Hope you have already farmed all your reaper xp

[Marshal_Lannes]

I am the one that did the breakdown of hp gained by a max hp and it was with a full 156 comparison and all past lifes with and without epic defensive fighting...It might not fit your narrative, but the math is accurate unless you can find an error.



You are not alone. Many people that mostly run heroics are a bit lost at end game. You mainly just need to change your mindset and play at end game a bit more to improve.

If you scroll back up you will see I address the max PL comparison and state since it is out of the scope of this topic I don't dive completely into it (but yes people should get free EPLs/Racial PLs/Heroic PLs to close the gap also). Your math is accurate, the true number is much closer to 1300 than 400.

I'm not lost at end game. I do not have, nor never will acquire the stat accumulation needed to get into the top two DPS slots of a R10 group. It is literally impossible for me. Even if I were to quit my job and life and spend 10 hours a day playing DDO every day I would still never get there because those characters in the top two spots of a R10 group have such an enormous power advantage the chasm cannot be bridged. There are no improvements to be made aside from accumulation, which many other posts have pointed out, is impossible without a catchup mechanic.

Here is a real-world example from yesterday running R10. I'm an L28 inquisitive, fairly powerful character. KC in Feywild, the group leader 60, FVS 25, Me 10, bottom three 5, 2, 1. When I'm in the 3 slot, R10 quests are going to be hard and they were, but doable. For me to even be in the 3 slot at L28 with still some heroic gear should dispel your notion that I need some type of "skill" improvement. I have all the DDO skills I need. It is now only about accumulation. Now, inquisitive is a fairly strong archetype and if I were L30 and had optimized gear I could probably edge up toward that FVS. But that gear is being nerfed (I'm fine with the nerfs btw but these things need to go hand in hand, hence the purpose of these posts) so really I won't be getting much benefit from L28 to L30 gear when the updates roll in. So how can I close the gap? Only through accumulation. If you see another way, I'm open to suggestions.

[scut207]

And kill count is an excellent measurement tool.

Nope. never.

It tells us nothing about who healed who.
It tells us nothing about who took the most/least damage ( spent more time being useful).
It tells us nothing about who DPS'd the most.
It tells us nothing about who locked/CCd down the champs.
It tells us nothing about who's hitting their DCs

Its the least useful stat in the whole report. We already know the AoE damage build(s) in the group.

But a lot of your calls for nerfs and being forum paladin numero uno on hating casters at least makes sense to me now.

I wish you could be as informed as you are verbose.

[LurkingVeteran]

I think the problem with Reaper is that it's quite a large boost in hp, and even if getting the early reaper points doesn't take that much time, it's going to be pretty painful when everybody else in reaper PUGs will have so much more hp. Getting those first reaper points is going to be a bad experience.

Some ideas:
-They could move some of the reaper HP to Heroic Durability (scaled by level) to even the scales a bit in reaper.
-They could implement a real Defensive Fighting feat that actually gives you something like +10hp/level and -30% damage so those new/returning players on light melee can compensate for their lack of reaper hp if they join a reaper PUG and keep dying.

I also feel the design of EDF was really strange in that 1) you always use it, 2) it's a % boost so barbs get more hp than rogues/monks/rangers, when it was the latter who really needed it.

[SockyMcSockerton]

There is no argument there it just proves my point even more clearly, it boils down to is the fact that the players are good, know the quests, avoid danger, take less chances, and don't waste resources on useless stuff. The person I referenced managed to Racial TR after looking at the updated thread 17 times and ETR 15 times in a 3 month period and capping over 6700 favor meaning they completed over 95% of available favor. That is not luck, that is a skilled player grouping with skilled players doing everything possible as a team and not running ahead like plenty of those people who die at or before level 5 do no skill, knowledge, gear, or understanding of the game at all required.

Yes, you are correct that a vanishingly small % of players are able to do this.

[slarden]

If you scroll back up you will see I address the max PL comparison and state since it is out of the scope of this topic I don't dive completely into it (but yes people should get free EPLs/Racial PLs/Heroic PLs to close the gap also). Your math is accurate, the true number is much closer to 1300 than 400.

