stuff for rangers and THF has some; then people get doublestrike boosts from Epic Past lives, etc. So going to cap and doing two EPLs makes the heroic easier.
At cap you can stay a bit and boost your reaper xp which will be very important too. See how there is a nice synergy in boosting your toon. Grab the free weapon and sentient gem from Ravenloft and start building up that too.
Gear farming can be fun too because you plan out stuff and can achieve it early whereas massive reincarnations just seems like an endless marathon

Yep

I like to go for whatever I think will help first then go after the others next

Remember to have fun

[MyStiK-GaMeR]

If you're focusing on maximum efficiency to triple all, have slayer pots/xp pots etc then:

1) Do not waste 1-20's on heroic PL's (Even the really good ones like Paladin, Wizard, Arti Etc.) The reason for this is that heroics can be gained via Iconic's with much less time investment, 15-30 is about 50% of the time as 1-20 and you gain an Iconic PL at the same time! Making it x4 better for the time.

2.1) TR, do not run two epic past lives for every racial past life. Doing two epics for every racial is a popular method and gives power gain faster but maximum efficiency is largely reduced. Slayer areas, first time bonuses –on the very best quests– and monster manual bonuses are extremely valuable.

2.2) Always go to 30, i.e. don't simply hit 20 and TR. The most effective power gain is reaper points and epic past lives, in addition there are more epic past lives to be achieved than racials, so you don't want to miss any opportunity to get one.

3) Always stick around at cap for some high reaper questing - don't waste this valuable first time xp on Reaper by rushing a TR!

4) If at all possible, level with one or two other players, split up quest objectives.

5) Always run at least a 10% pot. These pots have double the value of any other xp pot for the points and if bought on sale in the largest quantity should be cheap enough that your points earned from leveling will easily cover the cost of them, meaning they are essentially free. My buddies and I found that we could run a 10% until about level 8 and then a 50% until 20 for free because of points earned, but completing quests at a high pace is necessary for this to be the case.

6.1) Create five additional accounts with alts that can be boxed (run at the same time as your main account). There is significant time investment to run 5 additional characters on F2P accounts to 20. However they have the advantage of being first lifers with minimum xp requirements to level. You can level these in groups of two or three at a time with your main character which would enable additional spots for hirelings and friends. The most important expansion packs are currently on an amazing sale for $10 each. If you're looking at long term these additional accounts will be invaluable for farming gear but in the very least they will help to gain the 20 tokens required for each reincarnation much faster.

6.2) Do not farm devils assault for tokens of the twelve, this is about the slowest way to get tokens. Instead farm Bargain of Blood. You'll want to get at least one of your alt account characters to 30 so that you can run this quest easily on elite for a full token per character. With your additional accounts you'll be able to farm out your 20 tokens in 20 minutes or less.

7) Order of lives: First, gain access to heroic completionist via iconic races (VIR). Second, triple Paladin VIR. Third, triple sorc VIR. Fourth, triple Arti VIR. Fifth, begin racials on a Sorc. (see 7.1). Sixth, after racials finish remaining heroics VIR, break rule #2 for 12 lives pairing an epic reincarnation in with each Iconic. Finally, once all iconics are completed, continue running iconics to complete your remaining heroic past lives. The reason is that Iconics are faster than 1-20 and enable you to do some level 30 high reaper content before you ITR.

7.1) As you begin pairing epic reincarnations with racials, prioritize unlocking epic completionist feat first. Triple one epic past life stance in each sphere to unlock epic completionist. The reason for tripling one PL from each sphere is that only one past life from each sphere can be activated at a time, so making that active past life feat as powerful as possible is the most beneficial. The epic past life active feats I recommend for sorc. leveling are Arcane Sphere: Energy Criticals, Divine Sphere: Ancient Blessings, Martial Sphere: Skill Mastery, Primal Sphere: Fast Healing.

8) Running acid 1-9, lightning from 9-30 (play/level like Noobicabra https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbit...R9-lS1aJZunuNC), you may find a different quest route more efficient than his. Take the time to play different routes and record the xp/second in an excel sheet, remember to distribute saga bonus xp for applicable quests.

8.1) Prefarm the gear for leveling while at 30.

8.2) Get a shadow crypt opener.