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  1. #161
    Community Member Merrillman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrillman View Post
    Ok peeps. You’ve been playing DDO so much, and take it so seriously, that you did not recognize SARCASM. No, I wasn’t serious. No, I don’t think you should give away reaper points. I DO think that PL, EPL, RPL, and RP are the MOST significant (but not only) factor in success in reaper, or other content. The reason you even PLAY reaper is that after topping out all 3 PL tasks, the game is too easy, and after topping out RP, the game again becomes easy. Instead of complaining about making the game HARDER for people who do not have the time (I can play an hour a day for the rest of my natural life and I will never accumulate all the PL that people have) that you do to play, why don’t you just start from scratch? Should be easy if it’s skill.

    I do NOT think you should have your grinding reduced any more than I think my own grinding should be, and elemental DPS — the only thing I like to play — is getting utterly MASSACRED by this nerfular bomb.

    Again. I was JOKING. It was meant as riff on the giveaways in life everyone in this country seem to want. I’m totally cool with players being “better” but to me (and no one has to agree) you either have 1) a far more popular server, as mine I can wait 2-3 hours or more before even coming close to the amount of people to play a raid or 2) you’ve just spent so much time playing you, naturally, have simply committed to memory the most efficient ways to play, and very likely have maxed out gear of every type and from raids or GS (I have none). I can’t get into a raid very often. Just can’t wait hours before it starts. Again, it was sarcasm.

    I have to say, that if you think having 32 past lives combined no matter what kind they are in a three month period is not playing an absolutely enormous amount? You are certifiably nuts. Your life is consumed by DND. That’s just a fact. I have been playing for five years, I have seven heroic lives and probably 15 epic Past lives maybe 20. You’re saying you did that in three months or someone did that in three months? That is an ungodly amount of time on DDO.
    Last edited by Merrillman; 06-30-2021 at 05:13 PM.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrillman View Post
    That’s just speculation. “Earned?” Lol. Just more time spent. My opinion is this is not a high skill game.
    It's not a high skill game when you play on Normal. Instead of dragging people down to your level of competence like crabs in a bucket, try a harder difficulty.

    And if you think earning reaper wings on hardcore isn't a noteworthy achievement, then you are out of touch with the game.
    Khyber: Ying-1, Kobeyashi, Nichevo-1 | 75 million Reaper XP

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrillman View Post
    That’s just speculation. “Earned?” Lol. Just more time spent. My opinion is this is not a high skill game. Sure, some button mooshing. But it’s all determined by gear, points and lives. Of course some classes excel at some things and stink at others. So all classes are not balanced in any way. No splash non PM (no healing) Wizards even with top gear will get one shotted in the majority of cases. Finding corners to hide that monsters can’t get you is not skill. That’s a cheat code. Just the way it is without a tank and no healing to speak of. If you have no PL, no EPL, and no RP? You are not — simply NOT — getting through R10. Prove me wrong.

    Also please let’s see how many hours you play vs the average person. If you play more than an average of hour a day? I’m sorry, but you have either no responsibilities in your life, or ddo is all you do to a very significant extent.

    I’d love to see the fastest possible times anyone has ever gotten through a dungeon on r10, and back out the hours it would take for someone to run through all of that content on the FASTEST times, and I bet you have 10x game time that I do when it’s all said and done.

    That said? Much of what I said was simply being sarcastic. I wasn’t actually serious. The tongue in cheek is apparently lost in people. What I’m saying (not sarcastic) is that it’s not a skill game.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ht=corona+barb

    No more needs to be said I guess

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrillman View Post
    I have to say, that if you think having 32 past lives combined no matter what kind they are in a three month period is not playing an absolutely enormous amount? You are certifiably nuts. Your life is consumed by DND. That’s just a fact. I have been playing for five years, I have seven heroic lives and probably 15 epic Past lives maybe 20. You’re saying you did that in three months or someone did that in three months? That is an ungodly amount of time on DDO.
    More likely 17 lives why would anyone not ETR when capping at 30 doing a racial life is just beyond me

  5. #165
    Community Member vryxnr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrillman View Post
    “Earned?” Lol. Just more time spent.
    I am confused as to how spending time to achieve something is not earning it.

    If this was a situation where you can log on then go AFK and get everything, then yeah, that is not earning it... but that is not the case here. It may be "low skill", but that is not "zero skill". There are games out there where you progress by turning it on and doing nothing, as much as people like to look down on DDO, DDO is still not that type of game.

