U50 Preview 1: New Universal Enhancement Tree: Horizon Walker

[LurkingVeteran]

If it's a blink, what's the point of stats during said blink? Or is the intention to encourage players to attempt to tank Reflex effects with boosted saves vs just getting out of them with said blink? This feels sorta pointless unless I'm missing something, or unless the Reflex + Incorporeality lasts for a few seconds afterwards.

Not sure how long the incorp lasts, but Misty Step is an "abundant step" (= fast leap) ability, not a blink (=combat teleport). I don't think there even is a blink in DDO, they are all fast leaps forward including Shadar-Kai's Shadow Jaunt. This means you can be hit if you Misty Step past (or through, or above) mobs. A real blink is something I've long wished be added to casters. The real PnP 3.5 Dimension Door was actually a targeted short-range teleport: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm and incidentally the spell "Blink" was a random incorp buff instead. WoW popularized Blink as the name of a teleport :-)

[HuneyMunster]

Hey, everyone! Thanks for the great feedback on Horizon Walker in Preview 1.

Overall, a lot of you seemed to like the tree conceptually but had concerns about the overall power level of the tree (too low) and concerns about the usefulness of specific skills. Let's talk about a few of those concerns and ways we're looking to address them for Preview 2! (As always, this may change before Preview 2. In fact, some of it will almost definitely change before Preview 2. But we wanted to show you some plans ahead of time!)

• The overall power level of the tree is going up. Damage numbers in most places are either getting larger or scaling better.
• You all brought up a lot of bugs, which I'm hoping we can entirely knock out for Preview 2.
• The Marked Target debuffs in the Cores felt low to a lot of you, and we're bringing the numbers on the Fortification, AC, and Movement Speed penalties up. Saves is staying where it is for now, we want to look at it again in Preview 2.
• Some of you felt the Cores in general were a little low in power, as they largely only boosted the Mark; we're planning on adding a few things:
  
  • Core 2 will also give +3 Max Dex Bonus in Light Armor (Planar Dodge has moved to Tier 1 and no longer contains this bonus, simply 1/2/3% Dodge)
  • Core 3 will also grant a Haste SLA! Haste is a spell Horizon Walkers get in pen and paper, and we felt it fit well with the movement theme. (Expect to see more specific stats on much of this in Preview 2, assuming it's still there by then).
  • Core 4 will tentatively grant Max Dodge, but we're still debating how much.
  • Core 6 is... tentatively very going to be powerful, going to hold off on talking about it as we're still debating whether or not to keep this new version.
  
  
• Some of you were concerned about non-ranged characters having enough to spend on to get No Step Missed in Tier 3. After talking with the team, we've decided to leave No Step Missed where it is; there may be another tree in the future more suited to melees with a Dex trance in it. That said, we have made some adjustments to Tier 1 and 2 that may make it a bit easier for non-ranged builds to feel good about their points spent to reach No Step Missed.
• Some of you were concerned about Take the Opening not feeling rewarding enough for landing that opening shot. We've increased its bonus damage to 1d10 Force damage per Character Level, and its scaling to 200% Ranged Power.
• A few of you mentioned wanting connections to Archer's Focus in here: While it still requires standing still, we're planning a Tier 3 ability that would grant you extra stacks.
• Walker's Guidance felt underpowered to a few of you; we've moved it down to Tier 4, and have changed it to grant you and targeted ally Evasion, Improved Evasion and +5 to Saving Throws vs. Traps for 12 seconds.
• Quite a few of you were unsure about tumbling frequently for Dodge and Strike; we've doubled its power and moved it up, resulting in a new skill in Tier 5: Planar Power: When you tumble or use Misty Step, you gain Ranged Power equal to your Character Level for 12 seconds. 12 second cooldown.
• Speaking of Misty Step, using it will also grant Reflex Saves and Incorporeality during the step, allowing it to be used to more easily get through dangerous situations.
• We're also improving Scattershot, giving it the +1 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier that Manyshot gets, and another new Tier 5 skill above it: Powershot: Whenever you Critically Hit an enemy with Manyshot or Scattershot, that enemy takes 1d6 Force Damage per Character Level that scales with 200% Ranged Power.

