A Lesson from the Past for all you Doomsayers

[Deslen]

I've been playing DDO a long time. A glance at my join date will tell you that.

I've seen the game go through *many* changes... regular enhancements are on their third itteration. Back when they went to overhaul the original enhancement system (when you only had FOUR enhancemnts total), I cried foul. I cried doom, and was ever so irate because I was loosing Fighter's Dodge II. I lost 2 points of armor class, which back then was kind of a big deal for a tank.

Now, what did I get in return for the two points of AC? A lot of things. Haste boost, more weapon damage, more intimidate, more hit points... but all I could see, initially, was what I lost.

The new epic destiny system will shake things up. The meta will likely, in many ways, be turned on its head. But you know what? DDO will survive.

I'm not telling you to ****. Voice your opinions, offer contructive criticism. The preview is not the be-all-end-all-this-is-how-its-gonna-be. I know that tons of people are threatening to quit... how many will? A drop in the bucket. The rest of us will figure out the new system, and most of us will enjoy it. DDO will survive.

[Arkat]

Lyrin,

15 years is a long time to play one single MMO.

Maybe it's too long.

The ED change might just be the thing to shake loose some of us who're just looking for the excuse to go.

[Deslen]

Lyrin,

15 years is a long time to play one single MMO.

Maybe it's too long.

The ED change might just be the thing to shake loose some of us who're just looking for the excuse to go.

Maybe it is... but what's more likely to drive people away is stagnation. *shrugs* Most people threatening to leave will stay. A few will leave, and half of them will come back after sulking a while.

DDO has survived because of its adaptation, and because it rewards those who have put the time in. I'm pretty sure the new ED system will be a good thing to draw in new players. That's something this game needs.

[Cernunan]

Lyrin,

15 years is a long time to play one single MMO.

Maybe it's too long.

The ED change might just be the thing to shake loose some of us who're just looking for the excuse to go.

In addition, some us have played for 15 years, and DO NOT want to leave.

No changes in all those years made me want to stop playing.

Not one.

This new system is a harbinger of what's to come. I'm seriously considering quitting a game I love for the first time in 15 years

[MistaMagic]

The ED change might just be the thing to shake loose some of us who're just looking for the excuse to go.

Every change will see someone quit but im holding out to see how it all pans out and not throw my Rattle out of the Pram on a 1st Preview on an update that is not even any where ready yet

[rabidfox]

I don't know Lyrin, from all the times I've healed you, I think you might still need Fighter's Dodge II...

The update should shake things up pretty well. The hardest part for me is going be breaking years of muscle memory and habits for 'which buttons to press when' with all the changes; 30+ lives of FvS healer in row has solidified a lot of patterns and routines. But mass cocoon?!! Yes please!

[Valerianus]

ddo is brutally new player unfriendly, turbine was so misguided to do everything in its power to damage group play, and ddo has no marketing whatsoever and never had.

it survived only because

1) D&D brand, even if not advertised and wasting so much potential in so many years

2) great community. outstanding. i love you.

3) it is different from other mmo. not trinity, build customization, interesting gameplay. engaging, no dumb the same fixed rotation in any situation over and over.


the new ED will attract players? ED are paywalled, bad decision, always has been, atm 33,3% char progression paywalled. it's insane. it makes new player uninstalling. pay-to-grind business model.

[Enderoc]

My opinion DDO is going to be on the uptick once Gen Z realizes its here.
D&D is HUGE for these new generations all thats needed is promotion of the game to see the Harbor full again.
So threatening to quit is a non issue...
As long as there is a movement to recruit new players from a deep well of them just sitting there ready to flood in there isn't a single reason why anyonr could stop changes that would benefit new and returning players....
Because it does

[Khimberlhyte]

Tweaks to systems, I can learn to live with eventually - I only left for 5-6 years after the U19 enhancement pass, after all. The alchemist nerfs hit in early 2021 just after I capped my first alch life, and I didn't ragequit. While the nerfs were too heavy handed, there was no question that alchemist was overpowered. I just moved on to a monk life.

