U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Grandmaster of Flowers

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I twist serenity on my drow for the spell resist - but i do not play monks, nor do I want to. This new ED system without twists does not incentivize me, I cannot build what I like, what I want to create, and think is fun to play. So now what?

[diasho2]

This revamp does exactly what they wanted.. to neuter the players that had many TR lives along with eliminating cherry picking twists from multiple trees.

Good for the players that have done little investment into epic destinies, bad for the maxxed completionists.

Yep, all the players that have been playing, grinding, etc for over a decade get a big **** you, all those who play for the unique combat system get the same. We all get told to play the way the devs want and to have fun the way the devs want us to have fun.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Forgive my not reading everything yet.


Does my character need to be centered?
To use most of this.

Which parts require it?
Which parts just require defensively centered?

(But oh, how much more useful this tree would be if centered was not a requirement.)
(And besides.... SHOULDN'T epic level characters be able to do things beyond the abilities of normal, heroic characters?)

[Tuxedoman96]

2: Drifting Lotus needs work. The idea of a Stun that uses Stunning DCs in the Stun tree makes sense, it costing Ki in the Ki Tree makes sense, but its cooldown is far too restrictive and should be lowered considerably. My initial thoughts are to move it back to its original 15 second cooldown, but that may actually still be too long. 12 seconds would match Dire Charge, which is what we're trying to offer compelling replacements for that are far more easily accessible, so it feels right to aim for 12 and then reevaluate when we get more playtesting in.

I think reducing the cooldown on DL is a step in the right direction. It would also be nice if it could be separated from Ki Projection (from what I recall, you guys are trying to create a niche for ki casting; having two ki casting abilities share a multi-selector seems counter-intuitive).

3: No one likes Meditate, not even Monks. Although the original goal was for abilities in each tree to tie in to some sort of activation counter from the associated Heroic Class, it's entirely likely that Meditate itself will just get its entire charge system removed, and we can preemptively remove its charges from here as well. With that in mind, Wholeness of Spirit is returning to its base Ki Cost + Cooldown for activation.

Personally, I don't mind using meditations as a charge for Wholeness of Spirit. However, I think it should be an "either or" situation. Having Wholeness of Spirit both expend a meditation charge and have a 1-3 minute cooldown is too prohibitive. I'd either have it use meditation charges and have a short cooldown (like 3 to 6 seconds) to serve as a substitute for LoH or Healing Hands (and can therefore be used in burst in difficult battles), or have it return to what you have written above. I'd actually prefer the former, since oftentimes when I'm in a position where I'm forced to use the ability, I have to use it again very quickly afterwards anyways.

9: A Scattering of Petals is a fine and probably overpowered Epic Moment, but needs to be labeled as such (this tracks with our earlier revelation that we didn't realize players were so attached to the idea of an Epic Moment). It's the spiritual successor to Turn of the Tide, but it affects your allies AND debuffs your enemies, but without the Epic Moment label and the new visuals, it doesn't feel as striking as I was hoping. I'm probably going to be messing with the way the ability functions (likely by making it a cooldown rather than a Ki draining toggle) but otherwise I'm actually very confident in its power level.

Still sad to see EiN leave the tree

So, with all that said, we're still very much reading and anticipating your feedback, so please keep it coming. Thanks!

As always, thanks for listening to our feedback.

[Messiahspike]

Everything is Nothing is still slated to be in the ED System... just not in this tree. And yes, all Stuns in this tree grant Helplessness.

Why change the knockdown on Drifting lotus to Stun? As I understand it knockdown works on constructs and undead, some of the most common mobs you'll run into. will this new drifting lotus stun work on them? if not you're destroying the monk. it's literally the only class I play. I play solo for the majority of the time and I love being self sufficient as a monk and most of that comes from the amazing mix of skills in both the main class and the GMoF epic destiny.

