U50 Preview 1: Endgame Itemization Adjustments

[Blaze-Of-Glory]

I am really liking this change for the reasons already expressed above, and because it helps me with build diversity - not being forced to min/max one stat in order to do reaper content can only be a good thing - I see me now being much more able to get other stats in the same ball park so that they might actually have some effect when trying to hit the numbers required for dcs for example

[Arctigis]

One function that the strongly powered level 29 items and artifacts served was to be a sort of leveler between newbies/casuals/moderate casuals and long timers/elites. You didn't need 100 past lives to be relatively effective, if you just had patience and a bit of planning and discipline and farmed out the Sharn and Feywild sets most appropriate for your build. Some additional farming of White Plume Mountain or maybe a raid of your choice gets your weapon, and regular questing gets your filigrees and sentient xp.

Play the game, get caught up enough, and keep playing with enjoyment and relative effectiveness.

Someone with 100 past lives and bajillion reaper xp would still be more powerful than you, but you were able to do ok enough not to be a complete embarrassment or be totally left behind.

Looks like all that is out the window, now. Everything is just a widget. Get to level x, get the level x widget which is 1 level more widgety than the level x-1 widget. Dream your dreamy dreams of getting to level x+1, with its sweet, sweet level x+1 widget.

So much this. Can't wait to get the L30 melee gloves etc. Just call them that.

[Merrillman]

This is tentatively how I feel too... but my long history of experience with this game doesn't make me especially confident.



This^. Powercreep was done to SELL content fast. Powercreep gets people to do astral shard rerolls and buy raid bypass timers to get their power faster. Powercreep gets people to buy new races and classes and hearts to respec to the new shiny. Powercreep is about money. Its about selling advantages.

I'm all for horizontal progression and reduced powercreep but there's a flipside to this^... all those people that paid (sometimes twice) for all that powercreep aren't going to be willing to pay for their powercreep removed, aren't going to enjoy having to earn (or buy) it back over another 10(+) levels, aren't going to be so eager to open their wallets again. Some people are going to feel... betrayed isn't quite the right word... but bitter may work.

We'll see how this pans out.

Again, I'm pro-less-powercreep but I'm afraid the decision to do this is poorly timed and should have happened years ago.

100% spot on. I am VERY bitter. I spent a LOT of money on this game. I am pretty sure I’m a game “whale” outspending I bet at least 80-90% of the player population if not more. I will NEVER trust this, will NEVER spend what I have before. Just isn’t going to happen. Not when they can destroy my time, energy and upend years of grinding on a whim. This new player stuff is nonsense. Take care of the LOYAL people who’ve been here spending and keeping this game running. Every sale, I buy. I started the withholding once the RL nerf happened. This? This is 1000x worse for casters. As far as I’m concerned I have ZERO interest in re-grinding only to get the same kind of power back at higher levels. It’s like the Groundhog Day movie doing that. GET ME OUT!! All I know is at this point I feel like I better be able to run reaper content with NO loss of power, effectiveness and NO increase in damage and deaths in suffering — or better — run it EASIER. it’s a ridiculous jump in difficulty from hard to elite for “1” level and MAYBE if they fixed that ridiculousness I’d feel better — after this or I’m probably going to be done. I also will NOT spend on u50 until I see what character destruction u51 has wrought. Everything I worked YEARS and PAID for? Pretty much gone across the board. My DPS needs to clear out monsters FASTER and EASIER, and not make it less fun and more of a grind. To me, this really ruins the game for me and really disrupts our group. If I’m gonna spend time grinding again? It’s probably going to be with a NEW game because the trust has been “nerfed” and I don’t want to do it just to gain back what I already had “stolen” from me. I do not believe for a minute (because trust has been severely damaged these last few “nerfs”) that the monsters will be scaled down to make it truly unchanged from before. I challenge the devs to have an open forum — live — where we can directly question you on video. I want to believe they’re not really killing us, and sometimes the written word comes across differently than how it’s intended, so I’d LIKE to give them the benefit of the doubt, but this is a really hard ask unless I can see proof I won’t die more often, have the game be many times harder, or I’m utterly floored by the caster trees that bring back the hard hits that I have worked so very hard for — and paid massive money to survive through — over the years. Prove me wrong is the standard now. I believe nothing until it’s proven. This has broken my trust in a way I didn’t even know a game could. This has turned something enjoyable into something frustrating, and games shouldn’t do that.
We'll see how this pans out is right.

