U50 Preview 1: Endgame Itemization Adjustments

[Madja]

The more feedback we get, the better our changes are going to feel. Players have a huge range of stats and we want to make sure that everyone is having a good time, not just our super-engaged and talented min-maxxers who will overcome any challenge no matter what

Can I ask why, if this is the case, the test server is always left open for such a short amount of time? Not trying to rant or anything, just wondering what the reasoning is behind it. Is it because you can't work on it and have it open at the same time?

[Stravix]

Can I ask why, if this is the case, the test server is always left open for such a short amount of time? Not trying to rant or anything, just wondering what the reasoning is behind it. Is it because you can't work on it and have it open at the same time?

I have to echo this. With U51 on the horizon requiring plentiful testing, why is Lama still open in such short bursts?

I would love to help test more, but my weekend only availability clashes with lama being open on a few weekdays at a time fairly heavily.

[Monkey_Archer]

• The +W bonus from Keen has been adjusted to instead provide complete fortification bypass on a Natural 20. Note: The fortification bypass isn't yet working in this preview

While I definitely agree with, and have argued in favor of nerfing keen, this seems to go too far. Fortification bypass on 20 is going to have very limited usefulness on builds with low threat range weapons. On high threat range weapons with high fort bypass builds this may be mostly useless.
Please consider changing it to +0.1W per rank (+0.5W at level 30 for Keen V). This would keep it desirable on a large range of builds without completely overpowering other damaging effects.

[Stravix]

While I definitely agree with, and have argued in favor of nerfing keen, this seems to go too far. Fortification bypass on 20 is going to have very limited usefulness on builds with low threat range weapons. On high threat range weapons with high fort bypass builds this may be mostly useless.
Please consider changing it to +0.1W per rank (+0.5W at level 30 for Keen V). This would keep it desirable on a large range of builds without completely overpowering other damaging effects.

Honestly, I would prefer it to still be entirely crit focused.

Maybe a 5% stacking fort bypass for each keen after 1?

[slarden]

Players have a huge range of stats and we want to make sure that everyone is having a good time, not just our super-engaged and talented min-maxxers who will overcome any challenge no matter what

This is the right focus for sure, but I will point out that decreasing gear stats means a larger % of stats, hp and abilities comes from past lifes and reaper trees compared to now. Max stat bonus will be +14 and I get +3 charisma from racial lifes, +2 charisma life from racial completionist, +2 charisma from completionist, +5 from reaper trees.

So that's 14 pts from a regular item and 12 points from grind compared to 22 and 12.

I personally think the way the scaling of difficulty should work is that elite should not factor in grind benefits since grind stats are automatically baked into reaper mode with save, stat and debuff increases per skull. If grind stats aren't factored into elite than it's fine, otherwise people without those benefits are at a bigger disadvantage than prevoiusly.

[hit_fido]

While I definitely agree with, and have argued in favor of nerfing keen, this seems to go too far. Fortification bypass on 20 is going to have very limited usefulness on builds with low threat range weapons. On high threat range weapons with high fort bypass builds this may be mostly useless.
Please consider changing it to +0.1W per rank (+0.5W at level 30 for Keen V). This would keep it desirable on a large range of builds without completely overpowering other damaging effects.

What about: Keen and Impact add +0.1W per rank per natural multiplier but only on critical hits, not on all hits.

Keen V with a heavy pick would come out to +2W on critical hits

Keen V with a falchion would come out to +1W on critical hits

[Stravix]

What about: Keen and Impact add +0.1W per rank per natural multiplier but only on critical hits, not on all hits.

Keen V with a heavy pick would come out to +2W on critical hits

Keen V with a falchion would come out to +1W on critical hits

That would still leave us with keen weapons just being BiS still.

[Monkey_Archer]

What about: Keen and Impact add +0.1W per rank per natural multiplier but only on critical hits, not on all hits.

Keen V with a heavy pick would come out to +2W on critical hits

Keen V with a falchion would come out to +1W on critical hits

I like this as well. My suggestion would have keen surpass a typical 10d6 weapon effect at around 150-200 melee power depending on weapon/build (which may still be too strong after factoring debuffs). Whereas limiting it to crits would require 300+ melee power and/or multiple debuffs.

[Don1966]

For clarity, monster Armor Class and Fort were absolutely adjusted, and not by a little bit, either - every monster in Legendary Tier 2 content lost 100% Fortification. That being said, an early look has shown us that we may need to go much further on adjusting Armor Class. And that's okay, we're perfectly able to make more tweaks and changes to make monsters at our endgame feel fair. This is why we're so grateful that people took the time to copy their endgame characters to go try it all out (or spent time playing content with new characters made on Lamannia). The more feedback we get, the better our changes are going to feel. Players have a huge range of stats and we want to make sure that everyone is having a good time, not just our super-engaged and talented min-maxxers who will overcome any challenge no matter what

you also must change monsters saves, by a lot. my caster cleric lost 15 points of wisdom with this nerf, so a lose of 8 on the dc of spells just from that. with the upcoming nerf to epic destinies there will be another -3 on spell dcs from stat loss and another -3 from not being able to twist in spell school specialist from magister. then there is the loss from spell focus on items being nerfed. in legendary content pre sharn on live my cleric can land most spells, sharn and feywild with the massive boost to saves mobs got, spells land less than 40% of the time. now on Lam spells in sharn don't land at all on anything.

