Hope you have already farmed all your reaper xp

[Enderoc]

THIS!!

For those who have already maxed reaper, no problem. Who cares.

Those of us who have not, yeah this is going to hit us.

I got a friend to play when the free content came out. He even signed up for VIP, played about 3 months and quit.

I asked why......... "Power Cap to great, going to play a game where it is not so big". I had been playing classic WOW with him, I assume he went back there.


I like Reaper, but it does increase the power gap between the haves and have nots. I hope I am wrong, but U50 and U51 changes looks like its going in the wrong way.

First time players really need to play clerics at first my opinion.... self healing is the key to survival so having it built in while you learn the game is your best bet. If you go into this game as anything other than a divine class...unless you intend to group up in every instance you are going to struggle. Hirelings are normally pretty good but they can be unpredictable.
Really a player should do cleric first life then a paladin next to learn both support caster and melee while obtaining positive healing amp...from there they should be familiar with how the basics of everything works more so if they engage with the community.
I am in the spot where I am relearning old quests and becoming familiar with new so am going solo a whole lot. It took me a while to remember to jump on the upper balcony to jump on the pipes in spies a bit ago.... I was like...how do I get on top these....kind of embarrassing as I didn't mean to pike it. I finally remembered though. A new player might have the same kind of experience so will be prone to solo much of the content as well.... which is why self healing starting out is very important.
Many people quit because the vets make it look easy while they struggle... but trust me, a lot of these vets have been carried in other people's packs more times then you could count during their time here.

[axel15810]

I agree with them that reaper likely has become too easy. I always have had the philosophy that R10 anything should be basically impossible to complete, even in the best of the best groups. It's healthy to give even the best of the best players always something harder to shoot for. Even on a not great build I can manage to solo some R4 endgame ravenloft stuff which is pretty silly IMO for mode designed to not cater to soloing.

That said, yeah, there is a big issue with new players/alts needing to catch up it now will be much harder to do so if things go this way. Maybe reducing the RXP requirements for the first 21 reaper points or so would be fair. Getting your first 21 is the big barrier to entry for new players/characters. Big power boost there inside and outside of reaper from the cores.

[Vish]

i told em they needed a reaper nerf

so they nerfed epics

i have wings on kil, good enough for r10s

i imagine these changes ie the item nerfs, not so much ed,
will bring it back down to r6 or so/

[Cordovan]

There will be some push and pull in terms of speed of Reaper XP acquisition over time, and the work being done for Update 50 will have some impact in the ability of those able to do it to cruise through higher difficulty Reaper for better XP. But while that is important to consider, it can't be a key driver in preventing the game from doing what needs to be done to improve balance and general fun, right? Ultimately, if the experience needs to be adjusted in the future, it can be, but we'll be in a much better place to make those adjustments after the work for Update 50 is complete.

[OfElectricMen]

There will be some push and pull in terms of speed of Reaper XP acquisition over time, and the work being done for Update 50 will have some impact in the ability of those able to do it to cruise through higher difficulty Reaper for better XP. But while that is important to consider, it can't be a key driver in preventing the game from doing what needs to be done to improve balance and general fun, right? Ultimately, if the experience needs to be adjusted in the future, it can be, but we'll be in a much better place to make those adjustments after the work for Update 50 is complete.

Well you haven't raised it as a problem yet, perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut. All you guys need to get off the forums, learn to build toons and play reaper. Some people have one toon at 156+ alrs at 130 and further couple of alts above 100 reaper points. This is how far you have all fallen behind farming collectibles and messing around in heriocs doing past lives. You have no one else to blame. The sad thing is we've been telling u past lives dont mean jack and farm your reaper xp, but you already know it all. Alot of you don't like reaper, don't do reaper, yet want to get involved in tearing down the fundamental core enjoyment of alot of players at cap. If anything I hoping this gear nerf will now encourage the devs to match the nerf and extending the reaper trees to 300 points. Bring it on !!! Another 4 years of farming reaper xp woot!!

Meh.

If the high-skull Reaper players actually wanted a challenge, they would lobby the Devs to simply remove Reaper points entirely. Reaper XP would apply ONLY to gaining fancy cosmetics. And anything R6+ would Mord's Disjunct all the player gear.