[Carpone]

I recommend people test out Dire Charge on Lamannia. With a 115 DC, it has a much lower success rate compared to live even with the monster changes.

Also, the stat squish is not completely implemented. There are still raid items with +21 stats, +17 deadly, etc.

[redoubt]

This^. Powercreep was done to SELL content fast. Powercreep gets people to do astral shard rerolls and buy raid bypass timers to get their power faster. Powercreep gets people to buy new races and classes and hearts to respec to the new shiny. Powercreep is about money. Its about selling advantages.

I'm all for horizontal progression and reduced powercreep but there's a flipside to this^... all those people that paid (sometimes twice) for all that powercreep aren't going to be willing to pay for their powercreep removed, aren't going to enjoy having to earn (or buy) it back over another 10(+) levels, aren't going to be so eager to open their wallets again. Some people are going to feel... betrayed isn't quite the right word... but bitter may work.

Betrayed and bitter both apply to me.

I was talking to a long time in game friend last night. He reminded me how many nerfs I've gone through and that we have adapted and he is not wrong. But what I told him in response is that I am just tired....

I could be playing right now, but why? If SSG is just going to gut it on a "nuke it from orbit" scale, why bother? Why send good money and good time after bad???

[Kielbasa]

Any thoughts towards streamlining gearing out our characters? Do I really need enhancement, insightful, quality, exceptional, profane, festive, etc yada yada stat. Does sheltering really need to be prr, mrr, insightful, quality. Can we roll some of this stuff together to end up in the same place to improve the quality of life playing our hobby? If the plan is to make 20-30 flyover country like 1-20 content then make it so I do not need to use a third party website to figure out what gear to use on my characters in legendary content. If you're going to nerf us do it in a way that makes gaming more fun not more tedious. More time actually playing and less time micromanaging is good. For example depreciating s/s/s crafting and rolling it all into a less arduous system and freeing up bag and bank space awesome!!! Needing 4-5 pieces of gear just so I can land a stun in reaper 1 not so awesome.

[Chacka_DDO]

For clarity, monster Armor Class and Fort were absolutely adjusted, and not by a little bit, either - every monster in Legendary Tier 2 content lost 100% Fortification. That being said, an early look has shown us that we may need to go much further on adjusting Armor Class. And that's okay, we're perfectly able to make more tweaks and changes to make monsters at our endgame feel fair. This is why we're so grateful that people took the time to copy their endgame characters to go try it all out (or spent time playing content with new characters made on Lamannia). The more feedback we get, the better our changes are going to feel. Players have a huge range of stats and we want to make sure that everyone is having a good time, not just our super-engaged and talented min-maxxers who will overcome any challenge no matter what

A superb intention , my impression is that players who are active on the forum are often such min-maxers and they come to the forum to tell everyone DDO is too easy (for them) and the developers seemingly felt driven to make DDO even harder then.
And those min-maxers maybe don't even have the intention that DDO has to be harder, it is even possible they only want to tell everyone they are good players .
The next thing is that if you increase for example the monster saves so that no ability works anymore it feels, of course, harder at the first glance but actually it is only unfair and in addition, you lower the quality of DDO with that.
In the extreme, you give monsters fortification that high that no player can bypass it, saves that high that you land any ability only when the monster rolls a 1 and so forth and at the end, you have a DDO where nothing else works other than beating a monster down with your weapon and hoping the monster is dead before your hp (and heals) ran out.
The same basically for red-named boss monsters, even when I love DDO, honestly the boss monsters' fights are usually much less interesting than fighting a normal champ monster, it only needs more time with less fun.
And I know, to raise the difficulty level and increasing the quality of DDO at the same time is difficult but not impossible, a good example is the introduction of vengeance reapers in my opinion.
But making DDO harder by lowering the quality (making DDO poorer) is, in any case, the wrong way and it is good to see you now going to correct that.