That's not even all the changes, there's a few other nice surprises tentatively scattered through the tree as well. Let us know what you think!

The changes you made to Horizon certainly looks better for my Assassin. The addition of Max Dex Bonus in 2nd core does help as I will lose 4 Max Dex Bonus and 4 PRR from Light Armor Mastery will help with the lose as well as the 3 Max Dex Bonus I lose from Halfling to try Shadai-kai. I will end up losing the Tier 4 Whirling Chain (will defiantly give it a decent chance once released before taking trance), had planned to go for Shada-kai before Chain update just for Jaunt once racial past lives are done. Once the Destiny revamp is release I may be able to drop Tier 4 Vistani. I can't give a real input on the rest of Horizon as I've never played a bow in all the time I've played DDO. Though, I did have a look at Misty Step and agree it shouldn't be lower than Tier 5 with just a 5 second cooldown without charges or any other resource required.

[Sylveny]

I see a lot of concerns are about the archer focus stacks, I mean, deepwood stalker tree didn't fix that nor will this one, the problem lies in the feat itself, if this was the only tree that fixed that, that would make it mandatory, maybe you could hold stacks for 3 seconds after misty step, so you can misty step, shot, move a little and misty step again and maintain staks. But the better fix would be to fix the feat itself, maybe shot on the run could do something, maybe for both Improved precise shot and archer focus, so it is always good to take it.

I still think that there should still be a toggle to always on extra force damage that is based on ranged power, just like inquisitive, it would be a cool thing, could help low level gameplay, and a steady progression of damage with extra dies.

Scattered shot should've been just like fan of knifes too, I don't know why knifes would penetrate better than arrows shot from a bow

[Stormraiser]

Item defense is a very, very, very weak ability though. I cant say I have ever bothered putting points into that in any tree nor wanted to.
The +3 saves vs. traps isnt really strong either but atleast has some value.

So, you pretty much proved the point that there is nothing worthwhile to spend points on for a melee.

Yeah, who actually takes these abilities? Look at the dagger tree, how much MP, + damage and +W there is there. Look at inquisitor and how many damage dice and useful abilities there are there.

Compare this tree to both AA and Deepwood sniper.

13 AP in DS gets you +3 SA and sniper shot, a RP boost or HP/PRR
13 AP in AA gets you 5 elemental dice +3 to your weapon, a DR bypass and a good attack clickie.

[Stormraiser]

tumble effects are mostly useless due to the way one has to block first then tumble - if tumbling were updated to just activate based on triggers, or have an activation button separate from block then tumble - it would be supremely useful - but as it is now - any tumble effects are useless in my opinion.

This goes too for the 'item takes no damage' buy - this needs to be removed from DDO - back in the day when items could take permanent damage this was very useful, but now, none of the BTC/BTA items take perm dmg so who cares? Platinum is mostly worthless, so you have to pay 100 plat instead or you can spend 3 points to spend 30 plat when you repair - useless, utterly useless, outdated, needs to be removed from the game entirely

See above, repair is useless.

[Stormraiser]

I like it when the universal trees open up new class / build synergies and don't just buff existing archetypes. E.g., why not add something similar to Inquisitive's Inquisition Style?

Horizon Walker: Archery Style

• Eldritch Archery: While wielding a short- or longbow, you gain +10 Universal Spellpower and Soul Magic: Every time you strike an enemy with your bow, you have a 15% chance to gain 10 temporary spell points that last for one minute. Anti-requisite: Arcane Archer's Soul Magic Enhancement.
• Dashing Archery: You can Swashbuckle while wielding a shortbow.
• Divine Archery: You count short- and longbows as Favored weapons, regardless of your Deity.
• Martial Archery: +5% Doubleshot with short- and longbows.