[Stravix]

you also must change monsters saves, by a lot. my caster cleric lost 15 points of wisdom with this nerf, so a lose of 8 on the dc of spells just from that. with the upcoming nerf to epic destinies there will be another -3 on spell dcs from stat loss and another -3 from not being able to twist in spell school specialist from magister. then there is the loss from spell focus on items being nerfed. in legendary content pre sharn on live my cleric can land most spells, sharn and feywild with the massive boost to saves mobs got, spells land less than 40% of the time. now on Lam spells in sharn don't land at all on anything.

They said that saves on legendary tier 2 content were reduced by 16, if that isn't what you are seeing, report it as a bug, because with the losses you mentioned, you should be landing your spells more often, not less

[Baahb3]

I've seen lots of talk about adjusting monster stats as needed.

I hope they have not forgotten about other things in legendary content that will be effected by a dramatic stat decrease and need adjusted.

All traps spot/search/disable will need to be lowered.
All secret doors spot/search will need to be lowered.
All locks will need to have the DC lowered.
All skill checks and stat checks will need to be lowered. (Dialogue options mainly and a few stats used for pulling levers or runes but there may be other things I am not thinking of right now.)

Intimidate checks vs enemies
Diplomacy Checks vs enemies
Balance checks to stand up
Concentration checks to use scrolls

[IBCrabin]

For clarity, monster Armor Class and Fort were absolutely adjusted, and not by a little bit, either - every monster in Legendary Tier 2 content lost 100% Fortification. That being said, an early look has shown us that we may need to go much further on adjusting Armor Class. And that's okay, we're perfectly able to make more tweaks and changes to make monsters at our endgame feel fair. This is why we're so grateful that people took the time to copy their endgame characters to go try it all out (or spent time playing content with new characters made on Lamannia). The more feedback we get, the better our changes are going to feel. Players have a huge range of stats and we want to make sure that everyone is having a good time, not just our super-engaged and talented min-maxxers who will overcome any challenge no matter what

Not sure if this is addressed somewhere,

Will the outdated named items in epic levels get adjusted? The old epic content, Gianthold, stormhorn, etc.

Reducing stat to rebalance the game is in focus, but bringing old content up to date is not mentioned.


Will the recently adjusted epic raid loot to readjusted as well? i.e. Mark of Death, Defiler of Just, etc.

[Amorais]

Question - is this across the board itemization change? Why? Because there's a ton of useless items that have been left in the game that are really awful prior to lvl 20. Or is this purely for lvl 28-30?

[arminius]

Can I ask why, if this is the case, the test server is always left open for such a short amount of time? Not trying to rant or anything, just wondering what the reasoning is behind it. Is it because you can't work on it and have it open at the same time?

I believe it is because historically top level guilds have used test servers to work out exploits in a cost free manner. The longer it is open, the longer the experiment period and the greater likelihood that something will be uncovered that they will then turn around to apply to prod

[Carpone]

Eliminating the 2[W] from Keen is a good move. It opens up many more viable weapon options, and more choices benefit the game.

The +W bonus from Keen has been adjusted to instead provide complete fortification bypass on a Natural 20.

You'd get a more positive reception from players if you took the time to explain the in-the-weeds mechanical details about monster fortification. It's one of the most misunderstood mechanics in DDO. Don't be afraid to show the math behind it.

[Cellestte-Sarlona]

I have tested a melee build in a low reaper quest and I must say that I am a bit disappointed!!!

Not about the nerf itself but because the monsters don't have their AC/HP/FORT lowered accordingly.

The significant problem is that now there isn't enough accuracy "to hit" to have relative dps values. What I mean is that sure, the mobs have lower saves, great, some lower stats - great but I cannot hit them anymore because I graze 2x more often...

Hopefully you can do something about it please , before this goes live.

Cheers

I had issues with this as well. I was only on R1 and I normally run R4. I was seeing significantly more misses than I normally do because reaper has not been touched by the balance.

[Seph1roth5]

Ya all the gear changes affects the non-minmaxers much more harshly.

My static group mostly runs elite/r1 at heroic, EE til 29, then start dipping into r1 for legendaries. Though the reason for that was because of the big power boost at 29, so not sure when/of we'll swap to reaper now.

Like other people have mentioned, this change makes past lives/reaper much more effective and widens the gap between newbies and vets by a lot.

Before, one of my first life characters could trap in EE with legendary gear, buffs, and maybe a skill boost. My main completionist could probably do it with just the gear. Now, my first lifer probably has no chance to find EE traps.

People have been showing all the math time and again in discord and best we've gotten is something along the lines of "we may look into it" in regards to traps.

People forget that while, skills from gear is only dropping 2, there's also exceptional, insightful, quality. Your ability scores are dropping by 7-8 alone, not to mention quality/insightful/exceptional abilities. Stats are being removed from epic destinies as well. So it's not just a matter of losing a couple points to skills.

