U50 Preview 1: Endgame Itemization Adjustments

[Arctigis]

Firstly, this is a feedback forum. This is my feedback. Nobody needs
to agree or even disagree.

I really, really, really hate this idea. I feel cheated. We're talking
about high end gear from exclusively paid for expansions being cut in
half. Gear that I primarily purchased the expansions for and gear which
I've spent between 3k and 4k astral shards re-rolling for to 'catch up'
my main character to the latest meta after returning to the game. I didn't
add or ask for the shard re-roll mechanic. It was implemented by SSG. You
might say "more fool you" and you'd be 100% correct. But it's fools like
me who keep the lights on for DDO.

But it's just numbers right?

Yes, yes it is. Which is why the dev. arguments ring hollow. Players like
big numbers. I poured money into getting the gear from the new expansions
because I REALLY like big numbers. Now I feel like a victim of bait and
switch. Taking power away so you can sell it back to us in the 31 -> 40
stuff you obviously have planned. If numbers don't matter then a more palatable
solution would have been to make the gear curve through epics more linear
instead of the current almost exponential increase one gets through levels 28
and 29. Move RL to 28 and keep Sharn and FW at 29 for example. Bring up MotU,
SF, TH, GH, SH etc. 31 - 40 could then have a shallower progression gradient
as intended. Lines for 1 -> 20, 21 -> 30 and 31 -> 40 etc. could be
standardised as desired. Taking 12 points off main stat, not to mention the
other 'balance' changes like Keen, just feels bad. Cannith crafting being
almost as good as Raid loot? come on...

The stated goal makes no sense.

A racial completionist starts level 1 with +5 charisma. Add completionist
for another +2 at L3. Is +7 a larger percentage of 25 or 41? (I'm assuming
Profane and Festive are the same). Exactly. The gap between multi-lifers
and first lifers/newbies is BIGGER with this proposal, not smaller (remember
that the new EDs have no +stat tiers). There are many more examples: PRR, MMR
and Doublestrike, +hit, +dam, HP, AC - these are all MORE valuable now and
will be even more so when it directly translates into Destiny Points.
What you don't seem to realize, which is almost unbelievable, is that gear was
an equalizer.

I know this post sounds salty. It is. I've just calculated that I've spent
$1466 (~ £1050) on this game, just on points, since 1st March 2021. There is
also the subscription on two accounts. I'm sure there are people who have
spent way more but $350/month on a video game is still a signficant outlay.
I won't be spending a penny more. My only regret is I subbed for six months
instead of my usual rolling monthly. I didn't mind U51, I could see the
potential, but U50 sucks. U50 feels like a big FU to players who've been
keeping you afloat for the past few years.

To quote someone else, I hope you realize what you are doing here.

[Rykka]

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

As always, we look forward to your feedback!

You already have a system that smoothly scales gear in heroic and up to about lvl26, after which you guys just kinda went nuts with bonuses.

If you follow your own progression that is currently used for quest loot up to ML23 and just keep extending that for another 30 levels you won't reach the current inflated bonuses that you are responsible for.

If you also use those adjusted values for RAIDs that are base ML32 and 34 you will wind up with raid loot that is appropriate for the difficulty compared to soloable quest content.

If you want to keep ML29 Artifacts with slightly higher bunuses (equivalent to ML30 gear) sure, whynot they are exclusive. Tho they are much easier to aquire when compared to raid loot, even considering the rune system.

I would suggest that whatever you do, design for reaching 60th or 100th level. Whoever is making you raise the game's level cap isn't gonna stop at 40.

[Wildginger]

This sort of observation is extremely concerning to me.

Devs, I'm currently supportive of your initiative here, but you MUST ensure ALL mob and environmental aspects are scaled back fully and appropriately as far as possible. I hope folks will be patient during transition, where not everything is likely to work out fully, as you risk losing players if not.

Rebalancing is fine, it's good in fact. What isn't fine is destroying whole classes effectiveness (rogues as cited above, for example) in the process. What you are doing here is fundamentally altering a fairly complex ecosystem, and that must be done with great care and precision. If not, you will simply tick off too many customers.