Strong fan of this. Maybe add using a bow with a runearm as well.

[Stormraiser]

1. Mine do. Although mostly at lowest levels (which most people don't play anyway, I guess).
2. Repair costs are relevant after a character's death.

This is probably user error.

[Stormraiser]

That's essentially favored enemy. I'm surprised there's not more focus with favored enemy in the HW tree, aside from the token FE: Evil Outsider enhancement.

This could have been a perfect place to have multiselectors for favored enemies. A tree that let you pick another favored enemy at tier 2,3,4 and 5 would be quite wicked.

[Stormraiser]

Please give the Mark a toggle between being an active ability and a passive ability that automatically marks whichever target we have.

Agreed. Any "mark" type attack in heroics is almost always wasted because everything dies too fast.

[Stormraiser]

Hey, everyone! Thanks for the great feedback on Horizon Walker in Preview 1.

Overall, a lot of you seemed to like the tree conceptually but had concerns about the overall power level of the tree (too low) and concerns about the usefulness of specific skills. Let's talk about a few of those concerns and ways we're looking to address them for Preview 2! (As always, this may change before Preview 2. In fact, some of it will almost definitely change before Preview 2. But we wanted to show you some plans ahead of time!)

• The overall power level of the tree is going up. Damage numbers in most places are either getting larger or scaling better.
• You all brought up a lot of bugs, which I'm hoping we can entirely knock out for Preview 2.
• The Marked Target debuffs in the Cores felt low to a lot of you, and we're bringing the numbers on the Fortification, AC, and Movement Speed penalties up. Saves is staying where it is for now, we want to look at it again in Preview 2.
• Some of you felt the Cores in general were a little low in power, as they largely only boosted the Mark; we're planning on adding a few things:
  
  • Core 2 will also give +3 Max Dex Bonus in Light Armor (Planar Dodge has moved to Tier 1 and no longer contains this bonus, simply 1/2/3% Dodge)
  • Core 3 will also grant a Haste SLA! Haste is a spell Horizon Walkers get in pen and paper, and we felt it fit well with the movement theme. (Expect to see more specific stats on much of this in Preview 2, assuming it's still there by then).
  • Core 4 will tentatively grant Max Dodge, but we're still debating how much.
  • Core 6 is... tentatively very going to be powerful, going to hold off on talking about it as we're still debating whether or not to keep this new version.
  
  
• Some of you were concerned about non-ranged characters having enough to spend on to get No Step Missed in Tier 3. After talking with the team, we've decided to leave No Step Missed where it is; there may be another tree in the future more suited to melees with a Dex trance in it. That said, we have made some adjustments to Tier 1 and 2 that may make it a bit easier for non-ranged builds to feel good about their points spent to reach No Step Missed.
• Some of you were concerned about Take the Opening not feeling rewarding enough for landing that opening shot. We've increased its bonus damage to 1d10 Force damage per Character Level, and its scaling to 200% Ranged Power.
• A few of you mentioned wanting connections to Archer's Focus in here: While it still requires standing still, we're planning a Tier 3 ability that would grant you extra stacks.
• Walker's Guidance felt underpowered to a few of you; we've moved it down to Tier 4, and have changed it to grant you and targeted ally Evasion, Improved Evasion and +5 to Saving Throws vs. Traps for 12 seconds.
• Quite a few of you were unsure about tumbling frequently for Dodge and Strike; we've doubled its power and moved it up, resulting in a new skill in Tier 5: Planar Power: When you tumble or use Misty Step, you gain Ranged Power equal to your Character Level for 12 seconds. 12 second cooldown.
• Speaking of Misty Step, using it will also grant Reflex Saves and Incorporeality during the step, allowing it to be used to more easily get through dangerous situations.
• We're also improving Scattershot, giving it the +1 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier that Manyshot gets, and another new Tier 5 skill above it: Powershot: Whenever you Critically Hit an enemy with Manyshot or Scattershot, that enemy takes 1d6 Force Damage per Character Level that scales with 200% Ranged Power.

