U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Grandmaster of Flowers

[Monkey_Archer]

This revamp does exactly what they wanted.. to neuter the players that had many TR lives along with eliminating cherry picking twists from multiple trees.

Good for the players that have done little investment into epic destinies, bad for the maxxed completionists.

I'd say its the opposite. Previously having all epic past lives gave 12 fate points, ie enough to go from 4-1-1-1 to 4-3-1-1-1, roughly a free tier 3 twist. The new system grants 16 fate points (~5 destiny points) which can give an entire tier of enhancements. IE, if you have T5+T2 then epic past lives give you 5 points to spend in the entire T3 row, rather than just one tier 3 ability to twist.

[Cernunan]

I'd say its the opposite. Previously having all epic past lives gave 12 fate points, ie enough to go from 4-1-1-1 to 4-3-1-1-1, roughly a free tier 3 twist. The new system grants 16 fate points (~5 destiny points) which can give an entire tier of enhancements. IE, if you have T5+T2 then epic past lives give you 5 points to spend in the entire T3 row, rather than just one tier 3 ability to twist.

Ecxept they are removing most of the abilities you would want to take, while the remaining abilities are gutted.

Having a lot of points to spend in lots of less optimal abilities is not an improvement

[Matuse]

I find it amusing that people are complaining about nerfed GMoF by mentioning current feats that have nothing to do with GMoF.

[droid327]

Ki Projection: What exactly does "attacks replaced" mean? Do they still carry the usual on-hit effects? Do they scale on MP/RP, or on Force spellpower, or not at all? Do they still get bonuses like Deadly, Trance, mainstat-to-dmg, etc., or is it just a flat 20d6+120 Force damage? Can it crit, and if so does it inherit your weapon's crit profile?

I can see this either being grossly OP, where you can constantly keep up a barrage of Force-typed (ie DR breaking, MRR ignoring) damage with insane numbers (especially in early Epic where your weapon damage is less), or a total waste of time that completely nerfs your DPS because it doesnt scale like your actual weapon damage does.

Wholeness seems strong for a T2, though I guess the long CD offsets that.

[Eme]

Everything is Nothing is still slated to be in the ED System... just not in this tree. And yes, all Stuns in this tree grant Helplessness.

oh well, it was a fun game while it lasted. Bye.

[Nickodeamous]

oh well, it was a fun game while it lasted. Bye.

I wonder though...Lyn mentions the ED system where EIN is removed. This to me is starting to signify that this is no longer and epic destiny feat, which to me sounds like they are moving it to maybe Legendary Destiny feat system, in which monks can get it back...

It just sucks that you cant use it until who knows when...

[Lynnabel]

Ki Projection: What exactly does "attacks replaced" mean? Do they still carry the usual on-hit effects? Do they scale on MP/RP, or on Force spellpower, or not at all? Do they still get bonuses like Deadly, Trance, mainstat-to-dmg, etc., or is it just a flat 20d6+120 Force damage? Can it crit, and if so does it inherit your weapon's crit profile?

I can see this either being grossly OP, where you can constantly keep up a barrage of Force-typed (ie DR breaking, MRR ignoring) damage with insane numbers (especially in early Epic where your weapon damage is less), or a total waste of time that completely nerfs your DPS because it doesnt scale like your actual weapon damage does.

Wholeness seems strong for a T2, though I guess the long CD offsets that.

You physically adopt the stance of a warlock and blast using your own version of eldritch blast, but the force damage scales with melee power. Your weapons do not apply to these, as they are spells, similarly to how weapon effects do not apply to warlock blasts.

[elvesunited]

Grandmaster seems scattered. A lot of abilities seem like they aren't even meant for monks but for characters that would like to pretend their monks for a while. And there are abilities that make no sense. why switch from melee/ranged power to force spellpower? I think a monk is better off going fury of the wild and splashing a few items of Grandmaster.

Tier 1:
Serenity: What possible value is fighting with handwraps if you don't have the razorclaw or monk abilities to back it up? Also what do monks get from the Grandmaster of Flowers mantle?
Bring into Focus: 2-12 Ki points and temporary spell resistance? No attack? ( spell resistance being worthless outide normal diff )
Lily Petal: monk's need force spellpower? this used to work off melee/ranged power.

Tier 2:
Calm before Storms: repeat that spell resistance has problems
Ki Projection: For the melee monk who wants to periodically be a distance caster
hail of blows: significantly weaker than it used to be

Tier 4:
Perfection of Body/mind/soul: no fail on 1. But no bonus to the actual save.

Tier 5:
imposing force: This quickly takes your Ki to zero for a full minute. Since monks rely on Ki for combat and special abilities is that worth the effects?
Balanced Attacks: weaker than Tier 1 ability. why is that?