Leaving things like mob AC and fort untouched, for example, when player side relevant stats are being nerfed, is not acceptable - that's not a difficult relationship to understand and recognise it so obviously needs addressing. I'm worried you don't appear to be addressing something as obvious as this?

Posts like that above really make me concerned this might be a half-arsed initial approach - let's be absolutely clear here - THAT WILL NOT DO!

Please don't underestimate the critical necessity to assure players effectiveness is broadly maintained. If erring, err on the side of the players benefit. Even consider some form of safety margin in your thinking to assure this. It would in general be preferable to have players feel they have come out ahead through this process. Whilst I know that is not ideal, it is still preferable to the corollary. Many players will feel cheated by the game if you get the balance wrong and they end up even moderately disenfranchised relative-power-wise.

If you don't quite get things right and overshoot and need to dial mob power back up again at some point, not great but that will be by far preferable to being in a situation where you need to dial player power back up, for the simple reason that the mobs can't choose to leave the game.

It's a good and brave initiative, but very risky - get this wrong and it's game over for many. I really, really, hope you understand just how high the stakes are here and how careful you need to be.

My strongest advice, FWIW, is to play this transition safe: Nerf players, but nerf mobs/the environment more. Doing the reverse risks disaster.

I do not post much. I have been playing since the beginning.
This point is awesome and lays out all the facts.
I want to buy Hawkwier a drink.

[Arctigis]

Absolutely fantastic. This will open up grouping across level 20-30 players since 29 gearing won't be so much of a cliff anymore.

Can't tell if you're invoking Poe's Law or not? you think the game can handle further splitting
the population over another 10 (or more) levels?

[Iriale]

This is beyond frivolous. If you want a refund— please make sure they take away any favor, xp, gear, and expansion goodies you got along the way. That doesn't even take into account the quests and wilderness zones you've been reveling in; including with the aforementioned over-tuned items.

To call this illegal shows gross misunderstanding of how video games work(and have worked for eons). Clearly you didn't read, nor understand the ToS. You don't own this content, the way you seem to believe. Nor the inalienable freedom to have it remain as you purchased it indefinitely. Developers have the right to make adjustments(as they should do).

---------

I think these are positive changes and overdue— provided that they are being done for the right reasons, and as long as they will be applied consistently. Having gear closer in power level should hopefully allow for newer gear to be more flavorful, as well offer up much more variety. Or even specialization— in some cases.

It is legal, yes, but a risky move. The companies in these MMOs own all the content, but their business only works as long as they maintain the trust of their customers. And people do not like to have what they have obtained taken away from them. Thus, when their customers distrust that they can maintain stability in the things they have obtained, they stop paying. And everything sinks.

Many people seem to think that powercreep has been the problem of the players, and nothing is further from that. When devs announced the special LGS bonus to spellpower and later RL belts, many of us asked if they were sure what they were going to do. They were. When the devs sharply increased the stats of the legendary gear, we again asked if it was wise to do something. For devs, it was (definitely short-term money). When the devs made the changes to the magister's DC, we asked them if they knew what they were doing. The devs replied that they knew perfectly well. And now it turns out that all that was a mistake and they remove it from the players.

So the blame for all of this is on the devs. You can say: oh, but they have realized their mistake and are fixing it. Error. Because every time they take things away from the players instead of doing things right the first time, they pay a cost. The cost of losing their customers' trust. It is naive to think that this is not going to cost them a financial bill.

All for not doing things well... and for an increase in the level cap that most of their clients do not want. For lack of imagination to create an end game with lateral advancement instead of vertical. All of this is to make it easier to create their dungeons, the equipment and the numbers that the level cap increase needs.

SSG has great myopia – this company sees a lot at a microscopic distance, but is unable to see a great wyrm from a meter away lol.

[LurkingVeteran]

When you grind for or buy power in an online video game, you are basically renting it for a limited amount of time. All MMOs, including DDO, rely on a steady progression of power. Here they just rescaled the numbers, so the relative power of the gear is actually intact, the numbers just changed. In a few updates it will go obsolete though, that's how it has always worked. U50 changes nothing in this regard.

What I am a bit concerned about, also as raised by some others in this thread, is that the item stat squeeze will nerf some players disproportionally.