That's not even all the changes, there's a few other nice surprises tentatively scattered through the tree as well. Let us know what you think!

This is a very good start. But please get rid of the reduced item damage line, especially as a ranged. Only one very special poster has said something positive about it.

Is it possible to add 1 +sneak attack die on marked targets per tier? Or say +3 RP per tier on any target that is marked.

[Stormraiser]

So lemme see if I've got this straight:

• Horizon Walker is focused on single-target ranged DPS via Marked Target debuff + Opening Shot / Take the Opening
• single-target ranged DPS is boosted by Archer's Focus which requires not moving to build stacks and prevent decay
• Horizon Walker has various movement-based abilities including Dodge & Strike and Misty Step

So Horizon Walker is telling us to hold still to build up stacks of Archer's Focus to increase single-target ranged DPS (ostensibly the tree's focus) while simultaneously telling us to dodge-roll like we're in a John Woo film to gain a separate Ranged Power buff. Maybe it's finally time to add a feat or Enhancement which preserves stacks of Archer's Focus while moving? Particularly since (A) stacks of Archer's Focus are harder to build after the Doubleshot changes and (B) you guys keep adding new movement-based bonuses.

In a raid do you really want to leader to say, "okay, now it's time to ROLL!!!" and have 3 characters tumble instead of attacking the boss?

[Stormraiser]

Please stop trying to force us to use movement based abilities with a combat mechanic that is based off of increasing power through not moving. And tying anything to tumble, please just don't. Several people have pointed out the mechanical issues so unless you are going to change it so you can shoot while tumbling (i.e. not stop attacking to get some damage) but doing that make create other combat issues.

Strongly agreed. How does the concept of tumbling in place when there are no enemies help make your shots better?

[IlmerSilverhilt]

Im gonna stay AA/Falc. I had thought about spending up to 7 points for the tumble/ranged power, but moving it to T5 puts it way out of reach for me

[donblas]

Hey, everyone! Thanks for the great feedback on Horizon Walker in Preview 1.

Overall, a lot of you seemed to like the tree conceptually but had concerns about the overall power level of the tree (too low) and concerns about the usefulness of specific skills. Let's talk about a few of those concerns and ways we're looking to address them for Preview 2! (As always, this may change before Preview 2. In fact, some of it will almost definitely change before Preview 2. But we wanted to show you some plans ahead of time!)



That's not even all the changes, there's a few other nice surprises tentatively scattered through the tree as well. Let us know what you think!

You have obviously listened and reacted positively to concerns by player - that's awesome and really cool of you.

I'm still concerned about how clunky the whole marking mechanism is - will your target be dead by the time you've actually started shooting, or at least will another player already have inflicted damage to it thus negating Take the Opening".

How much damage could one have inflicted during the time one has tumbled - and again, isn't it possible that the target has been damaged or killed during that time by another player?

And doing both marking, then tumbling? I'm sure some other players will be wondering why you aren't actually attacking the enemy.

I'm still unsure of the utility of Walker's Guidance. The user's toon will likely already have evasion and possibly improved evasion (or be in heavier armor, and so not eligible for evasion or improved evasion), and the same is very likely of any allies.

I think it's a little odd that two of the T5 abilities (Misty Step, and Dodge and Strike) are incompatible with part of another T5 (Improved Archer's Focus). Will constantly tumbling and shooting be as useful as standing still? Would anyone take both?

I hope you've removed Weathered Gear (presumably to make way for Planar Dodge).

Is Planar Dodge worth the APs spent, considered that the MDB part has been removed?

Is Nowhere to Hide actually of any use? Will anyone take it?

