Hope you have already farmed all your reaper xp

[Catabree]

If you want to standardize power vs. investment, I also think you have to depreciate existing pools of reaper points by how much more difficult future reaper points are to accumulate. Converting "Reaper Points" at a 2:1 ratio into new "Challenge Points" would accomplish that for the scenario where reaper point accumulation becomes twice as difficult.

Don't know the answer, but for anyone that has done it, filling all reaper tree is one expensive grind, people will get upset losing all they have paid for, just to balance the game for r1-6 players. Its like saying we are going change racial complestionist by removal of the free feat, and the stat point bonus because it's making other players feel inadequate, or the players with it OP. How unfair would that be, different but the same principle. Least we have highlighted the issue. Look see how it goes, I'm sure the devs can make adjustments to mobs in reapers if too many people are not having fun anymore. Let be realistic, what new player post up r10 runs. They mostly come along for the joy ride and easy reaper xp. As somone else mentioned, their contribution will be very little, mostly a soul stone the whole run, which happens anyway really. We all had to start somewhere and farm the points.

[Jiirix]

The point of reaper was to keep the players occupied that had done everything else in the game already. I guess they overestimated how long that trick would work.

[mikarddo]

The point of reaper was to keep the players occupied that had done everything else in the game already. I guess they overestimated how long that trick would work.

Unfortunately, some of that is due to being able to reset first time completions with less than legit Ottos boxes.

But overall it is a simple fact that some players will always outperform even the most optimistic predictions - e.g. getting reaper wings on hardcore.

[Eme]

fun, right? .

looks like this was forgotten about

[LurkingVeteran]

It's impossible to tell how this will play out because there are so many different changes, we haven't gotten numbers on everything (mob nerfs were extremely hand-wavy) and we are still missing a bunch of EDs.

However, if this is an MMO stat-squish as you indicated, I would expect that if you nerf mob damage that you also nerf player sources of hitpoints, including reaper hit points (which is by far biggest source in the game, for some reason). I don't know if you are going to nerf mob damage or not (the patch notes were less than clear on particulars), but you lately put a disproportionate amount of hitpoints in various places (reaper trees, favored soul / Animal domain levels..). Maybe this deserves another look. You should also to figure out how to make reaper a normal supported game mode and not an after thought, because almost everybody is playing it and this stat squish doesn't go nearly far enough in addressing power creep where it would become obsolete (and reaper itself is power creep). If reaper post-squish is now too easy, maybe this is a golden opportunity to cut all reaper tree hp bonuses in half? :-)

[John3000]

There will be some push and pull in terms of speed of Reaper XP acquisition over time, and the work being done for Update 50 will have some impact in the ability of those able to do it to cruise through higher difficulty Reaper for better XP. But while that is important to consider, it can't be a key driver in preventing the game from doing what needs to be done to improve balance and general fun, right? Ultimately, if the experience needs to be adjusted in the future, it can be, but we'll be in a much better place to make those adjustments after the work for Update 50 is complete.

THIS!!

For those who have already maxed reaper, no problem. Who cares.

Those of us who have not, yeah this is going to hit us.

I got a friend to play when the free content came out. He even signed up for VIP, played about 3 months and quit.

I asked why......... "Power Cap to great, going to play a game where it is not so big". I had been playing classic WOW with him, I assume he went back there.


I like Reaper, but it does increase the power gap between the haves and have nots. I hope I am wrong, but U50 and U51 changes looks like its going in the wrong way.

+1

The difference in RXP between R1 and R10 needs to be seriously reduced... Higher Reapers might take a little longer, but that depends on team. The incentive to play higher reapers should be fun and challenge, Not RXP, nor RXP/minute... A 25% rxp difference between R1 and R10 could be acceptable, more than that just stratifies even more the "Elites" from the rest.

A reaper cosmetics token drop system might be better for the health of the game than a RXP / Powecreep carrot stick. Just look at how well the Hardcore league works. For fun, challenge and cosmetics. No elite powercreep awards needed.


cheers

[Arctigis]

+1

The difference in RXP between R1 and R10 needs to be seriously reduced... Higher Reapers might take a little longer, but that depends on team. The incentive to play higher reapers should be fun and challenge, Not RXP, nor RXP/minute... A 25% rxp difference between R1 and R10 could be acceptable, more than that just stratifies even more the "Elites" from the rest.