    You say "button mashing" as if you could just randomly and repeatedly mash buttons to win here, like two low skill players playing a fighting game for the first time, but I'm willing to bet that that will not get you far in DDO. Yes, we push buttons to direct our characters to act against the environment, but if you just push random buttons or the wrong buttons at the wrong time for the wrong reasons, you'll end up failing. Knowing what to press, and when to press it (aka: what actions to take in specific situations as they come up) is a part of the skill here. I'm not saying DDO is the most skill intensive game out there (not by a long shot), but it is still leaps and bounds above what many claim it to be.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    If you found an error please point it out - otherwise it's fully accurate....

    Kill count is a bad measure especially when on lower skulls it's all about who gets there the fastest and alot of people care that overemphasize kill count zerg to get kills and to get to easy kill spots. People learn these bad habits and then don't know what to do in more difficult content.
    Sure. Your error is the "just" statements you make. Oh, it's just 400 or so HPs. It is more like 1400. Someone did a breakdown of how many more HPs a full spec'd character gets versus one with no reaper/PLs and that's about what it was. 1400 points is a huge deal.

    And kill count is an excellent measurement tool. Your example here only matters when comparing two equally awesomesauce characters. In that scenario, then yes, spacing and speed may tweak it one way or the other. But when I'm at 56 and you're at 18 it has nothing to do with stealing kills or easy kills. I'm a better build/player and those things are far more obvious in heroics because as I've already pointed out, high-level epics are about accumulation.

    Note when reaper first came out it actually did force players to work together and things weren't just about kill count. But now that even R10 is zerged, we are back where we started and need a method to either reduce power (which no one likes) or catch people up (which is universally more popular).
    Last edited by Marshal_Lannes; 06-30-2021 at 07:34 PM.


    I am Awesomesauce!

  7. #167
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    Kill count is not good measure in heroic, at least not low reaper. In many heroic quests, most enemies die from a single attack (-chain) or AOE.

    So the person with the highest movement speed, lowest ping, fastest reactions, best quest knowledge (never making a wrong turn, knowing exactly where and when enemies spawn so they can kill them just as they appear or come in range) and best spammable high damage AOE will lead the kill count.
    In quests with lots of open spaces where enemies come to you in smaller packs, ranged will likely lead kill count (ranged attacks have longer reach than most spells).

    Only when mobs take more hits to kill killcount starts to be a better indicator. But boss dps sometimes matters too, if not for successful completion, then for a faster completion.

  8. #168
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    And kill count is an excellent measurement tool. Your example here only matters when comparing two equally awesomesauce characters. In that scenario, then yes, spacing and speed may tweak it one way or the other. But when I'm at 56 and you're at 18 it has nothing to do with stealing kills or easy kills. I'm a better build/player and those things are far more obvious in heroics because as I've already pointed out, high-level epics are about accumulation.
    In 2021 we're still basing positions on last hit sniping?

    In heroics?

    Your example doesn't make one a better player or a better build. This means one consumed more time on their character than the other person in the same quest (often referred to as "well farmed" in most competitive games). DDO is 5% skill 95% time consumption. Their design template is literally level scaling HP /stat bloat on a per CR basis, and their generator scaling decides how many mobs to place in the middle of the hallway depending on how many characters + what classes are present. Once you have reached the ceiling of your skill (literally one encounter into a quest), the rest is how much time you consumed stacking character power on the same toon. This is a community that moans about 2 APM to keep minute long buffs up, and its not like circle strafing is hard. They even removed the need to hit cleave hotkeys for an entire archetype. There's multiplicatively more skill needed to navigate the few jumping puzzle style quests than there is in killing mobs, which can be committed to muscle memory. Hit the same sequence of keys, every time - with but a few exceptions.

    Congrats on being well farmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I
    Congrats on being well farmed.
    So you agree with my thesis that high reaper play is about accumulation I take it?


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  10. #170
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Excuse making. Tell that to Dom who got wings on hardcore within 90 days.
    One person did it so this must apply to everyone? This is based in a logical fallacy, of citing the best and then telling the average they are making excuses for not keeping up. Not the best retention strategy. Not even the 188th best retention strategy.

    Some of us cant play like this is the only thing we do in life, and also cant wallet warrior our way through character power acquisition. We do spend money however, just not at the "luxury game" level.

    Its not excuse making. Its being a functional adult with a regular income.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  11. #171
    Community Member Merrillman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    It's not a high skill game when you play on Normal. Instead of dragging people down to your level of competence like crabs in a bucket, try a harder difficulty.