I'm not lost at end game. I do not have, nor never will acquire the stat accumulation needed to get into the top two DPS slots of a R10 group. It is literally impossible for me. Even if I were to quit my job and life and spend 10 hours a day playing DDO every day I would still never get there because those characters in the top two spots of a R10 group have such an enormous power advantage the chasm cannot be bridged. There are no improvements to be made aside from accumulation, which many other posts have pointed out, is impossible without a catchup mechanic.

Here is a real-world example from yesterday running R10. I'm an L28 inquisitive, fairly powerful character. KC in Feywild, the group leader 60, FVS 25, Me 10, bottom three 5, 2, 1. When I'm in the 3 slot, R10 quests are going to be hard and they were, but doable. For me to even be in the 3 slot at L28 with still some heroic gear should dispel your notion that I need some type of "skill" improvement. I have all the DDO skills I need. It is now only about accumulation. Now, inquisitive is a fairly strong archetype and if I were L30 and had optimized gear I could probably edge up toward that FVS. But that gear is being nerfed (I'm fine with the nerfs btw but these things need to go hand in hand, hence the purpose of these posts) so really I won't be getting much benefit from L28 to L30 gear when the updates roll in. So how can I close the gap? Only through accumulation. If you see another way, I'm open to suggestions.

The 408 # I provided was not total hp, it was the difference between 35 and 100 reaper points. It's exactly 408 and no other #. If you want to look at the difference between a first lifer with 0 reaper points and a max character with 156 reaper points yes it's like 1600 with epic defensive fighting factored in and I detail that math either earlier here or in another thread on this topic.

I think you can do R10 quests at end game with 35 reaper points and you might die more because 408 hp isn't insignificant esp when any % boosts are factored in, but the dps gain from those extra 65 points isn't huge.

There are people that do way more dps testing than I do but I don't think inquisitive will match bow ranger or vistani thrower dps. It will be way behind most melees. If you are on Sarlona I'll be happy to bring my tank so you can do some dps testing and compare the #s with other builds once you are 30 with max gear.

If I in any way implied you needed skill improvements that was not intended. My intent was to communicate that running reaper in heroics and running R10s at cap are not equivalent and more experience will likely result in improvements.

I say the exact same thing about myself when it comes to pushing skulls in reaper raiding - I haven't done it much and have alot of room for growth there.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I've been trying different classes to see what I like most at R10. I don't find evo caster fun (at all). I'm not into the hold/cc thing and their DPS is rather bad after 4 or 5 skulls. I don't have the accumulation to be a DC caster. THF Paladin is alright in certain groups but I have more fun on Inquisitive. Will be trying alchemist and FVS soon. I'm going to try bow ranger when horizon walker comes out. The barb bears seem to do quite well but that isn't my thing. With more reaper points my Inquisitive would be up over 2000 HPs which feels like a nice safe(ish) place for an improved evasion ranged character.

[Catabree]

In 2021 we're still basing positions on last hit sniping?

In heroics?

Your example doesn't make one a better player or a better build. This means one consumed more time on their character than the other person in the same quest (often referred to as "well farmed" in most competitive games). DDO is 5% skill 95% time consumption. Their design template is literally level scaling HP /stat bloat on a per CR basis, and their generator scaling decides how many mobs to place in the middle of the hallway depending on how many characters + what classes are present. Once you have reached the ceiling of your skill (literally one encounter into a quest), the rest is how much time you consumed stacking character power on the same toon. This is a community that moans about 2 APM to keep minute long buffs up, and its not like circle strafing is hard. They even removed the need to hit cleave hotkeys for an entire archetype. There's multiplicatively more skill needed to navigate the few jumping puzzle style quests than there is in killing mobs, which can be committed to muscle memory. Hit the same sequence of keys, every time - with but a few exceptions.

Congrats on being well farmed.