[Hawkwier]

So the devs mention in the live stream that they have noticed reapers are too easy and are thinking of not removing the mobs saves or changing anything to match the massive nerf to gear. This is awesome news up the difficulty, however it will make it even harder for for new players to farm reaper xp. Again, you all complained and reap what you sow. This is definitely a positive to all the peeps that have already maxed their reaper trees. Really going to suck if you don't have reaper points to back you up. Lol, talk about spread the gap further. Anyway agree with all the changes, it's great. It's like the reaper players have had 4 years or so farming reaper on easy mode

If true and implemented, this is a HUGE mistake in terms of delivering a successful U50 transition.

I'm not saying there isn't scope to look at upping reaper difficulty, but if there is, doing so as part of this transition is utter folly.

If the effect of the transition is to disenfranchise player power in relative terms, even moderately, there is a significant risk that players will feel cheated by SSG. If that happens, then folks are gonna leave. This game cannot afford to lose players, whether they agree or disagree with you, me or anyone else. Losing players is a very bad, possibly even disastrous outcome and will mean this transition, and potentially the game, fails.

Failure to reduce the relative power on any difficulty, from casual through to R10, will adversely affect the perception of enjoyment for many folks on those difficulties. The only reason many are accepting the U50 nerfs is the expectation that relative power balance is maintained. If you don't think so, then consider the outcome if the player nerfs had simply been announced on their own.

The Devs are quite at liberty to believe that reaper is too easy. If pushed for a position I would actually tend to agree with them, though it's a very subjective opinion based on player power and experience. What they are most certainly not at liberty to do though, is to seek to do something about that at any point during this transition. I can't stress how stupid, stupid, stupid such an attempt would be in terms of risk to adverse impact on the player population. Even voicing such on livestream is a bloody stupid move IMO. There are players out there who are facing significant uncertainty and concerns about how this will all shape out for them. For many, if they don't like what they get they will walk. They do not need further uncertainty and perceived threat, they need support and reassurance that everything will work out OK. Put simply this transition is testing some players loyalties to the game to fragility.

The Devs are not managers of change, and that is fine, as they are developers. They know what they know and have a particular set of skills. But they do need to understand that in the sort of massive change programme they are now engaged in, it isn't enough to be right, your have to take people with you, or you fail. And strong communication is absolutely key to keeping people on side in that regard. Messages like this are anathema to that principle. They need to get a grip of what they say and how they say it, or risk losing players. They need to REALLY understand the fragile context in which they are now operating. A context which they have introduced. What they are doing is brave, but it's brave for a reason!

To clarify from a personal perspective, as matters stand, I am supportive of the U50 changes, however in any event I will not be buying anything in U50 until the dust has settled on U51, as I'm simply not spending any more money on the game at all until I'm satisfied that I will want to keep playing it post U51 (whilst some of the recent Dev feedback on U51 has been pretty encouraging, I am not sufficiently satisfied or confident yet in that regard). In short, I'm not immune to the fragility of loyalty to the game that has been introduced, and my main has all PLs (apart from a few heroics of little use to it) and a big chunk of RXP, so I'm likely to be less impacted than many.

This sort of spit-ball messaging from the Devs, like the sort of perceived contemp for players apparent in statements relating to dire charge, reinforces my opinion of the matter. I want the Devs to succeed. I'm not yet convinced they will though, and stuff like this just confirms my fears. They need to have far better self-discipline in this regard. What they say matters. It matters a lot.

At this time, not ensuring that all mob/environment difficulty is scaled back appropriately to at least match current performance is unacceptable. It will leave too many folks unable or unwilling to accept the changes. Too early to say, and I don't want to go there, but in all fairness, I might well yet turn out to be one of them, and there are many more players likely to be in a worse off position than me.

[rabidfox]

Meh.

If the high-skull Reaper players actually wanted a challenge, they would lobby the Devs to simply remove Reaper points entirely. Reaper XP would apply ONLY to gaining fancy cosmetics. And anything R6+ would Mord's Disjunct all the player gear.

I play for risk/reward. If there's no reward as part of the equation then I wouldn't play high skulls unless I was bored.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Being a 29 year old d&d veteran, let me give you some DM advice developers. There is nothing wrong with not knowing every rule or the mechanical philosophy behind every little +1. But your players WILL.

That heavily depends on with whom you play.

If you have never played with any other kinds of players than number-crunchers, then you will get the impression that players know everything.

"Maybe", some will say, "that is because (A)D&D is based on war gaming." Which *is* kind of number crunching.

It heavily disturbs me, though, that story playing is so extremely frowned upon. It's almost as if a player base was so completely brainwashed as to do nothing but number-crunching

"Maybe", you will say, "(A)D&D is not the right game for you, then."