    And if you think earning reaper wings on hardcore isn't a noteworthy achievement, then you are out of touch with the game.
    No no. Didn't say it wasn’t noteworthy. It is. But? Man that is a LOT of time spent. I mean how many hours a day do you have to play (please, I really am curious. Some math whiz out there I’m sure can number crunch it. I’m saying pretty much anyone can do it with enough time to spend playing. It might take longer if you’re doing it yourself than with a group, but you can eventually get there. But in the end? Anyone and I mean Anyone who spends enough time can “earn” the wings. Yes it’s noteworthy. But (my opinion) I don’t buy high skills. Sure, in some context. You definitely practice and play enough, naturally you will get better. Know the paths to take, which to avoid, and you definitely earned the XP. But all it takes is enough time of people who have played longer to drag you along, which, by the way, happens a lot. So if you grouped and got dragged through X number of dungeons, is that something YOU earned? Or is it something awarded to you based on that character happening to be part of a group. I’m not meaning that in a mean way. And the reaper do is definitely chalked up. But “earned?” Not so sure. But... All perfectly good. I’m even jealous in some ways. I truly wish I could spend that kind of time relaxing and playing games. Honestly, I do. But I can’t and will never have that kind of time on my hands til retirement, if then. Simply won’t. I could play for 5 more years and I won’t have 100 reaper points. Let alone on multiple characters. Why? One reason alone. Not enough time to play that much. Not because of lack of desire. Or skill. Or reading. Or having equipment. But because of a lack of time. Don’t get me wrong, I love DDO. But I just don’t consider it a skill. I consider it a repeated (but very fun) behavior with rewards for the amount of repetition. Just me. No other persons opinion is not valid because I hold this one.

  12. #172
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    So you agree with my thesis that high reaper play is about accumulation I take it?
    You stated better player / better build. 0/2.

    High reaper is about two things.
    1. Changing the playstyle from 1-6 people overpowering the same instance with damage output, to teamwork focused play calling out specific mob focus targets.
    -and-
    2. Tolerance for character deaths not exhibited in lower skull play.

    Working with other humans is literally the most difficult thing about it. None of this stuff you brought up is a good measuring stick.

    Ive made a character and went into R7-10s after gear was farmed with literally zero RP and 0 PLs (entire static group had 0 RP / 0 PLs). Its not like any of us are pro RTS players when it comes to APM either.

    The issue is how much of this video gamey stuff which pulls you out of D&D immersion can you tolerate, and how much will you wallet warrior your way out of? The game is pretty forgiving if you have fat stacks of res cakes on hand. Its far quicker to farm RP this way, but the ego about kill counts / character deaths etc needs to be put to rest before using this method.

    They literally made part of the game farm the easiest using the "dorkness rising" method of having 50 of the exact same character sheet on hand before the session begins. "Everyone quick, get behind the pile of dead bards!"

    Best players? Best builds? Best accumulation? Nope.

    Highest tolerance for straight up cheese. And I'm from Wisconsin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  13. #173
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    And if you think earning reaper wings on hardcore isn't a noteworthy achievement, then you are out of touch with the game.
    Should this be expected of everyone because literally one person did it 4+ years after implementation? Or is it possible that people do have a point about inordinate amounts of time consumption?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  14. #174
    Community Member LittleLexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    And kill count is an excellent measurement tool.
    This would be laughable, if it weren't so sad...So sad that there really are players who have this mentality. Even if they upgraded it to track actual DPS, instead of kill count— it still wouldn't be a good measure of very much. More than that— people who put such emphasis on this are not the party members I want; whether we're on Casual difficulty or R10.

    --------------------


    I really don't like Reaper mode. At least— not its execution. But one thing I do appreciate that is a pleasant outcome is: the incentive to cooperate and coordinate as a team. We have to be careful not to turn— what is supposed to be a challenge mode— into something trivial. Perhaps these changes will bring Reaper mode closer in line to what the devs envisioned it ought to be.

    I also don't like that Reaper has become the new Elite. But it has. So we also need to be cognizant of all the players playing at that difficulty(R1)— and there are a lot. On the one hand— they could make Epic Past Lives not apply in Heroics. Make it so that Reaper mode didn't yield any additional bonuses in terms of XP, loot drop rate, bonuses on gear, and enhancements that work outside of Reaper mode. This might mean that the folks that can't/don't want to run Reaper, can do so; free of any pressure. Perhaps that's what they should have done, in the first place. I highly doubt they are going to do that now, however. And it's probably right that we don't segregate the fractured playerbase further. So it is important to ensure that, at least R1-R3 is accessible.

    I'm not sure what they can do on that front. At this point— it's actually very tricky to say what the gameplay is really going to be like post u51. But I will reiterate that Reaper XP should be bumped up a touch on low skulls and non-Legendary quests. That will help some players ease in to Reaper mode, and even "catch up", to a degree. And again— give us more(cosmetic) rewards for those with loads of Reaper points. I also think having to spend so much plat— every life— for Reaper wings, is really silly for something that is already accomplished.

