U50 Preview 1: Endgame Itemization Adjustments

[nobodynobody1426]

Sure, I totally get that. I think it would be helpful if SSG could state where they see things ending
up for U50 and U51. Then how you actually get there is an implementation detail. For instance, if you
could commit to the same relative dps to mob health and mob dps to effective healing, that would
put a lot of players minds at rest I would think.

The issue is the u50 nerfs disproportionately effect different damage styles. Optimized melee DPS got a 20-25% nerf, optimized ranged DPS got 18-23%, optimized caster DPS took a whopping 30-40% hit. These are raw damage values assuming you always hit and no fortification, so it's actually much worse in practice. DPS casters really are in a "just reroll something else" place after u50 because pre-u50 caster damage was balanced around spell power / spell crit due to every spell hitting MCL almost instantly at 20. Post-u50 is the same, every high end spell is already at MCL so the only place to draw power is spell power / spell crit and the combined nerf is ridiculously large.

This gives them three "options", adjust the monster HP at cap by 30-40% making it neutral for casters but a very large buff for melee / ranged DPS, which makes DPS casters obsolete. Adjust monster HP by 20-25% making it neutral for melee / ranged DPS but a huge loss for DPS casters thus making them obsolete. Adjust the HP by less then 25% making it a nerf to melee / ranged DPS and an even bigger nerf to DPS casters making them obsolete. Remember this is at cap not leveling through heroic Sharn, at cap DPS casters are already at a loss for damage but they can hit multiple stuff so it kinda balances out. That's history after u50.

[elvesunited]

The issue is the u50 nerfs disproportionately effect different damage styles. Optimized melee DPS got a 20-25% nerf, optimized ranged DPS got 18-23%, optimized caster DPS took a whopping 30-40% hit. These are raw damage values assuming you always hit and no fortification, so it's actually much worse in practice. DPS casters really are in a "just reroll something else" place after u50 because pre-u50 caster damage was balanced around spell power / spell crit due to every spell hitting MCL almost instantly at 20. Post-u50 is the same, every high end spell is already at MCL so the only place to draw power is spell power / spell crit and the combined nerf is ridiculously large.

This gives them three "options", adjust the monster HP at cap by 30-40% making it neutral for casters but a very large buff for melee / ranged DPS, which makes DPS casters obsolete. Adjust monster HP by 20-25% making it neutral for melee / ranged DPS but a huge loss for DPS casters thus making them obsolete. Adjust the HP by less then 25% making it a nerf to melee / ranged DPS and an even bigger nerf to DPS casters making them obsolete. Remember this is at cap not leveling through heroic Sharn, at cap DPS casters are already at a loss for damage but they can hit multiple stuff so it kinda balances out. That's history after u50.

What if the devs decrease the MRR of enemies at cap by a certain percent to make up for the disparity? Granted many enemies don't have PRR or MRR but as I understand it having a negative MRR does increase magical damage.

[Singular]

It was +3 quality bonus on Lammania both lvl 28 and 29 gear.

Why did I bother farming loot out, first in RL, then in Fey??? Oh well.

[rabidfox]

This gives them three "options", adjust the monster HP at cap by 30-40% making it neutral for casters but a very large buff for melee / ranged DPS, which makes DPS casters obsolete. Adjust monster HP by 20-25% making it neutral for melee / ranged DPS but a huge loss for DPS casters thus making them obsolete. Adjust the HP by less then 25% making it a nerf to melee / ranged DPS and an even bigger nerf to DPS casters making them obsolete. Remember this is at cap not leveling through heroic Sharn, at cap DPS casters are already at a loss for damage but they can hit multiple stuff so it kinda balances out. That's history after u50.

What if the devs decrease the MRR of enemies at cap by a certain percent to make up for the disparity? Granted many enemies don't have PRR or MRR but as I understand it having a negative MRR does increase magical damage.

Increasing both caster level & max caster levels via the revamped EDs would be one way to fix things. +X levels (whatever is needed to balancing everything out) to spells would bump damage back up and it would also move outgoing heals back towards where they are on live (as heals are also losing spell power/crit).