[Monkey_Archer]

Grandmaster seems scattered. A lot of abilities seem like they aren't even meant for monks but for characters that would like to pretend their monks for a while. And there are abilities that make no sense. why switch from melee/ranged power to force spellpower? I think a monk is better off going fury of the wild and splashing a few items of Grandmaster.

...or LD for direcharge.

GMOF seems to be meant for non-monks or light monk splash builds that want to buff/debuff for their party since they have nothing better to spend ki on. Essentially Bard-lite. Besides, bards are basically the new monks anyway: higher dps, better class based cc, higher defenses due to armor, no need to manage ki, they even get healing, not to mention EIN is apparently moving to fatesinger...

[HastyPudding]

I was just messing about with the new stuff and I was dealing 3-6k damage per hit with Ki Projection on a spellsinger bard with level 15-25 spellcasting gear on and low melee power. That's miles ahead of what a warlock can do even when well-geared. And this is 90% sustainable if you had passive ki regen and whatnot. I didn't get many crits, but then I guess that scales with force crit chance? You also move really slow while firing it.

Also, there's nothing that useful to a ki caster type in tier 3-5 other than more ki and some defenses.

[Nickodeamous]

... not to mention EIN is apparently moving to fatesinger...

Well that makes total sense...if this is true, then the monk class is basically an afterthought. Seems like GMOF has been ruined and turned into a splash only destiny. Everything unique about monks has been parsed out and essentially made impossible to attain. This makes me sick honestly.

Lynnabel, dont kill my monk. Some people still play them...but the changes that are mentioned will devastate the class.

Making +15 MRR a capstone and taking away EIN is pure garbage. I am still in disbelief.

Nico

[Lynnabel]

And there are abilities that make no sense. why switch from melee/ranged power to force spellpower?

Quick reply before I sign off for the night - argh, this is my fault! All of the gmof stuff force is scaling off Melee Power (200%) on Lamannia right now and I must have forgotten to change the internal notes. The tooltips and in-game experience are definitely using Melee Power (to match Henshin). I'll ping people in the morning about getting these notes corrected, apologies.

[J1NG]

Bugs

Two Weapon Defense and the Improved MRR Cap increase don't stack. This means if you take one (The Feat) you have little to no reason for the T5 Destiny, because at most you get is +5 more at the moment.

Mediate doesn't increase charges or regenerates them over time.

After using Ki Projection, movement speed is reduced dramatically if you were attacking with a blast as the effect fades (this results in being unable to jump again after a leap, and sliding around instead of running), can be reset by not doing anything once a new Ki Projection is used when it fades. Does not apply localised blast or stun effect on triggering with 3 charges or more.

J1NG

[droid327]

You physically adopt the stance of a warlock and blast using your own version of eldritch blast, but the force damage scales with melee power. Your weapons do not apply to these, as they are spells, similarly to how weapon effects do not apply to warlock blasts.

Ahh OK...then that might create some interesting synergies with "on force/offensive spell casting", then, like in AoV or Cerulean Wave

Its about 190 average damage at L20, scaling 200% MP if I assume correctly, but then it cant crit if it doesnt scale on Force power and doesnt inherit weapon attributes, so then it only scales on MP (and CL)...and having only one scalar is usually a recipe for it not being very good by endgame, though someone will have to actually try it out in practice since I dont have a Centered character to test it with

[pjstechie]

I don't understand what place this destiny is supposed to occupy in the overall scheme of destinies.

first off, the mantle is terrible. a monk in this mantle vs dreadnought gets +1W vs terror, a DoT. This mantle needs to do more for monks

back to the identity crisis: I suggest that grandmaster and dreadnought share the load of CC/tactics and debuffs, but in different ways. Let grandmaster be the stunning tree with some debuffs around monster defenses and let LD be sunders/trips with debuffs around monster offense.

to this end:
1) add a terror like debuff to the grandmaster mantle that reduces prr and mrrr
2) move dire charge to grandmaster
3) move the vorpal knockdown to LD

Also, as an aside to dire charge and mass frog - these are really popular feats, with good reason. consider making them T4 abilities instead of tier 5 to allow more access to them as this is still a higher cost than what they are now.

[Codect]

Everything is Nothing is still slated to be in the ED System... just not in this tree. And yes, all Stuns in this tree grant Helplessness.

Everything is Nothing is still slated to be in the ED System... just not in this tree.

just not in this tree.

butwhy.gif

EiN was the iconic ability of the monk tree and now it goes somewhere else?

[LurkingVeteran]

Thanks for the update.

Some thoughts:
Drifting lotus was a really cool move, I'm not sure completely changing it is a good idea. The KD was fun and putting it on a longer CD means you will use it less, which is also less fun. If the KD was too long, just reduce its duration.