It is not the only issue in U50 with items but I'm not happy especially with the implementation of Spell Resistance in DDO.
Of course, it is hard to tell for a player because I cannot read the minds of the developers (what a surprise ) but my impression is there is no fundamental conception in how in DDO spell resistance is implemented.
I don't want to go too much into the details (e.g. ridiculous high monster CR or that monsters get in reaper unfairly high spell penetration) but with this change, it gets even worse for everyone who tries to get a working SR score on his character.
A lot of items have their spell resistance nerfed in U50, e.g. the Epic Phiarlan Mirror Cloak is now down from 30 SR to 21 SR and you completely removed SR from the Infested Armor (and the epic version).
Of course, it would be better when SR gets a real overhaul in DDO but for now, it would be good if you at least not nerf the existing items even more.

And I'm not even sure if you actually know how SR works in DDO when I see the following fact:
In a nominal level, 6 quest drops an ML 6 item that has 9 SR (Shadowshimmer Cladding) but if you would use this armor in the same quest you fight casters with CR11 and this means that your Spell Resistance on you outfit would NEVER work.

I know you can have different opinions on how high the success rate on spell resistance should be, but if I see you implement an item in that way it tells me you either have no idea about SR in DDO or at least something has gone horribly wrong here even if you basically should know it better.
It is of course not the perfect solution but SR on items should at least scale with the ML of the item like Spell Resistance (spell).
Remember, usually, you acquire an item in a quest that is made for your current character level, and the items you get should be not only sufficient for this quest level, usually, you also play even higher quests. (in this case, you get an ML6 item but play an effective level 8 quest).
This leads by the way to another fundamental design flaw in DDO, the conception of ML items is fundamentally wrong in my opinion and demands correction but I also don't want to go into details here.

And just as a reminder if you not sure how SR works in DDO you need an SR Score of 20 plus the monster's CR for a 100% working Spell Resistance unless the attacking monster got additional spell penetration.
And this means for my example IF the Shadowshimmer Cladding would provide 18 SR (and not 9) this only means your SR works only with a 35% success rate in the quest where you get that item which is in my opinion obviously FAR from being overpowered.
And even if I don't want to go too much into the details in my opinion a player should have access to 100% working SR at least against non-boss monsters.
Remember even 100% working SR gives in DDO "only" similar immunities like a Warforged or undead character has and for that reason also 100% working SR is for sure not overpowered.

[Krelar]

I've seen lots of talk about adjusting monster stats as needed.

I hope they have not forgotten about other things in legendary content that will be effected by a dramatic stat decrease and need adjusted.

All traps spot/search/disable will need to be lowered.
All secret doors spot/search will need to be lowered.
All locks will need to have the DC lowered.
All skill checks and stat checks will need to be lowered. (Dialogue options mainly and a few stats used for pulling levers or runes but there may be other things I am not thinking of right now.)

[Dave2004uk]

The changes to the items post level 30, to me, are a nerf. Any time a depreciation occurs in items, it's a nerf, so lets call it what it is.

Obviously this is going to hurt casters more than warrior types. A drop in any of the main stats from Int to Wis to Char, is going to have a dramatic impact on the way that the character performs.

In my view, they should have done this from the start, 5 years or so back when Ravenloft was released. Instead, they let players get used to it for all this time. They should never have put +21 on an item as a main stat etc to begin with. Time and time again, in every game, developers do things like this and then, 5 years down the line, they nerf something because they think it's too powerful. Rather than bring lower tier items up to the same level as the Ravenloft items, instead, the age old answer of nerfing currently existing items down to a lower tier is applied. Typical dev logic.

I do like big numbers, like a lot of people. In DDO, to me, a big number is like 4K - 5K plus. If my dps drops to the point where I struggle to do even 2K dps with my most powerful spells and cleaves, then I will probably quit. I don't find that fun. Any time I find something fun, I tend to find that, 6 months down the line, it gets nerfed. Why is that? Same with that Warrior nerf on the Kensai Tree, was it, a few years back. When that nerf hit, I shelved my level 30 warrior for a while. At one point, I almost deleted him, because he just wasn't fun any more. Again, this is going to affect the performance of Healers on fellow players. Healing is going to suffer as well as casters DPS, spell penetration etc. How will this impact on the raids?