Ddo is 5% skill 95% time. I will tell you this, I can absolutely guarantee you I could make a first life sorc with 0 reaper points, however have all the gear and blow you complainers out the water in kills on r1 heriocs and nearly complete the quest before you even step in. Stop fooling yourself, sick of hearing this rubbish, you would lucky to have enough time to put ya voice on

[Catabree]

I've been trying different classes to see what I like most at R10. I don't find evo caster fun (at all). I'm not into the hold/cc thing and their DPS is rather bad after 4 or 5 skulls. I don't have the accumulation to be a DC caster. THF Paladin is alright in certain groups but I have more fun on Inquisitive. Will be trying alchemist and FVS soon. I'm going to try bow ranger when horizon walker comes out. The barb bears seem to do quite well but that isn't my thing. With more reaper points my Inquisitive would be up over 2000 HPs which feels like a nice safe(ish) place for an improved evasion ranged character.

Hi Marshal after some consideration myself and some friends have decided to transfer some toons to your server server to help out. These toon are at cap no past lives, some have a few reaper points. PM me your server and character name and we will be there to show you some real awesomesause. Please work your way to lv 30 though.

[Weemadarthur]

I've been trying different classes to see what I like most at R10. I don't find evo caster fun (at all). I'm not into the hold/cc thing and their DPS is rather bad after 4 or 5 skulls. I don't have the accumulation to be a DC caster. THF Paladin is alright in certain groups but I have more fun on Inquisitive. Will be trying alchemist and FVS soon. I'm going to try bow ranger when horizon walker comes out. The barb bears seem to do quite well but that isn't my thing. With more reaper points my Inquisitive would be up over 2000 HPs which feels like a nice safe(ish) place for an improved evasion ranged character.

This post actually highlights your problem with high reapers. You are only able to work in one metric which is dps (most kills is all that's important). The fact is high reaper is about more than dps. Those people that never hit the top of the kill count are normally more vital to the group success than those in the number 2 or 3 slot. My advice is instead of trying to compete with your teammates start looking at what else you can do to make their lives easier. With that small change in your perspective you will find high reapers become easier and you will start to truly see how high reaper really works.

[Weemadarthur]

Ddo is 5% skill 95% time. I will tell you this, I can absolutely guarantee you I could make a first life sorc with 0 reaper points, however have all the gear and blow you complainers out the water in kills on r1 heriocs and nearly complete the quest before you even step in. Stop fooling yourself, sick of hearing this rubbish, you would lucky to have enough time to put ya voice on

Just a suggestion but why don't you all meet up on the next HC where you all start at the same level? This should pretty much iron out the egos for sure. All start with no gear, only use what you can find and answer once and for all who really can do what. I'm willing to put my token in the ring (although really not expecting to break any records or lead any killcounts).

[Marshal_Lannes]

This post actually highlights your problem with high reapers. You are only able to work in one metric which is dps (most kills is all that's important). The fact is high reaper is about more than dps. Those people that never hit the top of the kill count are normally more vital to the group success than those in the number 2 or 3 slot. My advice is instead of trying to compete with your teammates start looking at what else you can do to make their lives easier. With that small change in your perspective you will find high reapers become easier and you will start to truly see how high reaper really works.

I do not spend my time in this game so that I can be Rosencrantz or Guildenstern.

[boredGamer]

I do not spend my time in this game so that I can be Rosencrantz or Guildenstern.

Oh what a joy of a team attitude.

[Tobril]

If you see another way, I'm open to suggestions.

A few ways in no particular order:


1) Ask for input from other players for your current gear/enhancements/level-split/etc.

2) Record your play. Review on your own and with other players. I guarantee you'll find ways to improve.

3) When working on improving your skill level, choose one specific area to practice. ("do more damage" is too broad, something like "adrenaline into sniper shot" is the correct granularity) Work on that skill consistently until it becomes second nature. Once you've consistently performed as desired, pick a new aspect of your play and repeat the process. Review your progress after fixing a few flaws and/or sharpening skills you're already good at in order to maintain motivation.

4) Set goals. "Collect a bunch of stuff" is too broad. "Get enough runes to buy a heart of suulamades in four weeks" is good. Once your goal is chosen do a little math to figure out if the goal is achievable. Adjust the time as needed, don't worry if you're a little off so long as it's close. Eventually you'll become better at estimating and reaching goals in a specific timeframe.

[Chai]

I do not spend my time in this game so that I can be Rosencrantz or Guildenstern.

The Diana Moon Glampers game balance model won't fix that.