As I understand it, anybody can put points in T1s, which means all characters will pick up Serenity because movement speed is king of clear times (that and AoE burst).

Who is supposed to use the spell power scaling abilities? Is this purely for casters?

Because spell-power scaling hybrid abilities have some fundamental problems as you know:
1) It's difficult to gear for both MP and SP
2) Magic melee abilities tend not to crit at all, and as this is often neglected during balancing they end up underpowered.
3) If they crit using spell crit, you cannot build for spell crit on a melee character without heavy sacrifices (LGS caster set, Legendary feat).

You changed Henshin to MP for precisely these reasons, of course that didn't work well either due to 2) and the subsequent nerf on on henshin MP.

I really hope you find a way to fix spell power scaling abilities and hybrids though. As it stands, it's about one par with heroic spells on non-tainted creatures, so only worth using on them. It also has a 6s CD and is a single target ability. The AoE version has 25s CD. Use of these on a caster class will be quite niche.

As for the projection abilities, if it uses warlock animations, can you fix also the terrible wind-up delay on warlock attacks? :-)

[mikarddo]

As I understand it, anybody can put points in T1s, which means all characters will pick up Serenity because movement speed is king of clear times (that and AoE burst).

I rather doubt that. With the 3 tree limit I doubt many builds will have room for GMoF and Serenity just for the extra movement speed. Say LD for Dire Charge, Fury for Adrenalines and PA for Cocoon or whatever mix you prefer. Sure, some will pick up Serenity but I dont see it becoming meta due to the opportunity cost involved.

[LurkingVeteran]

I rather doubt that. With the 3 tree limit I doubt many builds will have room for GMoF and Serenity just for the extra movement speed. Say LD for Dire Charge, Fury for Adrenalines and PA for Cocoon or whatever mix you prefer. Sure, some will pick up Serenity but I dont see it becoming meta due to the opportunity cost involved.

I must have missed the 3 tree limit.

[leesun]

The transition of Dire Charge and Mass Frog - I actually agree with the move. Those two abilities are undeniably potent, and by moving them to EDs it will free up 1-2 feats (depending on class/build) as well as promote build diversification. This said it is also my belief that these two abilities have become so prominent due to mob power-creep. A damage overhaul, for both pc and npc, may be prudent at some point.

The "removal" of Some-things are Nothing - This one left a bad taste. GMoF's signature ability. Functionally it was a slightly better mass frog. Both targets up to 6 enemies, both effectively removes them, but STaN has that six second paralyze. I suppose that even if it were nerffed.... again.... to be in line with mass frog then it would be a bit tacky to have tier 5 iconic destiny abilities doing the same thing. Given that

Everything is Nothing is still slated to be in the ED System...

maybe it will be some feat tied to EDs post lvl30 or something. If the rumor is true, and it is being moved to fatesinger then...

A Scattering of Petals - This is a straight buff, but really? This is the big flashy tier 5 ability?

Drifting Lotus - No more Knockdown? It's just a cleave? Stuns don't work on undead, nor on constructs. Shadowdancer give evasion, improved evasion if the feat is already present, and if you already had that then you draw less agro. What if Drifting Lotus had something like: If you have the Spring Attack feat then the target(s) are knocked down instead. To be completely honest all of the direct/indirect damage nerfs the monks have received over the years didn't bother me too much, barring the duality handwrap one, because I don't consider the shintao monk to be a melee dps 1st kind of thing. I always considered it a mobile utility support. Dive the ranged/caster backlines and CC them. Kukan-do or jade tomb a champ/reaper. Knock down groups of enemies to help keep the squishier peeps safe. And if a quest gives insta-alert due to janky dungeon design, there are a "few", then I can fall back on STaN to bring it down.

odds and ends - I like higher DCs. I'm not too bothered by the reduced melee power ONLY because it is across the board amongst the EDs. I do like the increase in mrr. I like having balanced strikes from old//current Primal.

All in all - The buffs, with the exception of getting no mercy which I dig a heck of a lot, are just meh. The things that were removed//edited really hurt.

New Trees
One of the major changes as a part of this refactor is that we can begin releasing entirely new Epic Destiny trees. Our goal is to end up with 12 at the start, and then slowly start rolling out more, at least until we can get up to 15, with each tree loosely corresponding to a heroic class.

As is, why would a Shintao Monk pick this as their "main" ED tree over Legendary Dreadnaught?


[EDIT] A bit off topic, but the whirling steel strike grant of proposed gmof gave me an idea. What about a new universal tree based on Oriental Adventures? Blade dancer, Iaijutsu Master or Mirumoto Niten Master. Would focus on bastard sword given that both bastard swords and katana are 1d10 19-20 x2. Could come with a pack, mini-expansion or full expansion. Cosmetics with aforementioned packaging would be a katana.