[Arctigis]

The issue is the u50 nerfs disproportionately effect different damage styles. Optimized melee DPS got a 20-25% nerf, optimized ranged DPS got 18-23%, optimized caster DPS took a whopping 30-40% hit. These are raw damage values assuming you always hit and no fortification, so it's actually much worse in practice. DPS casters really are in a "just reroll something else" place after u50 because pre-u50 caster damage was balanced around spell power / spell crit due to every spell hitting MCL almost instantly at 20. Post-u50 is the same, every high end spell is already at MCL so the only place to draw power is spell power / spell crit and the combined nerf is ridiculously large.

This gives them three "options", adjust the monster HP at cap by 30-40% making it neutral for casters but a very large buff for melee / ranged DPS, which makes DPS casters obsolete. Adjust monster HP by 20-25% making it neutral for melee / ranged DPS but a huge loss for DPS casters thus making them obsolete. Adjust the HP by less then 25% making it a nerf to melee / ranged DPS and an even bigger nerf to DPS casters making them obsolete. Remember this is at cap not leveling through heroic Sharn, at cap DPS casters are already at a loss for damage but they can hit multiple stuff so it kinda balances out. That's history after u50.

Yes, I understand that. I've posted elsewhere that I think this is impossible to achieve. It not only
disproportionately affects spellpower based casters but the influence of reaper points and PLs is
now more significant. So even if they managed to perfectly balance the eq. changes between
melee, healers and nukers they wouldn't be able to achieve parity with the current game.

[zooble]

Increasing both caster level & max caster levels via the revamped EDs would be one way to fix things. +X levels (whatever is needed to balancing everything out) to spells would bump damage back up and it would also move outgoing heals back towards where they are on live (as heals are also losing spell power/crit).

Not going to happen.

Current Draconic has 3 caster levels and 3 max in enhancements. They haven't said ED's won't have caster levels but that would mean new Draconic would need 4+ to even begin making up some of the damage lost. Their goal as stated is to make all caster EDs competitive and not pile into Draconic, which giving a ton of caster levels in Draconic wouldn't help unless it was in a token low tier that everyone could take, but that would just make it a must pick.

[xBunny]

The very first post in this thread, from SSG, says that it will.

Sure. But in Lamannia preview quality stats where the same +3 for level 28 and 29.

[xBunny]

Why did I bother farming loot out, first in RL, then in Fey??? Oh well.

Well, different item for different slots. Different set bonuses. Also RL 5 set bonus is now little bit different at 29. 30PRR instead of 20PRR, and some other changes I don't recall. Sharn 3 items sets still seems to be better than RL 3 items set.

[Arctigis]

Sure. But in Lamannia preview quality stats where the same +3 for level 28 and 29.

It wasn't clear that you were only talking about quality. Main stat is +1 in Sharn/Fey/RL over Slavers (+2 if you count artifacts) so
technically it will outperform slavers. Possibly not enough to offset the extra flexibility that Slavers crafting gives.

[nobodynobody1426]

What if the devs decrease the MRR of enemies at cap by a certain percent to make up for the disparity? Granted many enemies don't have PRR or MRR but as I understand it having a negative MRR does increase magical damage.

It would have to be a pretty hefty amount, -15~20 MRR on all monsters above quest level 26 but especially after level 29 quests. I feel the easier solution would be to adjust the item spell power formula while leaving the spell lore nerfs in place. Would like them pull spell damage up without effecting anything else.

Not going to happen.

Current Draconic has 3 caster levels and 3 max in enhancements. They haven't said ED's won't have caster levels but that would mean new Draconic would need 4+ to even begin making up some of the damage lost. Their goal as stated is to make all caster EDs competitive and not pile into Draconic, which giving a ton of caster levels in Draconic wouldn't help unless it was in a token low tier that everyone could take, but that would just make it a must pick.

They moved the +Caster Level from ED cores to epic levels, we get +1 CL every 2 epic levels. The far bigger issue is the high level spells are usually hard capped around level 20 with a few having MCL of 25. So when you hit epics, the spell at level 20 has the same base power as at level 30 causing casters to rely almost entirely on Spell Power and Spell Crit for damage. They really should raise the MCL of level 7-9 spells to 25-30 or add some +MCL bonus inside of epic levels themselves.