Remember, this will be a paid-for tree. Bow combat is not terribly effective, so you are trying to appeal to people who like bows and to convince people who don't use bow characters at moment to try them out and buy this tree.

Rangers can get DWS and AA - will this tree be worth paying for in order to drop most of one of those trees?

Other classes can go elf and take AA (wasting some APs) and the trees for their class. Will people want to buy this tree to replace any of those trees?

[SpartanKiller13]

Not sure how long the incorp lasts, but Misty Step is an "abundant step" (= fast leap) ability, not a blink (=combat teleport). I don't think there even is a blink in DDO, they are all fast leaps forward including Shadar-Kai's Shadow Jaunt. This means you can be hit if you Misty Step past (or through, or above) mobs. A real blink is something I've long wished be added to casters. The real PnP 3.5 Dimension Door was actually a targeted short-range teleport: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm and incidentally the spell "Blink" was a random incorp buff instead. WoW popularized Blink as the name of a teleport :-)

I assumed the "but you disappear" part of the description (quoted below) meant something useful, not that you turn invisible as you slide forward. Maybe I'm wrong, but to me that looks like a blink that's the same distance as an abundant step with similar CD? Like instead of sliding 20 units across .4 seconds (or whatever Abundant Step is) you'd blink 20 units across 0 seconds (maybe with a tiny cast time and animation lock so it's balanced w/r/t Abundant).

Idk, even if you "can" be hit while dashing through mobs that's a very low priority to me - it's a very small window of opportunity. I don't think it's happened to me in my past stack of lives more than once or twice, although maybe I've just not noticed. Maybe different since I'm often trying to dash into combat?

Dimension Door in 3.5 is actually a pretty long-ranged teleport in combat terms; it's only short-ranged in terms of map mobility, but it would take you across 700' when you first get access to it which is like outside effective longbow range. Something like Baleful Transposition is a short-ranged teleport - having 30' range when you first gain access.

I used Blink as a separate term vs Dash thanks to LoL, but YMMV I was just looking for a colloquial term. DDO has traveled far from PnP by now

Misty Step: As Abundant Step, but you disappear. (Shares a cooldown with other abundant steps).

[Noircere]

Just chiming in to say I agree that movement abilities feel at-odds with the existence and availability of Archer's Focus.

I'd recommend replacing the improved archer's focus effect, and consider offering an exclusive stance that does something similar so Horizon Walkers don't need to use Archer's Focus at all.

For example: Hunter's Focus: Toggle, exclusive with Archer's Focus & Improved Precise Shot. Gain 1 stack of X ranged power when dealing critical damage to your marked target, and gain three stacks when your marked target dies. Decays one stack at a time, and on a longer decay timer than Archer's Focus. Has the same max stacks as Archer's Focus, benefits from all effects which improve Archer's Focus. (No interaction with movement / standing still.)

[lronEnema]

Aw - very disappointed.

I thought we were go to be able to dual wield longbows and fire them with our teeth.

[unbongwah]

In a raid do you really want to leader to say, "okay, now it's time to ROLL!!!" and have 3 characters tumble instead of attacking the boss?

No, I want a tree which doesn't feel like it's at odds with itself.

Take Acrobat. You get Fast Movement. You have Staff Lunge and Vault. There's a few buffs based on Tumble, the most important being the capstone ("After tumbling with a staff equipped, for 12 seconds gain +50% strikethrough chance and gain On Vorpal: Your target is knocked down."). I know not every player enjoys this type of character, but everything in the tree is pretty well focused on being highly mobile in combat. Plus the Rule of Cool applies to backflips and cartwheels.

Now take Horizon Walker. The devs say it's focused on single-target DPS with a bow. One of the most important buffs to single-target ranged DPS requires standing still to max out its bonus (Archer's Focus). Yet a couple of HW's major features are based on movement, which negatively impacts its core focus. And Tumble isn't even a ranger skill, who let's face it are going to be 90% of all Horizon Walkers at least initially. I dislike it any time the devs set a "newbie trap" like that.