To me, when I came to role-playing, it was about playing adventures. Not combat simulations.
For me, it was about playing stories not about power.
To me, it was about playing within a living, breathing world, and not about loot.



Therefore, I always wonder why I'm so much a (subjectively felt) minority here.
Actually NO_ONE talks about story !
Actually NO-ONE talks about background lore !
Actually NO-ONE is interested in the backstory of NPCs !

All which people are interested in, is power, loot, number-crunching.

As I wrote long ago, maybe it's the game. That a math-heavy game attracts like people, and that is : Math-heavy people. And you really can't tell stories through pure mathematics.

The Devs are quite at liberty to believe that reaper is too easy.

There are threads wil people bragging about soloing content in R10, and STILL saying "it is too easy".

[Vorachtin]

Reaper is the most fun and only meaningful part of the game. Cater to your casuals at your own peril, who do you thinks spends more money casuals or elites?

[superevbully]

Reaper is the most fun and only meaningful part of the game. Cater to your casuals at your own peril, who do you thinks spends more money casuals or elites?

Im x3 all blah blah blah and this is excatly what is gonna happen ......divide

[Vish]

There will be some push and pull in terms of speed of Reaper XP acquisition over time, and the work being done for Update 50 will have some impact in the ability of those able to do it to cruise through higher difficulty Reaper for better XP. But while that is important to consider, it can't be a key driver in preventing the game from doing what needs to be done to improve balance and general fun, right? Ultimately, if the experience needs to be adjusted in the future, it can be, but we'll be in a much better place to make those adjustments after the work for Update 50 is complete.

im taking screenshots of my monk when i get back to 30
already have them but was looking for that oh slight improvement
like raid items and feytwist stuff

i know i will not see those numbers again til 50
not thats theres a 50 dnd game...

so in essence not that i will see these numbers again
ever

[Catabree]

Meh.

If the high-skull Reaper players actually wanted a challenge, they would lobby the Devs to simply remove Reaper points entirely. Reaper XP would apply ONLY to gaining fancy cosmetics. And anything R6+ would Mord's Disjunct all the player gear.

You seem to forget it was it was challenge when reaper came out, we rarely started doing r10s. Most of us have ground out reaper for 4 years to get to the point where we have matched the content difficulty. Would you like us to run content while removing all gear and resetting all reaper points, just for a challenge? No way, steam rolling is super fun, we worked hard to be like this. So looking at the devs idea to not adjust reaper is fine, however its a lazy fix, with no incentive. We made you work for 4 years and you met the challenge, however we cannot be bothered extending the trees or too many people may complain, so we plan to just make the content impossible? Continue the reaper trees, it the obvious choice, if people don't like it they can stick to elite, they don't have to do it. We are turning this game upside down for new players. How many new players do you know? Beside the occasional sock account claiming to be a
new player on these forums, do you even know what they do. I'm in a guild that has new players.
They run with us in r10 content and love it. They understand that messing around in heriocs is a waste of time.

We are powergamers, min maxers, getting the most power, hitting the hardest and killing the quickest we can. This is whats fun for us. If they make it harder, add rewards to encourage running the high content. It can go to an extreme where no dc's work at all, can't hit a mob. At that point they have gone too far. The highest difficulties need to still be able to be completed if you have the correct classes and players. Currently r10s don't need a tank, and for the most part can get away with spot heals.
Make r10s so you need a tank, need healers and need cc. This would be a better idea instead of making impossible content.

[Catabree]

I play for risk/reward. If there's no reward as part of the equation then I wouldn't play high skulls unless I was bored.

Exactly.

[anangel22]

That heavily depends on with whom you play.

If you have never played with any other kinds of players than number-crunchers, then you will get the impression that players know everything.

"Maybe", some will say, "that is because (A)D&D is based on war gaming." Which *is* kind of number crunching.

It heavily disturbs me, though, that story playing is so extremely frowned upon. It's almost as if a player base was so completely brainwashed as to do nothing but number-crunching

"Maybe", you will say, "(A)D&D is not the right game for you, then."

To me, when I came to role-playing, it was about playing adventures. Not combat simulations.
For me, it was about playing stories not about power.
To me, it was about playing within a living, breathing world, and not about loot.



Therefore, I always wonder why I'm so much a (subjectively felt) minority here.
Actually NO_ONE talks about story !
Actually NO-ONE talks about background lore !
Actually NO-ONE is interested in the backstory of NPCs !

All which people are interested in, is power, loot, number-crunching.