Traps are probably the biggest need for skills, alongside intimidate. But there's also bluff/diplo that people sometimes use, and come up in quests like feywild.

I think the monster balance is coming along pretty well, I'd just like for devs to be aware that there are a lot of other ramifications to the gear standardization.

I asked a question about it in cordo's stream today and steel said something about the team looking into it at least.

[Arctigis]

Ya all the gear changes affects the non-minmaxers much more harshly.

My static group mostly runs elite/r1 at heroic, EE til 29, then start dipping into r1 for legendaries. Though the reason for that was because of the big power boost at 29, so not sure when/of we'll swap to reaper now.

Like other people have mentioned, this change makes past lives/reaper much more effective and widens the gap between newbies and vets by a lot.

Before, one of my first life characters could trap in EE with legendary gear, buffs, and maybe a skill boost. My main completionist could probably do it with just the gear. Now, my first lifer probably has no chance to find EE traps.

People have been showing all the math time and again in discord and best we've gotten is something along the lines of "we may look into it" in regards to traps.

People forget that while, skills from gear is only dropping 2, there's also exceptional, insightful, quality. Your ability scores are dropping by 7-8 alone, not to mention quality/insightful/exceptional abilities. Stats are being removed from epic destinies as well. So it's not just a matter of losing a couple points to skills.

Traps are probably the biggest need for skills, alongside intimidate. But there's also bluff/diplo that people sometimes use, and come up in quests like feywild.

I think the monster balance is coming along pretty well, I'd just like for devs to be aware that there are a lot of other ramifications to the gear standardization.

I asked a question about it in cordo's stream today and steel said something about the team looking into it at least.

If you have an artifact, insightful and quality stat @L29 then you will be losing -14 off that stat (going from 22/10/5 to 14/6/3) which is
-7 from ability score modifier. PRR, hamp, spell crit and spell power are also hit. The cummulative hit for casting is about
30 - 40% of effectiveness on live currently. On the plus side, DCs should be easier to hit in legendary difficulty.

Also, Doublestrike WAS 24% (Raid) or 23%. It's now down to 14% I believe though one can craft 15% at L30. This
makes the the 9% from EPLs much more significant.

[Fallout47]

I believe it is because historically top level guilds have used test servers to work out exploits in a cost free manner. The longer it is open, the longer the experiment period and the greater likelihood that something will be uncovered that they will then turn around to apply to prod

Ah, yes, blame their anti-player decisions on the elite guilds. You should just come out and call them all "cheaters and exploiters". You would have a job at SSG quicker than Lamania comes down.

[Tchtutax]

TL;DR / Balance Summary

I think you guys are disproportionately nerfing DPS casters more than other groups with regard to damage output capability.

Pre-Update 50 Meta Top Tier DPS:
1 melee is worth 2.2 top tier DPS casters
1 archer is worth 1.5 top tier DPS casters

Post-Update 50
1 melee is worth 2.5 top tier DPS casters
1 archer is worth 2 top tier DPS casters

CONCLUSION (See data further below if interested)
Dmg Casters: Lose 21% spell crit chance and 13% spell power (33% overall dmg loss)
Melee: Lose 20 dmg per hit (from deadly + stat adjustments), but gain from mob's fortification loss (Estimated net 10-20% damage loss)
Ranged: Lose 20 dmg per hit (from deadly + stat adjustments), but gain from mob's foritification loss (Estimated net 10-20% damage loss)

Solution Suggestions:
- Leave our spell power alone! You already took 25% of our damage with the loss of the ravenloft belts
- Give us access to more mana so we can stay in fights that look like they will be lasting longer
- Stop picking on damage casters! I don't want to swing a stick to do relevant damage, that's what sports games are for!

------------------------------------------------

Here's the data I used for this logic:

DMG CASTERS
Crit Chance Nerf:
Exceptional: -5%
Equipment: -10%
AutumnSet: -1%
BoundRingSet: -5%
Note: 21% less effective damage (assuming 1000 spell power and 100 spell crit dmg)

Spell Power Nerf:
Equipment: -77
Insightful: -37
Quality: -15
Total: -129 Spell Power
Note: 13% less effective damage (assuming 1000 spell power)


MELEE
Doublestrike nerf:
Enhancement: -8%
Insightful: -5%
Note: -9% dmg'ish at cap

Stats nerf
Equipment:-8
Insightful:-4
Quality:-2

Note: -7 hit/dmg

Deadly nerf:
Competence: -7
Insightful: -4
Quality: -2
Note: -13 dmg at cap


RANGED
Doubleshot nerf:
Enhancement: -5%
Insightful: -3%
Note: -5%'ish dmg at cap

Stats nerf
Equipment:-8
Insightful:-4
Quality:-2
Note: -7 hit/dmg

Deadly nerf:
Competence: -7
Insightful: -4
Quality: -2
Note: -13 dmg at cap

Other data to validate my conclusion:
I used to be able to kill R5 Gardak in 12s, and in u50 it takes me 16s over multiple attempts. This experiment lines up nicely with the decrease in damage I would have expected from the paper math.