U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Shadowdancer

[LightBear]

Howdy friends! Happy Thursday morning

Good day to you as well.

What happened to Shadow Form and Dark Imbuement?

My build can be found here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...The-Inquisitor

And am afraid it will be rendered useless.
Its a paladin inquisitor in shadow form.... get out of my way Gnomon there is a Gnome in town who's shadow is taller then yours.

[Bobby88888]

For rogues it's hard to get a usable AC so Nightshield is better and the only clickies for it are on armors. Nightshield, unless it's been changed blocks Darkfire that Forgewraiths have. I'm not sure what other monsters have it, but getting hit with it can be a one shot.

I did not know that about Nightshield, good to know. Thank you.
My perspective on AC and rogues might be a bit skewed since my mechanic and assassin both also moonlighted as raid tanks, but I concede that most rogues probably don't care about AC too much.
With Nightshield actually bringing something to the table Shield doesn't then the ability is fine. I will still skip due to threat modifiers (I dislike both increasers and reducers for the record, not just reducers) but I also don't need the perm Nightshield so I don't see it as a great loss.

[cmecu]

Its already been addressed many times, but ill say something too, Weird is in a weird place .. This tree is more focused for that sneaky melee rogue.. Weird requires a caster of some type, and a high level one at that. So a rogue cant even splash in some caster levels. If you need to have Weird in this tree, it should be in Tier 1 or Tier 2, so a caster doesnt have to go way up a melee tree.

[salmag]

Its already been addressed many times, but ill say something too, Weird is in a weird place .. This tree is more focused for that sneaky melee rogue.. Weird requires a caster of some type, and a high level one at that. So a rogue cant even splash in some caster levels. If you need to have Weird in this tree, it should be in Tier 1 or Tier 2, so a caster doesnt have to go way up a melee tree.

Weird belongs in the Wizard/Sorcerer 9th level spell book.

It should NOT be in a tier 5 Melee Epic Destiny. Heck, It should not be ANYWHERE in MELEE Epic Destiny, period.

That alone makes this tree one big FAILURE. You are taking away a useful T5 melee slot for a Wizard/Sorc spell that should've been in their Spell Lists when Feydark Illusionist was released.

The Devs honestly have 0 clue about their own game.

[Stravix]

Weird belongs in the Wizard/Sorcerer 9th level spell book.

It should NOT be in a tier 5 Melee Epic Destiny. Heck, It should not be ANYWHERE in MELEE Epic Destiny, period.

That alone makes this tree one big FAILURE. You are taking away a useful T5 melee slot for a Wizard/Sorc spell that should've been in their Spell Lists when Feydark Illusionist was released.

The Devs honestly have 0 clue about their own game.

I think weird is actually in a good spot, if they actually do what they want to with this tree, make it a tree that either a pure martial or a pure caster would want to be in

Currently, the caster side isn't up to snuff, and as such, that needs to be addressed, not the location of weird, IMO

[fabhpk]

Good morning! I have some thoughts I'd like to share.

Howdy friends! Happy Thursday morning

I. The problem is that this tree is half Arcane - and Meld doesn't do anything for that.

I have a instigation about this: should really this tree be half arcane? Isn't the plan to have a corresponding tree for each class and SD being the rogue tree? Why turn this into a half arcane thing just when you guys gave up keeping Primal an dual arcane/martial tree? At the very least each "Arcane" skill on this tree should be somehow used by a rogue. Personally I think having the rogue tree as half arcane is not a good ideia.

3: Sealed Soul needs to come back. It will mostly likely get added to the Mantle in Tier 2.

This fits the theme and is cool, as a freebie. I honestly didn't understand the strong response about the lack of this skill. I never understood the 2 point cost to select Sealed Soul or Spark of Life on the current ED trees. Death ward is a pretty ordinary buff, even on low heroic levels.

The T5 of this tree needs something that multiselects with Weird that uses your Assassinate in some cool, flashy way. It's unlikely to be a carbon copy of Consume (to my knowledge, that was bugged and had no actual DC) and I'd honestly rather build something new than reuse anything that wasn't 100% up to par. With that in mind, what if the new T5 was like an assassinate, but rather than an instakill, was a very effective boss debuff? This way a Rogue will have two ways of opening a fight from Stealth - versus trash, Assassinate. Versus a boss, this new attack. And someone who wasn't a rogue still gets to experience some of that gameplay by using this new from-stealth ability. If the boss debuff is punchy enough, that means that having at least one Shadowdancer in the party would make a considerable difference. My initual thoughts were to bring back the Physical vulnerability from the current Shadowdancer but turn it up to 11.

5: The Builders need shorter cooldowns to match the other trees at 6 seconds.

NICE STUFF!!! I'm happy that you changed the plans to let rogues use the "Weird" thing. It was very sad to have a top tier skill on the rogue tree that rogues wouldn't be able to use. I think some sort of debuff would be a nice substitute for stat damage in "Crippled with Shadows". Stat damage has been mostly useless for a long time now.

7: Whispers is currently nonfunctional and also quite controversial. In its place, I am considering some sort of alternative that uses your Bluff score to temporarily confuse or distract an enemy, and allowing this to be usable from Stealth. We want to add more tools to help stealthy players approach combat in different ways, and this feels like it could be an interesting tool to add to the toolbox.

I like this Bluff ideia, a "noisemaker skill" doesn't look very epic to me. The biggest problem with stealth gameplay is reapers, so even the best stealth play ability would have very limited use on reaper mode. Maybe something can temporarily turn a reaper tremorsense off?