Monk is not over-powered. If someone thinks they are... pleasing enlighten me with your build because I've run with sorcerers and warlocks and haven't even had a chance to touch a mob before they're nuked from orbit with some spells. I have most of the best monk gear in the game and on every single metric monk is blown away by more focused classes. I'm not playing the monk to be a DPS power house, or a healer or a tank. I'm playing because I love the unique mix of AOE skills, the stuns, the speed of running around a battle and dipping in and out and being a support character. And I love being able to solo the majority of quests by being a well rounded class with a little bit of everything because I'm a solitary bastard and I prefer it that way. Stop ruining the things that make the monk unique and fun

I have been a part of DDO for more than 10 years and other than the necessary classes to try to achieve completionist I only want to play monk. You've nerfed the class over and over again and i've stuck with it but if you destroy the class what's going to keep me coming back spending money on a game that seems to hate the monk class?

Speaking of... @Lynnabel, i'd appreciate a response to this...

I've seen several posts stating that in the past you've made comments that are disparaging of the monk class.

This one from Akoriv:
"I know that Lynnabel stated that Lynnabel wanted the monk removed an hates the class (post since removed after backlash I believe), but does that apply to all the dev team as well?"

and there's other in this thread that seem to point to you as having it out for the monk.

First of is this true? have you ever made a comment stating you hate or dislike the monk class?

If so, does your dislike of the class influence the directing that these changes are taking?

If any other Devs want to chime in that'd be great too.

Looking at the comments in this thread, it seems like all of these proposed changes are making all the people who love the monk seriously upset. I know because I'm one of them. i've never participated in the forums before, but I felt I needed to speak up after seeing these proposed changes. So why make changes that everyone seems to feel will ruin the class?

I'm not even talking about the dire charge or frog or twists of fate that many are upset over. those are separate issues. I'm talking about the fundamental changes to the GMoF tree like removing EIN, nerfing drifting lotus and turning GMoF into something that seems like it's more for someone who wants a splash of monk rather than a pure monk. I'm fine with adding things for people who want a splash of monk, but this is *the* monk tree. It should be monk centric rather than an afterthought epic destiny.

[Lynnabel]

First of is this true? have you ever made a comment stating you hate or dislike the monk class?

If so, does your dislike of the class influence the directing that these changes are taking?

I really love the Monk class, so I'm not really sure why people say stuff like that.

When I first started DDO it was the class I was most excited to play. My second life ever on my main was a monk, and the following life was a terrible fvs/ranger/monk centered-with-shortswords tempest build that I probably should have left on the drawing board :P The point being, I really do love Monk as a class and want to make Gmof as cool as it can be.

Off the record a little, Monk is actually the class I've most wanted to overhaul for quite some time. I have a lot of big plans (including the return of Water Walking and an improved, expanded, and way cooler combo system) but sadly I've just not had the time to fit the pass in.

Back on track, it sounds like we've addressed a lot of your concerns in this feedback post. I'm going to try to get it added to the start of the thread somehow so it's easier to find.

[Nickodeamous]

I really love the Monk class, so I'm not really sure why people say stuff like that.

When I first started DDO it was the class I was most excited to play. My second life ever on my main was a monk, and the following life was a terrible fvs/ranger/monk centered-with-shortswords tempest build that I probably should have left on the drawing board :P The point being, I really do love Monk as a class and want to make Gmof as cool as it can be.

Off the record a little, Monk is actually the class I've most wanted to overhaul for quite some time. I have a lot of big plans (including the return of Water Walking and an improved, expanded, and way cooler combo system) but sadly I've just not had the time to fit the pass in.

Back on track, it sounds like we've addressed a lot of your concerns in this feedback post. I'm going to try to get it added to the start of the thread somehow so it's easier to find.

Hey Lynnabel,

Hope all is well. Lots of changes to manage huh? Anyway, I too am a die hard monk player, and I echo the fact that GMOF must be a monk destiny first and foremost and a splash destiny as a second thought. I saw your long list of fixes to help with this and replied to you with my thoughts. Thank you for that!

I wanted to comment on your potential monk pass. Given that we are getting/maybe getting this builder spender destiny system, I'd like to mention or suggest that if you change the combos, which I hardly use now, could you add these to the list of the builders? Any Ki attack really, such as stun, QP, etc. It seems like I need an extra hand at this point with the exuberant amount of buttons I'll have to push as a pure monk.

Also, glamor fists!!!.

Thanks,
Nico

[HuneyMunster]

I really love the Monk class, so I'm not really sure why people say stuff like that.