[rabidfox]

They moved the +Caster Level from ED cores to epic levels, we get +1 CL every 2 epic levels. The far bigger issue is the high level spells are usually hard capped around level 20 with a few having MCL of 25. So when you hit epics, the spell at level 20 has the same base power as at level 30 causing casters to rely almost entirely on Spell Power and Spell Crit for damage. They really should raise the MCL of level 7-9 spells to 25-30 or add some +MCL bonus inside of epic levels themselves.

Yeah, they could just roll +MCL into the epic leveling process to solve to problem so we get +1 CL/MLC every X levels. It would also make epic leveling feel smoother as we'd have a constant gain on our spells as we level up thru the bracket (instead of the current stagnation on a bunch of spells where they just get progressively weaker relative to mobs as we level up).

[Lynnabel]

Yeah, they could just roll +MCL into the epic leveling process to solve to problem so we get +1 CL/MLC every X levels. It would also make epic leveling feel smoother as we'd have a constant gain on our spells as we level up thru the bracket (instead of the current stagnation on a bunch of spells where they just get progressively weaker relative to mobs as we level up).

Frankly at this point I'd rather just remove the concept of a max caster level altogether and just give out caster levels when we want spells to actually increase in damage.

[rabidfox]

Frankly at this point I'd rather just remove the concept of a max caster level altogether and just give out caster levels when we want spells to actually increase in damage.

Oh, I would so love that if ever happens. Doing the pocket math on MCL stuff gets so annoying (and I'm sure it's annoying as all heck on your side of the screen too).

[Stravix]

Frankly at this point I'd rather just remove the concept of a max caster level altogether and just give out caster levels when we want spells to actually increase in damage.

Do it.

https://giphy.com/gifs/starwars-star...sw9CmwYpAnRRni

[Tchtutax]

Frankly at this point I'd rather just remove the concept of a max caster level altogether and just give out caster levels when we want spells to actually increase in damage.

Yes, doooo it!

[nobodynobody1426]

Frankly at this point I'd rather just remove the concept of a max caster level altogether and just give out caster levels when we want spells to actually increase in damage.

Would make it a ton easier to balance some things out, especially now that you guys standardized damage around the 1D6+<Spell Level> formula.

[danlan]

Frankly at this point I'd rather just remove the concept of a max caster level altogether and just give out caster levels when we want spells to actually increase in damage.

100% support this idea!

[rabidfox]

Would make it a ton easier to balance some things out, especially now that you guys standardized damage around the 1D6+<Spell Level> formula.

There's a couple spells that would probably need be nerf'd if MCL went away but I'd feel it'd be way better in the long run for it to be gone. All the spells that currently become meh as I approach 20 and even worse in epic levels being good again? WIN!

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

My only complaint here is that cannith crafted items could use some oomph in the following terms that could be delivered by raid granted crafting components:

1-Some new craftable effects, cannith crafting Raid shards! (Include Cursespewing, Feeding, and Trap The Soul as shard types that can all go onto the same weapon at the same time using the base three craftable effects)

2-Option to craft a 4th effect (Just make this fourth slot a secondary "Extra" type)

3-Option to name cannith crafted equipment piece after its fourth effect is applied, this also seals the item against deconstruction and enables it to be used as sentient food

4-Option to make a player named weapon sentient

5-Unique cannith item blanks such as crystal weapons with a purple and orange augment slot

6-Hidden Cannith Shard recipes that you unlock through monster manual objectives

I mean, if you are going to make Cannith crafted gear relevant in end game again, you should consider remarketing it by drawing significant attention to it that really gets everyone excited!

[Mahatu]

Frankly at this point I'd rather just remove the concept of a max caster level altogether and just give out caster levels when we want spells to actually increase in damage.

Oh my word, please? Casters on the whole feel so much more restrictive to build and that would be a huge help (honestly I wish caster levels stacked like BAB, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms).