U51 changes

[arminius]

There is nothing in the new system that a new player who starts in Epics after these changes could not earn. Furthermore, after these changes you will not need Karma to Epic Reincarnate, which will make the Epic Reincarnation process more streamlined than it was before, as you will not be forced to play in an off-destiny. You will also not need to level up a destiny to unlock different destinies, as all trees will be unlocked for you at level 20.

Those are all cool things, and not a single one of them required gutting the destinies and the epic feats of their most popular, most effective, and most flexible and versatile features.

[Arjen]

Those are all cool things, and not a single one of them required gutting the destinies and the epic feats of their most popular, most effective, and most flexible and versatile features.

The conclusion that I've reached is that the game I want to play and the one that SSG wishes to make just are not the same thing any longer. It's been a mostly fun and sometimes bumpy ride but I think this is it for me. ED ravamp is (IMO) terrible and I don't want a level cap increase.

¯\_(?)_/¯

[Enderoc]

Make Epic destini class focused , make it more if you need and stop with this thing you doing now...

its just bad...

i understand that you do this nerf bc you want to add more lvl and you need to prep ppl for it but still this is just wrong

if you want to do destini that will be good for all it will just suck insted make more of them that are just more class/combat/spells focused

insted of making shadowdancer some strange assasin-necro-illusion c--p make it full assasin...

ect ect

another example is primal avater you guys want to change ed taht we can take 3 ed's now so why for the love of god you mix caster enh's with 2wf in it... why!? do you still rly think ppl will take him if they got magister/draconic/exalted for caster or LD/Fury/shadowdancer for melee? ppl that use primal avatar are new ppl or few ppl who did build for it and its like 2-3 ppl per server or less

I stopped reading when you mentioned casters not having twf because most casters I know tote two weapons ...not sure where you are playing biut..

[iamjavs]

I always knew eventually I would stop playing this game. It's been fun. All the upcoming changes are a slap in the face for the vets that have grinded out our characters to a point where we are happy with them. Good bye ddo, hello consoles.

[Qlumsee]

Sigh! Monk screwed yet again.

[anangel22]

There has been doomsaying with every power nerf and the game is still here. But this is something different, even as the usual "anti-elite nahnahnah, now you can't solo r10 anymore!"-muppet-brigade chimes in. This is a nerf of fun and way of playing. And it pretty much shows what happens when people having their say about a game's system don't really play it themselves.

Reaching lvl 20 is a breath of fresh air for anyone who plays heroics often - and as TRing has become the defining feature of the game, that is a substantial part of the playerbase. After dragging through the chain of ever same quests by the number, you suddenly can more or less choose whatever you like, play with your friends across the level gap, jump into more or less any lfm you feel like. Because you get a considerable amount of your epic level power at 20. This will all be gone. Now you can drag yourself through the quest level numbers and people who can effectively play together will be greatly reduced.

This will be your SWG moment, dear SSG. You really seem hellbent on killing your game. Isn't there a simpler way? Can't you just switch it off or something?

[Tilomere]

Not only are they level gating, they are taking almost all the useful abilities and either nuking them from Orbit IE meld...

Meld is going to be a permanent 60% uncapped dodge, which means you will be able to stay at 95% indefinitely on many builds. Then, because it is part of the martial sphere, you will also be able to have dire charge. All melee builds in the game will be martialx3 LD T5 (Dire Charge and meld +1 martial max charge) SD T3 (Meld and meld+1 martial max charge) GMOF T3 (Meld +1 martial max charge) now.

What we are doing with a charge/benefit sphere system is simplifying the epic destinies down to 4 choices, one for each sphere. Martial, Primal, Divine, or Arcane. You will want tons of charge maximum increases and abilities that scale off that charge type. If you are melee, you will take martialx3, if you are ranged you will take primalx3, if you are a tank or healer you will take divinex3, and if you are an arcane you will take arcanex3.

So you have your choice of any 3 epic destinies to take, but epic destinies are sorted into groups of 3 that work together, so you will generally take all 3 from the same group that matches your archtype. You can make any of the 3 in a group your primary one. It is similar to live where you pick your primary destiny, just that essentially your twists which are the abilities of the other two destinies in the same group are decided for you.

[Alttab]

There is nothing in the new system that a new player who starts in Epics after these changes could not earn. Furthermore, after these changes you will not need Karma to Epic Reincarnate, which will make the Epic Reincarnation process more streamlined than it was before, as you will not be forced to play in an off-destiny. You will also not need to level up a destiny to unlock different destinies, as all trees will be unlocked for you at level 20.

Thanks Lynnabel. I only read in overview the new system, but it looks like it is opening a realm of new possibilities. Looks good to me

[Chacka_DDO]

A lot of the ideas in the new ED system are very good in my opinion but of course, not everything is "ideal"
I certainly miss EIN in the GMoF destiny or I don't like that you have up to 3 different charges to manage to use your "spenders".

But this is also declared an early preview and not final and I'm optimistic we will get something that is better than what we have currently!

[KoobTheProud]

There has been doomsaying with every power nerf and the game is still here.

We have no idea if this is a power nerf or not. It may well turn out to be a power explosion as people find they are able to cobble together very powerful builds at endgame that would not be possible now due to the way ED's and Epic Feats interact.

It's pretty clear it is going to be a power nerf in the early 20's for players with fully fleshed out ED's. However those levels are a small part of the overall DDO experience. 30+ may well become the place most people hang out moving forward and the system clearly has the potential to create a very broken meta at cap if things are done wrong.

[Firebreed]

As a person who neither has all the destinies leveled on my toons, nor a ton of epic past lives, the proposed changes are welcome.

The level cap increase, should it in any way make the current endgame loot obsolete, is not.

I hope you know what you're doing.

[Mininin67]

Meld is going to be a permanent 60% uncapped dodge, which means you will be able to stay at 95% indefinitely on many builds. Then, because it is part of the martial sphere, you will also be able to have dire charge. All melee builds in the game will be martialx3 LD T5 (Dire Charge and meld +1 martial max charge) SD T3 (Meld and meld+1 martial max charge) GMOF T3 (Meld +1 martial max charge) now.

What we are doing with a charge/benefit sphere system is simplifying the epic destinies down to 4 choices, one for each sphere. Martial, Primal, Divine, or Arcane. You will want tons of charge maximum increases and abilities that scale off that charge type. If you are melee, you will take martialx3, if you are ranged you will take primalx3, if you are a tank or healer you will take divinex3, and if you are an arcane you will take arcanex3.

So you have your choice of any 3 epic destinies to take, but epic destinies are sorted into groups of 3 that work together, so you will generally take all 3 from the same group that matches your archtype. You can make any of the 3 in a group your primary one. It is similar to live where you pick your primary destiny, just that essentially your twists which are the abilities of the other two destinies in the same group are decided for you.

So now you are making melee stay in melee, caster in caster, healer in healer.

So like it was not hard enough to play hybred classes you are making it even harder.

Thanks but no thanks

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

Understanding the why is important. This massive change to a system that is not broke, that is already fun, that provides players with skills and abilities that they love and use is for one reason: To set the framework for SSG to add more levels to DDO beyond level 30. That is it. The present game really only works up to lvl 30 - and lore wise this is accurate. For them to expand into MMO/Videogame land and, like WoW, add dozens and dozens of new levels for us to grind (With no point I might add) they need a new paradigm that will enable them to control the power creep.

the present game's epic/legendary destinies are not broke, there is nothing wrong with the system - it has worked well for 10 years.

One might even argue that because of that it is DDO - presently, anyone working Epic past lives is very well aquainted with the present system. It is fun and though not perfect - works well. Many of the present destinies need to be updated and I have fully supported those updates.

But this new idea - which SSG is doing to provide a path for their business model to extend into the future - maps the next decade where they raise the actual levels. NOW - in the Dungeons and Dragons world we are already in speculative levels @ lvl 30 - beyond that the rules are not very clear, though 5e has some helpful things, as well as older archived rules from 3, 3.5, 4. But DDO does not care about any of that - they are a homebrew ruleset - that is very clear - and with every update they move further away from 'Dungeons and Dragons' into videogame land.

So, WoW, Elder Scrolls, Diablo - etc - have all massively changed their game to raise levels - DDO is jumping on that. If we look at what they have done over in LOTRO we can see they have no problem adding dozens and dozens of levels that do not really add to the fun, but the grind.

If they really wanted to take a page out of MMO land they would harken WoW who just did a massive level crunch. Why? Because adding new levels is untenable. It is unsustainable. What happens is new players get intimidated by such a massive grind and decide not to play.

I do not support this Epic Destiny revamp. I do not believe prestige classes should function like heroic classes. I do not like how twists of fate are being deleted. How many of the skills we use are being deleted and the destinies are being nerfed, level gated, power gated, and dumbed down to the point of uselessness. Sure they may contain a nugget - but why is magister being deleted? Why no spell crit or spell crit dmg in this new system? This is a further massive nerf to casters - especially warlocks who's dps is already god awful.

I believe that SSG has confused their mission and is going in the wrong direction with these massive proposed changes - The DDO candy machine functions fine today - adding new candy - such as Ilse of Dread, or Dragonlance to the existing game would make everyone happy.

But a massive revamp of the game just to add new levels to have us grind to make new levels and characters that will likely be WEAKER than we are presently, makes no sense from a gamer perspective, because as many have pointed out (SSG staff among them), the game lags with auras and extra effects - and this new Destiny system is based on auras and procs and extra effects -

it seems like this entire proposed redesign was cooked up by a financial department, not gamers for gamers.

[arminius]

<snip>

Can't upvote you but would if I could

[Pandjed]

I think, the current ED system is a steaming pile of dung. I know, many people have shoveled that dung into their living rooms, as it was either that or nothing, they started digging into it, sniffing it, rubbing it into their faces, even eating it for years, until they convinced themselves that this is the best thing ever, but they also may have forgot, that they have an appartment in a flat without balconry or access to the garden below, and therefore that "wonderful" dung is absolutely useless... in addition that it's the kind of thing that actually poison the flowers and vegetables instead.
I get it, having your dung castles destroyed can be upsetting, but you see... those, who don't have that intimate and playful relationship with it don't get the point and just see a pile of dung.

OK, if I still have you, then let's start to examine why the old ED-system is so bad.
1.) Total tack-on. No organic shift, you get 20, you get all. In several cases, you suddenly played the character entirely different the moment you could slap your ED on it.
2.) Disharmony with heroic levels. How does leveling work in heroics? You get to spend points each level you earn in increments. With old ED, you suddenly had a second set of levels that only worked one.
3.) Low epic levels were mostly a borefest, because levels 20-25 usually didn't matter at all in the power-scaling aside some passive bonuses.
4.) Twists are a nice idea, but the implementation was crass and created a number of things too good to pass off in any destiny (meld, cocoon, dance of flowers, martial hymn, energy burst, etc.) and created many similar builds.
5.) New player unlock experience. Leveling destinies outside your build was a pain, not doing it wasn't smart though, because of the destiny feats and the fate points. Ever had the pleasure of thinking: "Why didn't I have a primal character first, I need cocoooooooooooooon!"



New system seems much more like a organic development of the character (though I'd love epic classes instead, but I knew it won't happen): You continue to spend AP (just dubbed destiny points) and as long as there is some clean-up at the lower quests later on to match better the power level of the characters (maybe also opening up changes like being able to run heroic reaper as epic character +2 levels above base level or a bonus to XP as an epic character in heroic 19-20 quests, etc.), it should be good. But first we need the power level and that's what previews are for.

The charge-mechanic may need some mastery, but that's just for players that actually want to achieve something and should bring the player skills. Even when ignoring charges mostly, there are still ways to make use of them by passive enhancements (I mean, SD building up charges via sneak attack and making more damage with sneak attacks while having those? Easy enough, no?).

For now, I'm just happy that fate points have at least a minor bonus for each, and after some rebalancing, I can even see getting more of the trees than with the old system at 20th level, just because of the number of destiny points I get by unlocking them and the fact that I can combine stuff now.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

Keep in mind too - this ED change sets the framework for level increase - say to lvl 35. ALL existing gear become obsolete TR gear then - and all endgame raid gearsets must be re-farmed.

This particular strategy is what killed SWToR as an MMO - yes, SWToR is still around, but no where near where they were for the first few years - SWToR launched with hundreds of servers - EA blasted the game apart with nerfs, updates, redesigns, and level cap increases. Today they have 2 servers, down from hundreds. It is a ghost of a game.

In my opinion SSG would do well to avoid taking any pages out of EA's book - Blizzard is a much better example. They just did a level crunch in WoW and removed levels.

Give us classic modules - negotiate for Dragonlance - add more to the Forgotten Realms, How about 'Curse of the Azure Bonds' a fantastic module. 'Expedition to the Barrier Peaks' the best module of all time!

Don't waste precious time and resources fixing things that are not broke - I do not wish to re-grind for gear, skills, or abilities I already earned.

But I am not new to this - I know that there will be tweaks based on what we the players say but the money has already been spent and the system already made and it will be implimented. Such is the problem with being a small developer with limited resources. I just hope SSG listens to our feedback - really listens. I'm very worried about this game that I love.

People talk about the old enhancement system being updated - Turbine understood that the old system needed to be reworked and made the system we have today - but it is not perfect. I believe they did a better job on their second go with their ED system.

Why add to the grind for players who've been here for 16 years - why not make the heroic system like the present ED system with karma and give us all our heroic skills @ lvl 1? Why level gate us at all ? We are TR'd -we've already earned this stuff - our gear is already level gated -

[TFerguson]

There is nothing in the new system that a new player who starts in Epics after these changes could not earn. Furthermore, after these changes you will not need Karma to Epic Reincarnate, which will make the Epic Reincarnation process more streamlined than it was before, as you will not be forced to play in an off-destiny. You will also not need to level up a destiny to unlock different destinies, as all trees will be unlocked for you at level 20.

What percentage of the game is new?

Why build the game for nobody?

[hit_fido]

It's pretty clear it is going to be a power nerf in the early 20's for players with fully fleshed out ED's. However those levels are a small part of the overall DDO experience.

It's a massive degradation of character performance for 20 up to at least 26, arguably until 29; you can't even take the tier 5 abilities until level 30 and those will be the more powerful abilities you might have previously had available at 20.

Low/mid epics are a big part of epic TR and a big part of iconic character leveling. Both are going to suffer the hit to performance.

[anangel22]

Understanding the why is important. This massive change to a system that is not broke, that is already fun, that provides players with skills and abilities that they love and use is for one reason: To set the framework for SSG to add more levels to DDO beyond level 30. That is it. The present game really only works up to lvl 30 - and lore wise this is accurate. For them to expand into MMO/Videogame land and, like WoW, add dozens and dozens of new levels for us to grind (With no point I might add) they need a new paradigm that will enable them to control the power creep.

Maybe. But never underestimate the power of somebody in charge having to show he just knows better. Ruined more than enough games, companies and franchises

[Lencrennis]

Maybe. But never underestimate the power of somebody in charge having to show he just knows better. Ruined more than enough games, companies and franchises

They're never as smart as they think they are.