[Catabree]

Just a suggestion but why don't you all meet up on the next HC where you all start at the same level? This should pretty much iron out the egos for sure. All start with no gear, only use what you can find and answer once and for all who really can do what. I'm willing to put my token in the ring (although really not expecting to break any records or lead any killcounts).

Lol bring it on!!

[Catabree]

Well seems like we can wrap up another thread about people complaining about the power gap, but the real problem being their lack of ability to work as a team,this is a very important skill in high reaper content. Also most important this finally highlights the problem of people blaming their poor skills and lack of knowledge on the power gap. Still waiting for the pm so we can transfer servers and put a bullet in this myth once and for all. Happy gaming.

[slarden]

Well seems like we can wrap up another thread about people complaining about the power gap, but the real problem being their lack of ability to work as a team,this is a very important skill in high reaper content. Also most important this finally highlights the problem of people blaming their poor skills and lack of knowledge on the power gap. Still waiting for the pm so we can transfer servers and put a bullet in this myth once and for all. Happy gaming.

Realistically both are true. The power gap is both real and significant. When running R10 teamwork is important.

People shouldn't hold back on reaper questing due to lack of reaper points. Everyone with high reaper points at one time had low reaper points. They accumulate very fast when your reaper point total is low.

You earlier said this regarding skill

Ddo is 5% skill 95% time.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Well seems like we can wrap up another thread about people complaining about the power gap, but the real problem being their lack of ability to work as a team,this is a very important skill in high reaper content. Also most important this finally highlights the problem of people blaming their poor skills and lack of knowledge on the power gap. Still waiting for the pm so we can transfer servers and put a bullet in this myth once and for all. Happy gaming.

Does it? I've always been on Orien. Why would I PM you to join an antagonist group? I have limited time to achieve my goals in DDO you'll have to make a far more compelling argument than you've made to entice me to group with you.

I do agree this thread had exhausted its fuel. We all have seen there is a massive, insurmountable power gap that can be somewhat bridged by equipment and player skill. Equipment is being nerfed so it's advisable that DDO closes this gap in another manner. We've also realized DDO, in epics, is about accumulation. Accumulation accounts for the vast majority of party contributions. This has been a highly productive thread.

[Catabree]

Does it? I've always been on Orien. Why would I PM you to join an antagonist group? I have limited time to achieve my goals in DDO you'll have to make a far more compelling argument than you've made to entice me to group with you.

I do agree this thread had exhausted its fuel. We all have seen there is a massive, insurmountable power gap that can be somewhat bridged by equipment and player skill. Equipment is being nerfed so it's advisable that DDO closes this gap in another manner. We've also realized DDO, in epics, is about accumulation. Accumulation accounts for the vast majority of party contributions. This has been a highly productive thread.

You will be fine, after changes. In all seriousness, step outside you comfort zone , transfer to Khyber send me a pm. We have a large group of end game players

[Tobril]

I do agree this thread had exhausted its fuel. We all have seen there is a massive, insurmountable power gap that can be somewhat bridged by equipment and player skill. Equipment is being nerfed so it's advisable that DDO closes this gap in another manner. We've also realized DDO, in epics, is about accumulation. Accumulation accounts for the vast majority of party contributions. This has been a highly productive thread.

While there's not the same kind of catchup mechanism other games have, there are a few:

1) Feywild gear - More than good enough to get someone to LH raids and R4 questing with a single pack of quests.

2) Guilds, discord, other knowledgeable players - The corona barb link is similar to someone I've met recently. They started playing a few months ago and now have a reaper and raid capable character thanks to guidance from existing and established players. The complexity of build options and lack of in-game performance metrics makes a new player experience quite varied based on what communities they join.


Even in games with power resets between expansions you'll notice that players tend to gravitate back to a similar level they previously occupied unless they make a concentrated effort to improve. People who did Mythics in WoW will be right back to that difficulty after the expansion opens, while others will end up on normal or heroic.


"I can't" is one of the most guaranteed self-fulfilling prophecies.

I'd recommend that you seriously reflect on multiple feedback from varied sources refuting your claim by means of verifiable evidence.

Being coach-able will help you both here and in life.