As I wrote long ago, maybe it's the game. That a math-heavy game attracts like people, and that is : Math-heavy people. And you really can't tell stories through pure mathematics.

Almost all enthusiastic pnp players I know are mainly in for the roleplaying AND have a good understanding of the mechanics. Could be just about you... And I pretty much envision you as that one guy who always manages to roll the dice off table, having to check his sheet for minutes, "uhhhm, what was my damage again?" and disrupting the flow of the game for everyone.

As for your usual DDO is story rant: Yeah, you have about half a day to 2 days to experience the story every few months. And then? Bang your head on the wall till you forget all about the quests? You are making no sense - as usual.

[anangel22]

Meh.

If the high-skull Reaper players actually wanted a challenge, they would lobby the Devs to simply remove Reaper points entirely. Reaper XP would apply ONLY to gaining fancy cosmetics. And anything R6+ would Mord's Disjunct all the player gear.

Well, we all know how games like DDO work Of cause rewards are involved in player motivation.

[awar1234]

Well many of us have been asking and asking to TOTALLY GET RID OF REAPER TREES.

Problem solved

Ps …… you can keep the reaper vendors

[Catabree]

Well many of us have been asking and asking to TOTALLY GET RID OF REAPER TREES.

Problem solved

Ps …… you can keep the reaper vendors

Do you have any idea how many people have spent years, spending money on 50% pots, buying cakes having endless wipe to get where we are? Ddo is reaper, like it or loath it. If they screw over the vets and the people that have been farming these points, mark my words...you will be playing solo on empty servers...absolutely guaranteed 100% it would be the final straw. It would be the biggest mistake any mmorpg has ever made in it history...period.

[danlan]

There will be some push and pull in terms of speed of Reaper XP acquisition over time, and the work being done for Update 50 will have some impact in the ability of those able to do it to cruise through higher difficulty Reaper for better XP. But while that is important to consider, it can't be a key driver in preventing the game from doing what needs to be done to improve balance and general fun, right? Ultimately, if the experience needs to be adjusted in the future, it can be, but we'll be in a much better place to make those adjustments after the work for Update 50 is complete.

@lynnabels as well

Is it not the intention of U50 and U51 to standardize the stats?

If you are to keep all reaper mobs stats as is, then you will still have sharn reaper mobs much much stronger than ravenloft reaper mobs etc.

Doesn't this defeat the purpose of U50 and U51 changes?


I think if you are to reduce player power, you should reduce mob power regardless of reaper or not. And I also think you have to make sure the reduction is consistent and standardized.

[Tilomere]

And I also think you have to make sure the reduction is consistent and standardized.

If you want to standardize power vs. investment, I also think you have to depreciate existing pools of reaper points by how much more difficult future reaper points are to accumulate. Converting "Reaper Points" at a 2:1 ratio into new "Challenge Points" would accomplish that for the scenario where reaper point accumulation becomes twice as difficult.

[slarden]

@lynnabels as well

Is it not the intention of U50 and U51 to standardize the stats?

If you are to keep all reaper mobs stats as is, then you will still have sharn reaper mobs much much stronger than ravenloft reaper mobs etc.

Doesn't this defeat the purpose of U50 and U51 changes?


I think if you are to reduce player power, you should reduce mob power regardless of reaper or not. And I also think you have to make sure the reduction is consistent and standardized.

If I understand the change correctly epic resilience and other stat changes impacting elite will also impact reaper.

The only thing that isn't changing is the reaper scaling #s and some of those are straight % rather than #s or dice.

This isn't going to keep me up at night - not sure why anyone thinks it's a huge problem.

We are powergamers, min maxers, getting the most power, hitting the hardest and killing the quickest we can. This is whats fun for us. If they make it harder, add rewards to encourage running the high content. It can go to an extreme where no dc's work at all, can't hit a mob. At that point they have gone too far. The highest difficulties need to still be able to be completed if you have the correct classes and players. Currently r10s don't need a tank, and for the most part can get away with spot heals.
Make r10s so you need a tank, need healers and need cc. This would be a better idea instead of making impossible content.

You are not describing a power gamer you describing a reward chaser that puts in alot of time - big difference.

People that really love challenge look at this as an opportunity to face new challenges and learn new ways to overcome those challenges.

Reaper is the most fun and only meaningful part of the game. Cater to your casuals at your own peril, who do you thinks spends more money casuals or elites?

I am really confused why people that consider themselves elite are getting their underwear all tied up in knots over a stat squish. What am I missing here?