Again though, it should never have been allowed to get like that in the first place, only for the community to suffer for it 5 years down the line. It's not good having devs say "I know, lets put a main stat of 21 on an item" and then, 5 years down the line, once everyone's got used to it, having devs say "Actually, you know what? That's too powerful that is, let's nerf it to 13 and everything else while we're at it"

A nerf is a nerf no matter which way you look at it. What upsets me is when I see devs saying that it's easier to work with smaller numbers than it is with large numbers. It makes me feel like I am suffering, to make their lives easier. I don't think that is fair on the player. It insults me when people try to market a series of nerfs as a positive thing, like we should all be jumping on board the hype train for something that is going to have a detrimental impact on my character, a character which I have spent a year developing.

Where will I go from here? Will I quit? Probably not. I will continue to play the game. However, I am a 2nd edition AD&D player by heart. End game to me has always been level 20 from the perspective of playing 2nd edition AD&D. I will probably level to level 20 and then call it.

I doubt that I will do the level 30+ content. Besides which, I have 3 level 30's anyway, a Warrior, A melee Mage and a Warlock. I don't know how any of them will perform after this patch. They are almost fully geared between Ravenloft and Feywild gear. Truth be told, I enjoy playing heroic content more anyway.

My concern is will I be using Legendary gear after this, or will I be buying more gear off the auction house? It occurs to me that if Legendary gear and crafted gear is affected by these changes, will I still be able to buy better gear off the AH? For instance, will I still be able to buy a green amulet with Sheltering 54 on it?

These changes just leave a lot of questions to be asked. Like how will I improve my character to what he was before the changes? Will I even be able to get over 100 PRR AND MRR again? Will I be able to get over 50 Strength? Will I be able to get over 100 AC on my mage? Will I still be able to get 700 Spell Power and 50% crit? Probably not.

A nerf is a nerf no matter which way you look at it.

From here on out, I will probably stick solely to Heroic content from now on. That, in my point of view, has already had a detrimental impact on the game, because I might not even want to level up to be able to do end game content any more. That said, this iteration of AD&D has always been a game of two halves. You have the 1 - 20 levelling system, which is more in line with 2nd edition AD&D, and then you have the 20 - 30 levelling system with the ED trees. A game of two halves. I'm more at home with the first half, than I am with the 2nd half.

Lastly, I will say this; The developers should use what happened with "Marvel Heroes Omega" as a case study to what might happen here. Marvel Heroes Omega made 2 critical changes to the game, which were generally seen as nerfs by the community. Every time, they nerfed the players first, before balancing the mobs, which made the game unplayable. As a result, the game lost a lot of players, especially the veterans who spent a lot of money on costumes and hero boxes etc. Around a year after the changes, the nerfs, were made, the developers announced that they were turning off the servers because they had lost so many players, and also so much income.

All it took was 2 changes to the way that the game played and felt, for it to deter the player base from actively playing the game, to the point where the servers were turned off and the game was declared dead.

That would be my word of warning.

Like I say, from now on, I probably will continue to play the game, but only to level 20. I probably won't, as an old AD&D 2nd edition player, play content higher than that any more. Take away from that what you will.

[mr420247]

You completely removing LGS this week or saving that one for next week

It is the ONLY WAY TO BE SURE

[Kielbasa]

I've seen lots of talk about adjusting monster stats as needed.

I hope they have not forgotten about other things in legendary content that will be effected by a dramatic stat decrease and need adjusted.

All traps spot/search/disable will need to be lowered.
All secret doors spot/search will need to be lowered.
All locks will need to have the DC lowered.
All skill checks and stat checks will need to be lowered. (Dialogue options mainly and a few stats used for pulling levers or runes but there may be other things I am not thinking of right now.)

Can someone get the lever in Legendary Tempest Spine?? Oh good we have a barbarian wait the barbarian can't get the lever??? Oh thank god we have an artificer their dog can get it.

[Carpone]

The MRR change punishes light armor toons the most. Good luck getting 100 MRR now if you aren't a dagger using rogue with Deep Gnome and Warlock past lives. And it's only going to get worse in U51 when light armor toons will no longer have access to Martial Hymn (another 10 MRR).

[Havocthedemon]

Can someone get the lever in Legendary Tempest Spine?? Oh good we have a barbarian wait the barbarian can't get the lever??? Oh thank god we have an artificer their dog can get it.

This, a thousand times this. Imagine them forgetting this lol. We all know how silly it is to argue once they decide on something like this. All we can do is just hope it’s not as terrible as it seems.

Last 15 updates dev mindset: It’s Nerf…or nothin.