• Casters seem to lose more due to more reliance on spell power and crit% from items than melee are on MP and double strike%. Especially for Warlocks, who can't use Metas and had the highest crit mult.
• First lifers also seem to lose more because they were entirely reliant on items while past lives and reaper bonuses seem to be untouched. It used to be that a first lifer could get some gear and RP at cap and fairly quickly be competitive without the past life grind. This balance might have shifted after U50 and SSG should take a second look at this.
• I also suspect monks will lose a small bit of relative power - Monks are very reliant on primary stat as they get a higher multiplier while weapon damage and crit profile are bad (handwraps / staff). There is now also a dex trance, so standard wis-trance monks lost that advantage vs other melee. On the other end you have sneak attack builds like Rogue and Tempest, because sneak attack, like weapon damage (I think?) wasn't touched. OTOH Rogues will have to sacrifice something for those 13 AP required for the dex trance.

[cru121]

Not that it matters, but I agree with the premise.
But there's at least one more thing that greatly separates melee/ranged damage output before 28-29 and after: the extra +2/+3/+4/+6 in the [W]. This makes some ML28 weapons dramatically less useful than the ML29 counterpart. Since you guys are trying to smoothen the progression curve, perhaps a predictable system for the number of [W]s and [W+x] size should be devised and implemented.

[donblas]

Wow, most unexpected - an MMO doing something about the bane of power creep.

I applaud your efforts and hope they go well.

I'm really looking forward to U50/51!

[Merrillman]

As a player for more than 14 years I finally found a thread worth commenting on.

I can't wait for the next two upcoming updates and hope for more full blown balancing in the future. Make the game hard and challenging again like it used to be before when max stats were +7 after collecting S/S/S for Epic Items that dropped rarely and were actually earned by raiding, without bypass timers, exploits galore, chest reroll, elixirs of discovery, and countless other ways to boost your loot drop rates.

The old timers ( myself and many others )were running Epic quests at level 20 without all the tomes, gear, epic destinies, and other power creep available to everyone today and you need epic destinies to complete the same quests that had been done for years without all of those benefits that have been added. That just saddens me to no end. DDO is easier than ever its about time it gets a little harder again. There are plenty of easy MMORPG out there to play.

With 8 servers and over 300 cap characters covering most every class, race, and configuration imaginable this update will cause me to re-engage DDO. No I don't reincarnate I delete and start my characters over. No past lives required. I have a few with epic past lives but that is it and I have no fear of stepping into any quest on any difficultly at this time using any class. The biggest obstacle I have seen most players old and new face is I can't.

As far as the rest of the end game raiding scene currently it has been completed, conquered, and destroyed at an alarming rate. Any new content released without the upcoming adjustments will simply be ensure that the new content is only invalidated more quickly than ever before by the same players and more over and over again.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/forumdisp...4-Achievements -- just take a look at the posted achievements this clearly does not cover all the completions that have been done.

I am pretty sure there was a list of all the Legendary Raids completed on R10 but no luck finding it but suffice it to say I am pretty sure they have all been conquered some have even been done solo.

No one likes change but this change I am fully behind and it has been a long time coming. It's strange to me how many people have called for an end to the power creep on the forums and when SSG finds the courage to do so some of those same people pull out the torches and pitchforks and become an unruly mob ready to criticize instead of critique.

There will undoubtedly be problems and corrections and adjustments along the way but that is always the case when something that has needed to be done for a long time is done.

Many thanks to the Dev Team for finding the courage to step up and get it done.