When I first started DDO it was the class I was most excited to play. My second life ever on my main was a monk, and the following life was a terrible fvs/ranger/monk centered-with-shortswords tempest build that I probably should have left on the drawing board :P The point being, I really do love Monk as a class and want to make Gmof as cool as it can be.

Off the record a little, Monk is actually the class I've most wanted to overhaul for quite some time. I have a lot of big plans (including the return of Water Walking and an improved, expanded, and way cooler combo system) but sadly I've just not had the time to fit the pass in.

Does this also include Ninja Spy as I've not seen anyone play one for a long time outside of occasional Shuriken thrower.

[Tyrande]

I really love the Monk class, so I'm not really sure why people say stuff like that.

When I first started DDO it was the class I was most excited to play. My second life ever on my main was a monk, and the following life was a terrible fvs/ranger/monk centered-with-shortswords tempest build that I probably should have left on the drawing board :P The point being, I really do love Monk as a class and want to make Gmof as cool as it can be.

Off the record a little, Monk is actually the class I've most wanted to overhaul for quite some time. I have a lot of big plans (including the return of Water Walking and an improved, expanded, and way cooler combo system) but sadly I've just not had the time to fit the pass in.

Back on track, it sounds like we've addressed a lot of your concerns in this feedback post. I'm going to try to get it added to the start of the thread somehow so it's easier to find.

As for the terrible 12FvS/6ranger/2monk build you had, is the new GMOF still supporting it? That build sounds like a part time healer, ranged DPS Moncheri?

How about the support for pure monk, but ranged DPS with shurikens with 10,000 stars? Why is it called 10,000 stars? Apparently it is not over 9000. Also, why is this using Bow animation?

[Messiahspike]

I really love the Monk class, so I'm not really sure why people say stuff like that.

When I first started DDO it was the class I was most excited to play. My second life ever on my main was a monk, and the following life was a terrible fvs/ranger/monk centered-with-shortswords tempest build that I probably should have left on the drawing board :P The point being, I really do love Monk as a class and want to make Gmof as cool as it can be.

Off the record a little, Monk is actually the class I've most wanted to overhaul for quite some time. I have a lot of big plans (including the return of Water Walking and an improved, expanded, and way cooler combo system) but sadly I've just not had the time to fit the pass in.

Back on track, it sounds like we've addressed a lot of your concerns in this feedback post. I'm going to try to get it added to the start of the thread somehow so it's easier to find.

Would like to first say thank you for addressing my concerns. I'm glad to hear that the hatred of the monk class is not something you actually have, and maybe this will clear up some of the misinformation regarding that.

Second, i'm glad to hear that you do love the monk because that gives me hope that even if this new system is a big change, at least you might be making changes that will benefit the monk instead of nerfing it. There are not many D&D video games that allow you to play as a monk (pathfinder is the only one I know of) and it doesn't have the same hands on feel that DDO does so it would be a shame to strip everything that's fun about the monk away to make it an afterthought. I will take a look at the link you included and hopefully it address most of what concerns me. I do like that you plan on making the combo system better (at some point down the road I'm assuming) because running into a mob and letting loose with a string of attacks that flow well together is what makes the monk fun.

I will look forward with cautious optimism to the new system knowing that you're trying to keep the monk class a fun and exciting one to play.

[Vish]

I’m going start chanting the heart sutra for you folks

Some of you might actually look it up and read it

Then you might, might, have a taste of emptiness

And realize EIN is a monk thing
And should stay a monk thing

You’re putting in bard?
Pray tell

[SpardaX]

Does this also include Ninja Spy as I've not seen anyone play one for a long time outside of occasional Shuriken thrower.

What even constitutes "Playing a ninja spy" anymore. Long gone are the days you picked one or the other. If you have 39 points in Henshin and 41 points in Ninja Spy are you playing a Ninja Spy? What's the percentage minimum you need?

[Paisheng]

I’m going start chanting the heart sutra for you folks

Some of you might actually look it up and read it

Then you might, might, have a taste of emptiness

And realize EIN is a monk thing
And should stay a monk thing

You’re putting in bard?
Pray tell

EIN is most definitely an awesome GMOF epic moment that is already loved and appreciated by monks and even others.