But changes to the look and feel matter a lot more. I'm not here to play ShinyGenericFantasyGame2021. Look and feel matter. Does it feel like crawling a dungeon with friends back in high school? Is it Dungeons and Dragons, where I'm swinging a sword or slinging spells, creeping along in a dungeon, and kicking down doors?

The epic destiny charge icons floating around my character gets a hard no from me. I tried the U51 preview on Lama, and absolutely hated those icons since they break immersion and have no place in D&D. I don't enjoy playing artificer, and the rune arm symbols and charging is one of the reasons. I'd probably have turned my alchemist's swirling colors off had I been able to do so.

The builder-spender system locks away much of the power in the new destiny trees. I fear that to be effective, epic players will be forced into a simplistic playstyle that rotates around hitting the builder button over and over, followed by a spender every 25 seconds. Nothing in the charge system even equals epic feats and destiny abilities such as EiN, Dire Charge, Turn of the Tide, Mass Frog - especially since many builds can currently get two of these epic abilities instead of just one. Both feats and destiny trees have worthwhile, top tier, epic/legendary abilities today.

Static cooldown timers in the existing system are predictable, and you can conserve things like Wail of the Banshee for when you need them or when they will be most effective, just like other heroic abilities that have varying cooldowns (Cauldron of Flame, etc). I cannot count the number of times I've lost a monk finisher in combat, to the point that I stopped using them. I've pressed the button and triggered cooldowns without anything happening for spells, feats, clickies, and enhancement abilities on every class. Given SSG's lack of success on fixing lag, I have no optimism that the charge system will be any more reliable than existing spells, monk builders+finishers, ladders, or a host of other systems in DDO.

Instead of eliminating the barriers in the current systems and improving them, SSG are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and creating a new set of problems. The people who hated the existing system already stopped playing. My guess is that U51 will drive away far more existing players than it will bring back people who quit over destinies. In life, there are risks that become worth taking if the reward is high enough. SSG is betting everything they have on an unnecessary risk. I don't think I'd be alone in betting against them on this one.

[Eme]

But you know what? DDO will survive.
.

speculation.

Many of us remember the disaster of SWG NGE and the impact that had on that game and don't want to see that happen here.

[TFerguson]

I'm pretty sure the new ED system will be a good thing to draw in new players. That's something this game needs.

This game has as much chance of getting new players as I do of regrowing my hair.

New players are mythical, like big foot or an honest politician.

[LittleLexi]

This game has as much chance of getting new players as I do of regrowing my hair.

New players are mythical, like big foot or an honest politician.

This is simply not true. I've spent a lot of my time playing with, and helping out new players. That is true even today. Are there a lot of new players? No. But far more than most people realize. Many don't stick around. And many more are would-be players...If the powers-that-be actually did a better job of attracting and keeping them.

[LightBear]

You know what, when the "Survivalists'" post start to outnumber the "rage quitters" the tipping point has past.

I'm in favor of changes, not so much of a level gated system and that builder spender thing is a playstyle that makes you skip rest shrines.
The speed in the game is way to high to keep track of those things.

[Shadospawn]

My opinion DDO is going to be on the uptick once Gen Z realizes its here.
D&D is HUGE for these new generations all thats needed is promotion of the game to see the Harbor full again.
So threatening to quit is a non issue...
As long as there is a movement to recruit new players from a deep well of them just sitting there ready to flood in there isn't a single reason why anyonr could stop changes that would benefit new and returning players....
Because it does

This is pure fantasy. Gen Z (mostly!) game on consoles. That’s the only way you’re going to actually dip into that market. That or get it to go mobile. Hey RuneScape as old as it is has millions of players now. That will not happen with this game. This game has about 2000 players on at any given time. Once it starts dipping into the 1500s on average I think you’ll be in real trouble. The timing is not optimal for a shakeup. World is opening back up. People are getting out again. Good time to shake off a game or find something else to play for a while.

Some business models rely heavily on that last 10%. I certainly think there’s more room here but you can only say “oh it’s only a few drops in the bucket” for so long. Then suddenly your bucket is empty.