So... you do not have a job, have no family, children or even a hamster to care for with that kind of free time, can literally spend endless hours that 99.9%of people on earth cannot on ddo, and have THREE HUNDRED capped characters? Sorry, but I can’t take that seriously. OF COURSE it’s easy.. FOR YOU. Nobody w/a normal schedule could possibly keep up with someone with your kind of free time and singular focus. The rest of us non ddo gods have a significantly harder time just the way things are. I don’t have raidgear. Despite playing for years I have only ONE character with epic completion and NO characters w completionist in any other capacity. I cant spend hours poring over strimtom or voodoo videos & can barely get the time to watch one livestream a month. Yet I still spend on vip and astral shards and ddop. Ottos & tensers and wishes just to attempt basic viability in endgame. We need BETTER stats & gear, not things we paid for and spent our limited hours of fun grinding away at earning getting destroyed on a dev whim. NO REGULAR PERSON HAS YOUR KIND OF TIME. This is not “good for the game.” Its a betrayal of trust, a destruction of time and effort spent over years and years for many of us to get the maybe one or two characters somewhat viable so that you’re not blowing res cakes every 5 minutes. Personally this smacks of the game being in big Trouble from the outside. “New players??” WHAT NEW PLAYERS? Publish a list (just the number of new actual accounts with unique credit cards on file, no names) every month. I don’t buy some massive influx of new people for a 15 year old game. I’d be astonished if this were not a nonsense excuse to simply money grab for survival. I’d rather they just tell us there are issues and we need more money or more players and so we are making it a monthly service fee type and ftp is only like a 3-6 month trial. I’d be like, ok, if we want this game we need to step up and pay. Honesty would be so much better and I would at least understand why I’m getting pushed out of this community into other games that won’t take what I earned and (seemingly) make it worthless. We will see, but for me the caster trees better blow me away or VIP is getting cxld, and any normal spend I do is pretty permanently put on hold. I’m probably one of the “whales” of this game, but after this I can’t justify it — at least not with what I have seen. I know others in my group feel very betrayed by this change. Unless the game is not nerfed by this when all is said and done I know a lot of people will be moving on to other games.once you destroy the game loyalty it’s very hard to regain it. ESO & Neverwinter just don’t treat you like this.

[Kebtid]

So... you do not have a job, have no family, children or even a hamster to care for with that kind of free time, can literally spend endless hours that 99.9%of people on earth cannot on ddo, and have THREE HUNDRED capped characters? Sorry, but I can’t take that seriously. OF COURSE it’s easy.. FOR YOU. Nobody w/a normal schedule could possibly keep up with someone with your kind of free time and singular focus. The rest of us non ddo gods have a significantly harder time just the way things are. I don’t have raidgear. Despite playing for years I have only ONE character with epic completion and NO characters w completionist in any other capacity. I cant spend hours poring over strimtom or voodoo videos & can barely get the time to watch one livestream a month. Yet I still spend on vip and astral shards and ddop. Ottos & tensers and wishes just to attempt basic viability in endgame. We need BETTER stats & gear, not things we paid for and spent our limited hours of fun grinding away at earning getting destroyed on a dev whim. NO REGULAR PERSON HAS YOUR KIND OF TIME. This is not “good for the game.” Its a betrayal of trust, a destruction of time and effort spent over years and years for many of us to get the maybe one or two characters somewhat viable so that you’re not blowing res cakes every 5 minutes. Personally this smacks of the game being in big Trouble from the outside. “New players??” WHAT NEW PLAYERS? Publish a list (just the number of new actual accounts with unique credit cards on file, no names) every month. I don’t buy some massive influx of new people for a 15 year old game. I’d be astonished if this were not a nonsense excuse to simply money grab for survival. I’d rather they just tell us there are issues and we need more money or more players and so we are making it a monthly service fee type and ftp is only like a 3-6 month trial. I’d be like, ok, if we want this game we need to step up and pay. Honesty would be so much better and I would at least understand why I’m getting pushed out of this community into other games that won’t take what I earned and (seemingly) make it worthless. We will see, but for me the caster trees better blow me away or VIP is getting cxld, and any normal spend I do is pretty permanently put on hold. I’m probably one of the “whales” of this game, but after this I can’t justify it — at least not with what I have seen. I know others in my group feel very betrayed by this change. Unless the game is not nerfed by this when all is said and done I know a lot of people will be moving on to other games.once you destroy the game loyalty it’s very hard to regain it. ESO & Neverwinter just don’t treat you like this.

Im just gonna mention 1 player. A close to 50 player, who has a wife and kid, who works and goes on trips every 2nd week with shifts that can be up to 13-14 hours.
That same player spends time with his family and liked playing ddo with his guild, he has reached over 200 rap and has all past lifes on his main character by simply loging every day at the exact same time and playing 1-2 hours top each day.

It does not take extraordinary skill or power or godness to have a completed character and be one of the better players in ddo, it just takes time and discipline.