I'm not sure why there has to be an either/or moment here between EIN and Cutting the Cords of Fate (or whatever they name it) for Bard. Do both. Cutting cords of fate could have a different save for monsters and different graphics but be essentially the same. This is a win - win.

Don't take away something so valued and enjoyed (and now not til level 30) -- something already working, balanced by previous update -- and the players/customers love. Add and create to Fatesinger destiny and keep EIN for monks too. Move Scattering of Petals to level 4 and balance that buff/debuff accordingly.

Thank you for entertaining our pleas.....with please

[Arvess]

It's been great watching the devs discuss the changes and get on the forums to discuss feedback and further iterations. I think the proposed changes to GMoF is headed in a good direction overall.

I would like to see something for Ninja Spy as well. Who knows when that will get a pass and its virtually useless in reaper despite it being my favorite tree.

A lot of people don't like monks because of the button mashing but those who do generally like that style of play. I cycle through a lot of attack combos. I love the callenges of setting up dark monk debuffs and getting to execute them. I tested out low level builders with Drifting Lotus and it sucked. I spent most of my rotation either charging or staying charged. As a dark monk, i have other things to do. :P As i rotate through falconry, monk, then GMoF attacks, I generally press a button on every attack and maybe that stretches out to 3 seconds.

When GMoF first came out it needed like 50 charges to fire off Everything is nothing. If you were in a good party, you didn't have a real chance to build that many charges and most of the time I blew it on trash because i was going to step through a portal. Whenever i needed it, it wasn't charged. Monks already have several charging mechanics in play. They need to charge ki. They need to charge combos for finishers. I don't think adding another charging mechanic is that appealing.

Maybe if you allow monk stances to lengthen the timer of the charges. Also, it would be good if finishers add a charge and maybe the elemental attack (eagle claw, unbalancing strike) have a % chance to gain a charge.

[Kielbasa]

It's been great watching the devs discuss the changes and get on the forums to discuss feedback and further iterations. I think the proposed changes to GMoF is headed in a good direction overall.

I would like to see something for Ninja Spy as well. Who knows when that will get a pass and its virtually useless in reaper despite it being my favorite tree.

A lot of people don't like monks because of the button mashing but those who do generally like that style of play. I cycle through a lot of attack combos. I love the callenges of setting up dark monk debuffs and getting to execute them. I tested out low level builders with Drifting Lotus and it sucked. I spent most of my rotation either charging or staying charged. As a dark monk, i have other things to do. :P As i rotate through falconry, monk, then GMoF attacks, I generally press a button on every attack and maybe that stretches out to 3 seconds.

When GMoF first came out it needed like 50 charges to fire off Everything is nothing. If you were in a good party, you didn't have a real chance to build that many charges and most of the time I blew it on trash because i was going to step through a portal. Whenever i needed it, it wasn't charged. Monks already have several charging mechanics in play. They need to charge ki. They need to charge combos for finishers. I don't think adding another charging mechanic is that appealing.

Maybe if you allow monk stances to lengthen the timer of the charges. Also, it would be good if finishers add a charge and maybe the elemental attack (eagle claw, unbalancing strike) have a % chance to gain a charge.

You're absolutely right the Monk or at least mostly monk centered destiny does not need another builder spender combo in it due to that mechanic already being so heavily entrenched in the core class abilities due to finishers. There are only so many buttons you can mash over a given time period. Adding the additional charge up mechanism to drifting lotus compared to how the skill works on live is just a nerf not an improvement. The universal cool down and the fact that you can only load a couple skills ahead in your finisher rotation already makes monks a chore to play this coming from someone who loves the class. And you have the anything you touch ruins your preloaded finisher ugghhh. The class needs a few quality of life fixes similar to barbarians/bears and how you are too enraged to do x, y, and z.

[DocHawkeye]

This is...

gross incompetence.

There is literally no other word for this. If this goes live in this form, and I have never seen any reason to suspect otherwise, it will probably push me out of gaming completely. I can't start again, I have no interest in other products, and I'll probably even sell of my gaming rig because why the hell not, I can play old emulator stuff on my mini PC.

There was a joke awhile back how the current devs had it in for any of the older premium classes.

It's not a joke any more.