A reaper cosmetics token drop system might be better for the health of the game than a RXP / Powecreep carrot stick. Just look at how well the Hardcore league works. For fun, challenge and cosmetics. No elite powercreep awards needed.


cheers

They should just remove Reaper trees entirely. The bonuses are insane. What's the
point of a so called 'challenge difficulty' that gets easier the more you do it.

[GramercyRiff]

This is such an obvious bad idea. No one is surprised. And here I was almost optimistic about the changes.

lol

[zooble]

If I understand the change correctly epic resilience and other stat changes impacting elite will also impact reaper.

The only thing that isn't changing is the reaper scaling #s and some of those are straight % rather than #s or dice.

This was my impression until I read this thread.

Then I skimmed through the live stream: https://youtu.be/apJ9yo72cRg?t=2344

This seems to be exactly what the OP has said?

There will be some push and pull in terms of speed of Reaper XP acquisition over time, and the work being done for Update 50 will have some impact in the ability of those able to do it to cruise through higher difficulty Reaper for better XP...

This doesn't really confirm or deny what the OP is saying - i.e. If I run Legendary A Sharn Welcome r1-r10, will mobs have the touted -22 saves (or whatever number was used in dev example)? Will they have reduced HP?


The u50 post states the following which makes no mention of excluding reaper: "we will be adjusting monsters downwards to match. The most notable change with this system is the removal of the Legendary Tier system as it relates to monsters. A monster at end game will ideally be just as difficult no matter which dungeon it is found in... We are also removing the Epic and Hard Saves boost found on all Monsters across our Epic content."

[slarden]

This was my impression until I read this thread.

Then I skimmed through the live stream: https://youtu.be/apJ9yo72cRg?t=2344

This seems to be exactly what the OP has said?



This doesn't really confirm or deny what the OP is saying - i.e. If I run Legendary A Sharn Welcome r1-r10, will mobs have the touted -22 saves (or whatever number was used in dev example)? Will they have reduced HP?


The u50 post states the following which makes no mention of excluding reaper: "we will be adjusting monsters downwards to match. The most notable change with this system is the removal of the Legendary Tier system as it relates to monsters. A monster at end game will ideally be just as difficult no matter which dungeon it is found in... We are also removing the Epic and Hard Saves boost found on all Monsters across our Epic content."

I believe all the changes being made are inherited in reaper automatically since reaper is based on elite.

The things that are under discussion (Steelstar's comments) would be things only impacting reaper which are the stats of reaper monsters and scaling (e.g., 4 + 1d6 saves per skull). If they are lowering the stats of monsters on elite I don't see how that isn't the same on R1 plus any additional Reaper monster buffs, player debuffs, etc. that only apply to R1.

It would definitely be helpful if the devs clarify how reaper is impacted.

[Lynnabel]

I believe all the changes being made are inherited in reaper automatically since reaper is based on elite.

The things that are under discussion (Steelstar's comments) would be things only impacting reaper which are the stats of reaper monsters and scaling (e.g., 4 + 1d6 saves per skull). If they are lowering the stats of monsters on elite I don't see how that isn't the same on R1 plus any additional Reaper monster buffs, player debuffs, etc. that only apply to R1.

It would definitely be helpful if the devs clarify how reaper is impacted.

This is largely correct.

Reaper mode does a few things to monsters. Some of those things are proportional, some are flat. What this means that in some ways, Reaper mode will in fact be getting harder, because the flat bonuses are not changing. If the base value of the bonus goes down proportionally, but the flat reaper mode stuff stays the same, then yes, this does weirdly enough put us in a situation where NOT adjusting Reaper mode's rules will make it effectively proportionally more difficult.

[Hawkwier]

This is largely correct.

Reaper mode does a few things to monsters. Some of those things are proportional, some are flat. What this means that in some ways, Reaper mode will in fact be getting harder, because the flat bonuses are not changing. If the base value of the bonus goes down proportionally, but the flat reaper mode stuff stays the same, then yes, this does weirdly enough put us in a situation where NOT adjusting Reaper mode's rules will make it effectively proportionally more difficult.