    --------------------

    Regarding selling a "Reaper urn of learning"(or whatever it would be dubbed) in the DDO store— I am very much against that. Can you imagine the articles that would pop up on various gaming journals? "Dungeons & Dragons Online turns its hardcore mode into P2W"

    ...No thanks. As a matter of principle, and with genuine concern for how our game will be perceived: Just no.
    Last edited by LittleLexi; 06-30-2021 at 08:32 PM.

  15. #175
    Community Member Merrillman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    One person did it so this must apply to everyone? This is based in a logical fallacy, of citing the best and then telling the average they are making excuses for not keeping up. Not the best retention strategy. Not even the 188th best retention strategy.

    Some of us cant play like this is the only thing we do in life, and also cant wallet warrior our way through character power acquisition. We do spend money however, just not at the "luxury game" level.

    Its not excuse making. Its being a functional adult with a regular income.
    100%. Normal people with normal responsibilities CANNOT rack up 32 past lives in 3 months. You couldn’t DO anything else. I want to know how you do that unless you’re a VLOGGER for DDO or are unemployed. I mean really. 32 lives in 3 months?? GTHOOH. How????? No significant life outside DDO, that’s my guess.

  16. #176
    Uber Completionist rabidfox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Should this be expected of everyone because literally one person did it 4+ years after implementation? Or is it possible that people do have a point about inordinate amounts of time consumption?
    Sure, time consumption is a part of it but I've got lots of free time currently and didn't/couldn't pull it off. I'm generally good at the game, but on the occasional times I wind up in pugs with Dom, Matty, other LD members, and some of the other top people on Khyber, I'm reminded that they've got tactics, skills, and reflexes that I don't (or at least that I haven't developed/learned yet for whatever isn't just pure raw twitch ability differences). So I'm impressed by those wings being earned on HC.

  17. #177
    Community Member LittleLexi's Avatar
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    It's not even just a matter of having X amount of time. What you do with that time is also significant. And for some people— doing a handful of quests per session, rather than zerging through 30 in that same time, is how they choose to play and they shouldn't be disparaged for it.

  18. #178
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrillman View Post
    100%. Normal people with normal responsibilities CANNOT rack up 32 past lives in 3 months. You couldn’t DO anything else. I want to know how you do that unless you’re a VLOGGER for DDO or are unemployed. I mean really. 32 lives in 3 months?? GTHOOH. How????? No significant life outside DDO, that’s my guess.
    Money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post

    Highest tolerance for straight up cheese. And I'm from Wisconsin.
    Alright, alright, alright. That was a good post.


    I am Awesomesauce!

  20. #180
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    Sure. Your error is the "just" statements you make. Oh, it's just 400 or so HPs. It is more like 1400. Someone did a breakdown of how many more HPs a full spec'd character gets versus one with no reaper/PLs and that's about what it was. 1400 points is a huge deal.
    I am the one that did the breakdown of hp gained by a max hp and it was with a full 156 comparison and all past lifes with and without epic defensive fighting.

    The numbers I provided in response to your post was a specific breakdown of 35 vs 100 reaper pts using the tree splits mentioned. 21 pts in the tank tree gets you 130 hp in the cores + 60 hp from con + 168 hp from enhancement points. The 14 points in the caster tree gets you another 56 hp for a total of 414 hp. If you get another 65 reaper points for 100 total you get 296 more hp from the tank tree (going from 21 to 58 or 37 x 8). The other 28 points go in the caster tree for 112 more hp - so a total of 408 extra hp by going from 35 to 100 reaper points.

    It might not fit your narrative, but the math is accurate unless you can find an error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
    And kill count is an excellent measurement tool. Your example here only matters when comparing two equally awesomesauce characters. In that scenario, then yes, spacing and speed may tweak it one way or the other. But when I'm at 56 and you're at 18 it has nothing to do with stealing kills or easy kills. I'm a better build/player and those things are far more obvious in heroics because as I've already pointed out, high-level epics are about accumulation.

    Note when reaper first came out it actually did force players to work together and things weren't just about kill count. But now that even R10 is zerged, we are back where we started and need a method to either reduce power (which no one likes) or catch people up (which is universally more popular).
    You are not alone. Many people that mostly run heroics are a bit lost at end game. You mainly just need to change your mindset and play at end game a bit more to improve. I think 35 reaper points is actually a good entry point. All of us at 100 reaper points at one point had 35 and yet we managed to complete reaper quests. One person achieved wings on hardcore season IV. So I wouldn't let this negative way of thinking hold you back.
    DC Warlock Reaper Build (U48)
    Max DC Illusionist Reaper Build (U48)

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