[Zezahk]

So, with this bringing named equipment on-par with cannith loot, perhaps the prospect of adding set bonuses and/or clickies to cannith equipment be explored?

[Torkzed]

This just seems like an attempt to lessen the gap between min-max players.

Not entirely clear from the context. Do you see this as a good thing or a bad thing?

I don't mind a gap between casual and full-up min-max...it gives players an incentive to chase loot. But I also don't have a problem with it being a "small-ish" gap.

If the gear differences are less severe then real gaps come from the differences in player skill and play style. This is okay.

[Arctigis]

Not entirely clear from the context. Do you see this as a good thing or a bad thing?

I don't mind a gap between casual and full-up min-max...it gives players an incentive to chase loot. But I also don't have a problem with it being a "small-ish" gap.

If the gear differences are less severe then real gaps come from the differences in player skill and play style. This is okay.

EPL, PL and Reaper are the same. Gap is bigger not smaller.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Players have a huge range of stats and we want to make sure that everyone is having a good time, not just our super-engaged and talented min-maxxers who will overcome any challenge no matter what

I like that.
No elitism anymore.

[xBunny]

Checked on Lammania. Only have alts at 30. Main is 26. Ability to use old gear or crafted items looks nice. But...seems spellcasters will suffer due to decreased Spell pool and crit change more than other classes. Exceptional Universe Spell lore dropped from 15% to 5%. Also profane, artifact, festive bonuses seems to have more influence now, since they are not nerfed. Also difference between heroic and epic set version seems to be insignificant. Gossamer Weave gives +4 spell DC's Legendary Gossamer Weave gives 5 spell DC's. Legendary SL gives +4 spell mastery - same as lvl 17 Gossamer Weave.
Still have mixed feeling.

[LittleLexi]

Im just gonna mention 1 player. A close to 50 player, who has a wife and kid, who works and goes on trips every 2nd week with shifts that can be up to 13-14 hours.
That same player spends time with his family and liked playing ddo with his guild, he has reached over 200 rap and has all past lifes on his main character by simply loging every day at the exact same time and playing 1-2 hours top each day.

It does not take extraordinary skill or power or godness to have a completed character and be one of the better players in ddo, it just takes time and discipline.

Even if this is true(which I'm skeptical of)— not everyone plays everyday for years. Not everyone plays the same way, even when they do play actively. And stats alone don't equal "a better DDO player". Trying to apply an anecdote to the playerbase at large is futile.

I wish the devs would chime in and release the figures of what the average amount of RXP and past lives are across the board to give people more perspective.

[Merrillman]

I never ever ever stated that I had 300 completed characters your should reread my post a bit more closely I said I have 300 cap characters over a 14+ year playing time you have to realize that I capped and recapped those characters as cap was increased not all in one go. I did get 30+ of those basically for free thanks to the great Wayfinder data debacle. Those are the only otto stones I have ever used since playing on Wayfinder was never in the cards until the data debacle.

Those 300 are all first life 1.9mil xp characters lol, I could run one off in a few hours today with the exp handed out today like candy and cap full epic destinies in a matter of hours, not days, not weeks, or months. Exp pots, buddy bonus, masters gift, guild buff, the lists of exp buffs goes on and on capping a character is not a challenge.

Factually I work around 50+ hours per week in a time and resource management posistion, have a family that I spend a considerable amount of time with, have many other real life obligations, and have played on a pretty regular schedule of about 4 - 8 hours per week for fourteen+ years I never play on Sundays that is family time. I don't watch TV, read books, go to movies, drink, or smoke. So an hour or so per day 6 days a week at most is some huge time invest I work with people that smoke 3 packs of cigarettes a day at 1 minute per cigarette that more than covers my play time for a week. I choose not to Reincarnate, not to chase utterly useless past lives as Hardcore has proven that 4 times in a row so far, I don't use Flavor of the Minute Builds, I don't need to watch youtube videos on how to play this game or exploit some weakness within a quest I actually learned the quests and how to play them long ago not needing to rely upon the power creep to carry me along and make me feel relevant. I have no need for exp pots tho I have them from rolls, expansions, freebie codes, have shards from selling and freebie codes as well. I have played MMO's more than long enough to see the writing on the walls with expansion comes contraction if you don't see you don't expect it. If you mean to say that putting in an hour or so a day at best 6x a week is some huge amount out time commitment to an online game I guess I'm guilty. Of course you should consider that I spend far more time at work per week, more time with family, friends, hobbies, and other activities clearly I am a have no life, have no wife, have no job, have no other commitments type of person at all. You should spend some time reading the T.O.S it is clear as can be the game can be changed at anytime for any reason or for no reason at all.