That's not a helpful development at all I'm afraid. If you don't adjust the flat values proportionally then you are not in fact reducing mob power to balance player nerfs effectively for a large part of the game. Whether this is justified or not is irrelevant here. The perception will be that, whatever other impacts it may have had, "U50 has nerfed my toon, devs", and some will feel cheated and angry about that. With the prospect of U51 potentially adding further nerfs, angry at, and losing trust in SSG, some may elect not to continue to play the game, whether with justification or not. For them you aren't selling them fun any more. Essentially you are gambling the number of such folks will be small enough to prove insignificant. But that's a gamble you don't need to, and shouldn't, take as part of such a fundamental, complex, and far-reaching change to the game. I would suggest you rethink this approach in the strongest terms, and look at balancing reaper difficulty as a distinct issue at a more appropriate time after U50 and U51 impacts have been settled and folks have adjusted to that and are feeling confident/comfortable with the new environment. You can't say you weren't warned of the potential consequences if not.

Personally I'm minded to load up my sagas while things are stable, and then take a break from the game until after U51 has been delivered and fallout settled, and then look back in to see if it's worth coming back post all the changes. The sort of approach and thinking evident here suggests to me that this transition is going to be painful, and regrettably that's not something I'm much interested in playing through. I prefer my games to be fun rather than frustrating. It will be fantastic if you get it right. Trouble is with this approach I have significant doubt that you can. So for now I'll wish you all the very best of luck, and hopefully see you on the other side of this.

[Monkey_Archer]

This is largely correct.

Reaper mode does a few things to monsters. Some of those things are proportional, some are flat. What this means that in some ways, Reaper mode will in fact be getting harder, because the flat bonuses are not changing. If the base value of the bonus goes down proportionally, but the flat reaper mode stuff stays the same, then yes, this does weirdly enough put us in a situation where NOT adjusting Reaper mode's rules will make it effectively proportionally more difficult.

Good. Mostly...

While I think R1 should probably be made easier (for the sake of new players getting into reaper and leveling purposes) R10 has been too easy for quite some time now, and having a challenging endgame is more important from my perspective.

[jakeelala]

the obvious thing to do here is to really reduce the benefits of reaper points past cosmetic/bragging rights

[Chai]

My token in the office pool was they would redact the scaling back of the mob abilities in reaper.

What should be done is keep the re-scaling in r1-4, and keep the hard-mode on in r5-10.

[merlinfire1]

we'll change and we'll roll with it. gotta be hard to be a dev for an mmo. every time anything changes, people come out of the woodwork and either call you stupid or attribute deliberate malice and greed, as if these are not the people who are creating all this content and supporting the game you guys love...

imagine if people whined like this to their DM on game night...

[slarden]

This is largely correct.

Reaper mode does a few things to monsters. Some of those things are proportional, some are flat. What this means that in some ways, Reaper mode will in fact be getting harder, because the flat bonuses are not changing. If the base value of the bonus goes down proportionally, but the flat reaper mode stuff stays the same, then yes, this does weirdly enough put us in a situation where NOT adjusting Reaper mode's rules will make it effectively proportionally more difficult.

Thank you for the response - this is very helpful. Almost everyone I know is running content on higher skulls and still completing faster compared to a few years ago. If this is slight proxy buff for reaper enemies I don't think it's a huge issue. Most people will probably still be completing higher skulls and faster compared to a few years ago.

As others said the people most impacted would be those at low skulls so if you are looking at giving people relief that need it the most R1-R4 is probably the right place to do that. I don't think any downward stat adjustment is needed for R5+. Higher skull quests are tremendously over-rewarded relative to the additional risk and time involved and not super challenging for a full experienced group other than the occasional vengeance reaper debacles.

[Suggestion]

Mistakenly posted to the wrong discussion.

[LittleLexi]

As others have mentioned— r1-4 doesn't need to become more difficult. A significant portion of the playerbase spend their time here. But in addition to smoothing over these changes mechanically— reaper xp needs to be divided better, so as to not be so top heavy i.e a pittance everywhere but Legendary Reapers where it is ginormous in comparison.

[Singular]

On one hand I have to admit that reaper has likely become too easy.

On the óther hand I agree that making reaper much more difficult will make catching up far more difficult.

I am not really sure what the right answer is here. Maybe lowering difficulty for R1-4 but not for R5+.

Or extend the reaper to 20!