[Kitma]

This is pure fantasy. Gen Z (mostly!) game on consoles. That’s the only way you’re going to actually dip into that market. That or get it to go mobile. Hey RuneScape as old as it is has millions of players now. That will not happen with this game. This game has about 2000 players on at any given time. Once it starts dipping into the 1500s on average I think you’ll be in real trouble. The timing is not optimal for a shakeup. World is opening back up. People are getting out again. Good time to shake off a game or find something else to play for a while.

Some business models rely heavily on that last 10%. I certainly think there’s more room here but you can only say “oh it’s only a few drops in the bucket” for so long. Then suddenly your bucket is empty.

Couldn't agree more.

I work with a few Gen Z'ers who play other MMO's who expressed an interest in DDO as I was so enthusiastic about it. I created accounts for them and applied the code that give a lot of the quests and invited them all to come look.

Of the three of them, not a single one of them completed Korthos.

"It's too clunky"
"the camera control is awful"
"are they going to update how it looks?"
"it's just dull sorry"

DDO needs to hang onto the players it has left as if my experience is any indication, new players are unlikely to stick around.
I agree with Eme, I saw the SWG NGE destroy a game so it does happen. While I don't think this is that bad (I have NEVER seen a game forum explode like that), I don't believe that DDO has the population to sustain even a moderate hit to it's population, especially as the world gets back to normal and people are potentially thinking of moving on anyway. As I've said in another post, I left once before when my chars got broken after a pass and only came back last year as many people did.


At best, I will see how it plays out once the update hits but even if I do continue playing, I'll never trust SSG with my money again. Not investing cash into things that just get taken away anymore. What I hate the most is that I should have learned my lesson the first time around.

To address the OP and the lesson from the past, the lesson I think is most appropriate is that the population is a fraction of what it used to be and we're not seeing much in the way of new blood. The game may survive constant hits but each hit makes the population smaller.

To sit in a boat full of holes, that's letting on water, watching the dev team preparing to fire a cannonball at us instead of passing a much needed extra bucket to help us bail and saying "we've not sunk yet, this is just fine" seems naïve to me. Part of me applauds your optimism but I for one do not share it.

[Gniewomir]

Couldn't agree more.

I work with a few Gen Z'ers who play other MMO's who expressed an interest in DDO as I was so enthusiastic about it. I created accounts for them and applied the code that give a lot of the quests and invited them all to come look.

Of the three of them, not a single one of them completed Korthos.

"It's too clunky"
"the camera control is awful"
"are they going to update how it looks?"
"it's just dull sorry"

DDO needs to hang onto the players it has left as if my experience is any indication, new players are unlikely to stick around.

I've got even bigger sample. During my ddo days 3 times (last one when free packs code was available) i attempted to find new players (for guild reasons only, but still :P). I was posting about ddo on MMO forums and places like that. I've managed to convince something between 50 and 100 players to give ddo a try. Not a single one stayed. Huge majority left after their first attempt. Huge majority of those who stayed left after few days. Probably less than 5 stayed for more than a week a then left just like everyone else. There were only two who stayed for around a month and then quit.

Of course there're some exceptions and there are some new players who are staying for longer, but my experience tells me DDO have literally 0 ability to attract new players and i honestly believe turbine/ssg never had any intention to change that. But this also makes loss of every single player more meaningful. Even if only few dozens of players will drop, imo its something ddo cant afford. Just like someone else said earlier: few drops here, few drops there...

Of course entirely different matter is: how many of those who claim they'll quit will quit indeed? My experience with forumites says not many, but there're also some players who don't voice their opinions on forums, they just leave without single word. My in game friends list is full of such players.

[SpartanKiller13]

I've got even bigger sample. During my ddo days 3 times (last one when free packs code was available) i attempted to find new players (for guild reasons only, but still :P). I was posting about ddo on MMO forums and places like that. I've managed to convince something between 50 and 100 players to give ddo a try. Not a single one stayed. Huge majority left after their first attempt. Huge majority of those who stayed left after few days. Probably less than 5 stayed for more than a week a then left just like everyone else. There were only two who stayed for around a month and then quit.