A whale, that makes me smile and laugh all at the same time I have another word for it altogether. I choose to be frugal and spend wisely. I'll settle for a few steps back for savings and proven reliability every single time. Pay 1k+ for a phone you must be kidding me it makes phone calls. I have been doing that before cell phones were available on rotary phones that had cords. Those items are invalidated and tossed aside like an old shoe that you wore for a week and decided well a newer model is out 'I gotta have it I gotta have it' that mentally applies the same here. You got it you had it now the new model is rolling out if you did not see it coming it must be your first experience with today's market.

Considering the stats jumped from level 20 +6/7 max, +1 exceptional, insightful +2 to level 20 +9 max, +1 exceptional, +4 insightful that is a 50% jump in base stat, no adjustment to exceptional, and a 200% jump in insightful jump. The speed at which power was handed out goes all the way back to MoTU and it has accelerated exponentially at an alarming rate til it got to where it is today. The fact is that all of the current content can be stomped out rolled over and crushed by the demi-god, monty haul characters that Turbine, SSG, and all the Devs allowed to push it in that direction. I have watched people complain when the no minimum level items with +10 stats, +50 hp, and all that nonsense were available to use at level one were complaining and threatening to leave over that 'nerf' with the same arguments many have posted, I spent real money, on shards to purchase these items or re-rolled chests countless times to get them. The groups that wants alts to be relevant again, by giving them access to shared past lives, shared reaper xp, never bother to realizing that they most important thing that can benefit any character in DDO is player experience and a willingness to learn from the mistakes that we all inevitably make. It is always easier to give something shiny to someone than take it away.

From the looks of Hardcore completions there is obviously no need for past lives all that testing has proven everything that can be acquired, accumulated, or purchased in DDO is not needed to complete the game.

If all those Hardcore players had the same I can't attitude as some here do they could never have done what they have done 4 times over now.



https://massivelyop.com/2021/01/25/n...er-complaints/

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.co...stop-the-nerfs

https://www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-warcraft/patch-druid

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/...active.275498/

https://massivelyop.com/2020/02/01/g...s-major-nerfs/

It seems pretty obvious that those games you mentioned and many others have never nerfed, made adjustments or rolled anything back a bit.



2 posts in 14 years and I already need a break from the forums.

How. Seriously. How?? I can play max 90 minutes 3x a week. Too much work, family. Maybe I misunderstood because I have no idea what else 300 capped means other than 300 characters. It was a little tongue in cheek, but the point was that I have spent REAL MONEY. And a LOT of it relative to anyone in my group. Why? Because I have friends who can game far more than I do. I actually love playing ddo with them. It provides great stress relief and especially during covid, a real pace to meet and shoot the breeze while we play. However, it seems “buying” is an issue. I don’t see why. The ONLY way I can be effective is if I purchase spell pots like nuts and res cakes because as a caster it has taken me YEARS to get ONE character epic completion (no other completions) and a mere 24 reaper points. I honestly (not kidding) have no clue how even over 14 years you could get 300 characters to anything other than just creating them. I sure couldn’t. Like I said, there are “DDO Gods” and then there are regular people who have to spend to keep up with a group. When money is involved, like it or not, there is a value assigned to that character. It’s just the way it is. I sunk money based on X items being available. Now X items become not the same items and that is simply taking value and providing less to us than the what was promised and shown than when we BOUGHT. We would maybe have made different decisions if we were told clearly (yeah, we are going to change this into a whole other game and feel, and we are going to, after enticing you to buy with X, take X back and give you the crappiest version you don’t really want, nor would have spent money on). Very creepy feel to that. How about make every player “balanced” by changing scaling??? Make all the best stuff accessible with raids scaled for a 4 person party vs 12 so that parties like mine can actually have access to the same gear? I cannot sit around for 2 hours waiting and hoping a raid group can form BEFORE I start!

Maybe we won’t agree, but this is too much of a change with nothing given in return that I can see.... yet.

We will see. I just don’t trust SSG any more at this point. It’s too bad.