[Strider1963]

[QUOTE=Aelonwy;6441343]On the one hand, who didn't see this coming? I mean we already guessed when the level cap increased our cannith crafted items over level 30 would be retroactively changed as was done to previous cannith crafting items when the level cap raised above 20. It is not surprising really that the same would be done to named items which were meant for our current cap but greatly exceeded the current cap scaling.

And on that same hand, as long as monster scaling is truly balanced for the significant reduction in power... eh *shrugs* I'm not particularly bothered.

However, on the other hand, many players buy the cap expansions for access to loot that gives them an advantage. Retroactively removing that advantage (as was done to RL belts) puts a bad taste in the mouth. This WILL BE a massive bitter pill for many to swallow. You should be forewarned its going to erode player and purchasing trust. If people can't trust that what they are purchasing is going to be kept in good faith... there will be a reduction in sales.

-----------------------

This^^^ Trust. Its like I paid money for that nice shiny new Mercedes and when I took it back to the dealer for an oil change they gave me back a used Chevy and said its ok, everyones driving a used Chevy now :-)

[SpardaX]

I'm torn on this one.

I'm a huge fan of reducing power creep, particularly in items where it is completely out of control

On the other hand this will go a long way into making the many past lives viable again and it will once again put DDO into a vested players only situation.

I think the change alongside the level cap increase will probably kill the game. Not enough new players buying in to a horrific grind and not enough old players staying the course = declining pop and likely sunset of the game at some point sooner than we'd all like.

Surely im not the only one who sees that this basically has to happen before a level cap increase can be done? You say these two changes at the same time will kill the game, but I think doing a level cap increase without this change would be a disaster.

[Edwinge]

I noticed that the legendary weapons are still +15 enhancement bonus. Looking at current cannith crafting scaling, a crafted weapon is +12 at level 30. Is this intended? or did the enhancement bonuses just not get adjusted down along with other stats yet?

Similarly, cannith crafted weapon dice multiplier is 4W at level 30 yet legendary weapons are still 5W base. Intended?

Also, are you planning to keep the extra + damage in the base damage of legendary level weapons? I'm just curious how you guys are intending the scaling of base weapon damage to work in the new paradigm.

[Taraborn]

I noticed that the legendary weapons are still +15 enhancement bonus. Looking at current cannith crafting scaling, a crafted weapon is +12 at level 30. Is this intended? or did the enhancement bonuses just not get adjusted down along with other stats yet?

Similarly, cannith crafted weapon dice multiplier is 4W at level 30 yet legendary weapons are still 5W base. Intended?

Also, are you planning to keep the extra + damage in the base damage of legendary level weapons? I'm just curious how you guys are intending the scaling of base weapon damage to work in the new paradigm.

The named weapons have never followed crafted in enhancement bonus and number of W, even before Legendary content. The ESOS has 2.5 W and a +10 enhancement, which at level 20 should be 2 W and +6 if it followed Cannith Crafted.

[MacDubh]

I'm curious why the players are getting nerfed this hard, especially in relation to the damage the monsters are putting out. I went into G & B on Lam on a reaper difficulty I'm very familiar and comfortable with and noticed I'm taking more damage than I ever did before. Of course it was because my prr/mrr got nerfed, but wow those monsters hits sure weren't. Same with the reaper healing debuff - it is oh so present in all it's glory, but it was even worse since my hamp got nerfed as well.

So what I'm taking from this is:
U50 - nerf
U51 - nerf
U whatever - we might get back some of what is being taken.

Please rethink this and go back to the drawing board.

Take ur fecking U50 and U51 and make a new game called DDO1.z

Offer it an alternate to DDO.

After 1 month do the numbers and see which is more popular. Drop the other one.

FFS are you living in a dreamworld? This is just gonna upset everyone in one way or another. The ones who stick with it will need animated tumbleweed to play with.

[Kelledren]

Surely im not the only one who sees that this basically has to happen before a level cap increase can be done? You say these two changes at the same time will kill the game, but I think doing a level cap increase without this change would be a disaster.

Yes this had to be done, and the trip from 30-40 will basically get us back to where we are now. The problem the Devs will have is the whack a mole balance game in the mean time.

The thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the reaper trees. Scaling everything back makes having those RPs a much more significant boost in power. I’m guessing the solution there will be to gate it behind 40 levels to spread it out. They may just scale it back now. Hopefully when they scale back mobs they will not be taking a character having 150 RP into that equation as the measuring stick.

With everything changing at once it will be impossible to judge how balanced it will be until you play the game for a month after all the changes. Then major feedback discussions should be had.

[GramercyRiff]

Yeah you gotta do something more for Keen. Having it contribute to fort bypass is a good idea, but it needs to be more powerful. Having it essentially crit on a 20 is a good start. Crits are fun, in case you don't actually play the game. It's one of the best feelings when playing a melee.

[KoobTheProud]

It is legal, yes, but a risky move. The companies in these MMOs own all the content, but their business only works as long as they maintain the trust of their customers. And people do not like to have what they have obtained taken away from them. Thus, when their customers distrust that they can maintain stability in the things they have obtained, they stop paying. And everything sinks.

Many people seem to think that powercreep has been the problem of the players, and nothing is further from that. When devs announced the special LGS bonus to spellpower and later RL belts, many of us asked if they were sure what they were going to do. They were. When the devs sharply increased the stats of the legendary gear, we again asked if it was wise to do something. For devs, it was (definitely short-term money). When the devs made the changes to the magister's DC, we asked them if they knew what they were doing. The devs replied that they knew perfectly well. And now it turns out that all that was a mistake and they remove it from the players.

So the blame for all of this is on the devs. You can say: oh, but they have realized their mistake and are fixing it. Error. Because every time they take things away from the players instead of doing things right the first time, they pay a cost. The cost of losing their customers' trust. It is naive to think that this is not going to cost them a financial bill.

All for not doing things well... and for an increase in the level cap that most of their clients do not want. For lack of imagination to create an end game with lateral advancement instead of vertical. All of this is to make it easier to create their dungeons, the equipment and the numbers that the level cap increase needs.

SSG has great myopia – this company sees a lot at a microscopic distance, but is unable to see a great wyrm from a meter away lol.

I couldn't have said it better myself. DDO is like a truck being driven down a dark highway at high speed late at night. Maybe there is no problem and the game won't hit anything but past roadways have been littered with the wrecks of trucks driving at high speed late at night.

[zooble]

Going to add this could kill off farming for your endgame items. Some levels of power creep does have a place.

Take bow for example. Void was taken for the BIS arrows but not used as your actual bow (at least not in the time periods I've been playing). Chaosbow was hence THE go-to raid bow. With Dryad, Aerania was the upgrade everyone wanted to farm for. Now depending on what they do with keen, unless something really enticing happens, I see everyone going back to Chaosbow since no1 was running Aerania for the lightning proc. Twisted Willow would be taken out of contention with keen changes. So while the choice seemingly increases, it's kinda doesn't.

Me personally, well it would mean I don't have to farm Aerania outside of any collection reasons - I don't need to run the newest raid. What happens when another raid is released? Will it be another weapon people don't need to farm for? Let's not forget, Elasticity has been made into a must have (no different to keen really), Ranged Alacrity not so much, so you only really have 2 effects of choice to offer, 3 at best.

Expansion specific buffs could work. e.g. Aerania could have bonuses when running Feywild content (bonus vs fey creatures) using a separate "item power allowance"


PS: Vuln items seem like the next biggest "Keen".

[Jerevth]

If it's balanced I'm for ripping the band-aid off and getting this behind us. We have been griping about power creep for some time, but no one wants to accept the solution to fix it.
Balance being player vs monster difficulty.

However I think the players who got their strikes (eSoS grind) should keep their legacy weapons; this should be feasible since the item has to be plugged into the Stone of Change to upgrade to the new version.
The weapons found going forward should fall under the proposed system. Legacy gear should be better, but can't advance further. No one will find their like, such is the game. It's gated by the upgrade requirements for the legendary versions. Grossly overpowered? Maybe for their level +5, but even heroes need heroes, and the end game will go beyond what they have, eventually, as the level cap metastasizes.

Essentially, if you earned it, you keep it.
I don't have anything that would be considered legacy- I never found that darn eSoS shard.