Of course there're some exceptions and there are some new players who are staying for longer, but my experience tells me DDO have literally 0 ability to attract new players and i honestly believe turbine/ssg never had any intention to change that. But this also makes loss of every single player more meaningful. Even if only few dozens of players will drop, imo its something ddo cant afford. Just like someone else said earlier: few drops here, few drops there...

I'm part of an open-invite guild that runs a lot of teaching raids. There's new people all the time, and quite a few of them are at least making epics which is more than a few days for a first-time player.

Now, retaining those new players long-term is a lot more questionable - although there are definitely quite a few who stay, there's also plenty who leave after a few months. Stuff like removing the ED grind-fest will help a bit IMO, and new players don't care if something's 10% stronger or weaker - they care if it's easy enough to understand and it currently isn't. "You're saying I should be playing in the Bard ED? *** is Karma? How do I get the Cacoon people keep telling me about? Why am I stuck leveling US?" There's a lot of other things I think could help new players, and I'm happy to see any steps towards improving retention and reducing grind.

Idk. The vets will adapt, we'll probably think it's an improvement after like 6 months once we figure out how to optimize the new system (like we all thought the THF rework was trash until it hit live).

[Dejvid]

Couldn't agree more.

I work with a few Gen Z'ers who play other MMO's who expressed an interest in DDO as I was so enthusiastic about it. I created accounts for them and applied the code that give a lot of the quests and invited them all to come look.

Of the three of them, not a single one of them completed Korthos.

"It's too clunky"
"the camera control is awful"
"are they going to update how it looks?"
"it's just dull sorry"

DDO needs to hang onto the players it has left as if my experience is any indication, new players are unlikely to stick around.
I agree with Eme, I saw the SWG NGE destroy a game so it does happen. While I don't think this is that bad (I have NEVER seen a game forum explode like that), I don't believe that DDO has the population to sustain even a moderate hit to it's population, especially as the world gets back to normal and people are potentially thinking of moving on anyway. As I've said in another post, I left once before when my chars got broken after a pass and only came back last year as many people did.
<snip>

over the past few years i have made similar experiences when trying to get new poeple to join this game (or lotro to a lesser extend, because ddo is my "main" one).
its not only the issues youve mentioned, two of the major ones i always hear are "its to laggy" and "why is everything monetized?".

especially that monetization issue is huge for new players. once they realize its not only content, but basically every little bit that wants your money in some form or another (yes i know, you dont have to pay, but thats the issue with all games and yet its okay to critizize korean games for example, but not this company) they just smile and leave. and honestly, i cant blame them. why stick with ddo and its clunky, laggy overprized everything, when you can get your fix at the competition?
ddo is just greedy in so many aspects, and then trying to alienate your remaining customers with some decisions over the past few months would be the last thing that should be done. but here we are.

same as you, i also took several breaks over time but always came back.
the only difference since the last time i came back is that i stopped giving money.

[Gniewomir]

I'm happy to see any steps towards improving retention and reducing grind.

And this is something i don't see here. Whats more, instead of reducing grind i see entirely new layer of grind. Grind now is being shifted from maxing all eds (24m) to making all EPL (something around 384m xp) mandatory to farm for points you can spend in ed trees (in addition to already existing epl bonuses).

Getting rid of all the karma/maxing ed stuff? Sure. Pushing all new players/alts to farm epl? Nty.

[Aelonwy]

And this is something i don't see here. Whats more, instead of reducing grind i see entirely new layer of grind. Grind now is being shifted from maxing all eds (24m) to making all EPL (something around 384m xp) mandatory to farm for points you can spend in ed trees (in addition to already existing epl bonuses).

Getting rid of all the karma/maxing ed stuff? Sure. Pushing all new players/alts to farm epl? Nty.

This^. I guess they weren't selling enough Epic Ottos or Improved Epic Ottos.