[Vyrzain]

.........

Walker training - too little, if you're focusing on single target damage then increase it to +2/+3 if you're not in IPS.

Weathered gear
- not that useful for most especially ranged builds, but if you're set on having it in there and not being too powerful, then have a multiselector with fletching (50/65/80% chance of returning).
Still not that useful but at least if you want to use up some of those holy or elemental arrows you keep picking up or for those who like crafting arrows.

Take the opening
- this won't work well with a group given even a tiny amount of damage before you launch your attack will negate some of the benefits.
Make it over 90% or something similar and even then you have to hope someone doesn't do an AOE attack on the mobs.
And generally as a ranged build in a group you don't want to be the one that fires at mobs first as you then gain their aggro - so you might wait till either theyre held or someone more tanky takes their aggro, by which time its too late to use this.

Skilled Navigator:
Most the builds I can think of which would be dex based would already have a very high reflex save against traps to the point where they don't fail except on a 1 which this wouldn't help with.
So maybe add doesn't automatically fail on a 1 for saves against traps for tier 3.

Dodge and strike
- again given that this is a single target focused tree and anyone focusing on single target damage will be using archer's focus this enhancement doesn't make sense given that any movement will reset your timer for archer's focus.
Maybe instead give a number of stacks of archer's focus and also allow you to immediately start gaining further stacks without waiting for the 4 second timer.

Two Places At Once:
Nice enough feat for heroics but given you can get permanent displacement in the updated ranged ED, its use is likely to be restricted to heroics only.
Possibly add in something passive e.g. if you already have displacement you get an additional 5% bonus to concealment.

Planar dodge - certainly in epics its not that hard for a light armour user to hit the dodge cap of 27 even without taking enhancements, so somewhere in the tree you need something to increase the max dodge bonus.

Corner the Quarry
- listen isn't really used anywhere else in the game apart from a few staged instances so if you take listen then its solely going to be for this enhancement.
That's a lot of skill points to invest as well as find somewhere to fit in the listen skill into your itemisation.
Either change to spot or add something in to make investing in listen more worth while.

Walker's Guidance:
Most bow users that can benefit from evasion (i.e. wear light/no armour) will already have evasion through ranger/rogue/monk so likely to be of little benefit to your own character.
Might be useful to get something like a wizard through a deadly trap but even then you may well have a trapper in the party and wizard etc likely to still have poor enough reflex save that the +5 isn't going to help them make the save against the trap.

Misty step
- When you say disappear does that remove aggro from you? Again will interfere with archer's focus.

Improved archer's focus
- fix the gain of stacks of archer's focus, it's a lot harder to gain them now since the changes.

In general terms it seems a bit weak, particularly in terms of DPS v ordinary mobs if you are single targeting.
For rangers might want to look at some synergy with other enhancement trees - Arcane Archer, DWS (and maybe other class enhancement trees).

E.g. force arrows in AA - currently does 1d6 damage, one of the enhancements in the HW tree could increase this to be the same as the other elemental arrows.

+1 on the ideas…

If this was the case then look into getting this Tree : )
I have been asking for something like this for months on a Ranger / Bow user.
A good idea was to add Fletching to the DWS cores.

See…
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...58#post6340158

As the HW tree is now though, as others have pointed out… there is not much in it : (

And I dislike Scattershot.. the ability is cool and seems to be the best thing about this tree but when the DEV’s stat...

Focuses of this tree include: • Single-Target Bow Damage
To me it seems they are going against their own concept : (

I also dislike the Mark Target, again as others have pointed out.

[Itchybeard]

Didn't test before I logged off.

What about auto-attack and MT? It kind of feels like it would go haywire somehow. Again I forgot to test this.

On April 7th, you said "Goodbye SSG & DDO" and decided to leave. What made you stick around? (I'm genuinely curious).