So! There's obviously quite a lot more to do here, and there are things I didn't get to mention, but I'd love any additional feedback or new thoughts you all might have. I look forward to hearing from you!

Since we are losing Dire Charge, some sort of movement or gap closing skill would be awesome. The coolest of the cool would be something that makes the Shadowdancer jump between shadows and surprise the enemy, like Corvo's Blink skill from Dishonored. In DDO maybe that could be translated into some sort of Abundant Step with those shadowy animations we have on current SD tumbles...

[A-O]

Weird belongs in the Wizard/Sorcerer 9th level spell book.

It should NOT be in a tier 5 Melee Epic Destiny. Heck, It should not be ANYWHERE in MELEE Epic Destiny, period.

That alone makes this tree one big FAILURE. You are taking away a useful T5 melee slot for a Wizard/Sorc spell that should've been in their Spell Lists when Feydark Illusionist was released.

The Devs honestly have 0 clue about their own game.

You have no clue if you think another aoe instakill would be balanced for all sorcs/wizard to get.

And you have no clue if you think their goal with this tree is a "melee tree". Clearly they see this as an illusionist/melee hybrid tree.

[Tlorrd]

I think the idea of a hybrid tree is great in theory and yet very difficult to implement. I would request that you reconsider the direction of shadowdancer to stick with the original statement about ED revamps having the destiny's be more class centered.

From a rogue perspective, the Rogue 3 trees are vastly different between Assassin (melee TWF), Mechanic (ranged xbow), and Acrobat (melee THF). Thus Shadowdancer should have "goodies" for these three different playstyles with utility, stealth, and sabotage sprinkled in for all classes to benefit from. Trying to cram in arcane illusion bits here, just clutters the whole tree and gives it no unifying direction or principles.

Below are a few comments mainly from a mechanic's lens ...

Core Abilities

1. Retreat to the Shadows (level 20): You gain the Trapfinding feat if you did not have it already. Each core ability in this tree, including this one, grants +1 Epic bonus to all Spell DCs, +10 Melee Power, +6 Ranged Power, +5 Force Spellpower, and +5 Universal spell power.
2. Step Through Shadow (level 23): Activate this ability to conjure a door of pure Shadow, which can take you and your party members to the entrance of the current dungeon. Cooldown: 2 minutes.
3. The Darkest Luck (level 26): You gain the Evasion feat (normal Evasion rules apply). If you already have Evasion, you gain the Improved Evasion feat. If you already have Improved Evasion, you generate 25% less threat from all sources.

Consider adding Watchful Eye feat or bonuses to this tree rather than the one you have proposed to place as here seems more thematic. Awaiting the remaining cores to further comment.

Tier 1 (requires level 20):

• Stealthy: +1/2/3 Reflex Saving Throws, +2/4/6 Hide and Move Silently. Rank 3: You gain the Hide in Plane Sight feat.
• Cover of Darkness: +10/20/30% less threat from all sources. Rank 3: You gain the benefits of the Nightshield spell.
• Shadowdancer Builders: Select an ability that builds charges. Multiselector
  
  • Nightmare Lance: Arcane Builder: A lance of darkness extends from your fingers, impaling an enemy. They take 1d6+6 Force damage per Character level. The enemy must succeed on a (DC20 + highest of Int/Wis/Cha modifier + Illusion DC bonuses) will saving throw to avoid becoming blinded. On cast, this builds an Arcane Charge. Cooldown: 30/20/10 seconds. Activation Cost: 10 Spell Points.
  • Shrouding Shot: Martial Builder: Ranged Attack: +1/2/3W, you gain 1 Martial Charge. On a failed fortitude save (DC20 + Highest Ability Modifier + Assassinate bonus) the target is Blinded for 12 seconds. Cooldown: 12 Seconds.
  • Shrouding Strike: Martial Builder: Melee Attack: +1/2/3W, you gain 1 Martial Charge. On a failed fortitude save (DC20 + Highest Ability Modifier + Assassinate bonus) the target is Blinded for 12 seconds. Cooldown: 12 Seconds.
• Assassinate: +2/4/6 Assassinate DCs. Rank 3: On Sneak Attack: 10% chance to gain 1 Martial Charge.
• Technician: +2/4/6 to Search, Spot, Disable Device, and Open Lock. Rank 3: If you have the Nimble Fingers feat, you gain +1 Sneak Attack Dice.

Using Assassinate bonuses for Shrouding shot does not fit thematically. Consider the DC based off your disable device skill, i.e. Shrouding Shot: Ranged attack that you attach a small smoke bomb to your bolt/arrow/etc that upon hits may blind your target on a failed Fortitude save (DC disable device skill)

Tier 2 (requires level 20):

• Long Shadows: Each Martial Charge now grants +1 Sneak Attack Dice. You no longer automatically fail Reflex saving throws when you roll a natural 1.
• Sleight of Hand: +3/6/10% Offhand Strike Chance, +2/4/6 Bluff.
• Shadowform: Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle. +10/20/30% Enhancement bonus to Movement Speed, and can Sneak +20/35/50% faster (this will not stack with other enhancements that grant a permanent bonus to movement speed while sneaking). Your attacks gain Ghost Touch, and may bypass the Incorporeality of monsters.
• Meld into Darkness: Martial Spender: You gain 10% uncapped Dodge per Martial Charge for 10/15/20 seconds. Cooldown: 15 seconds.
• Lithe: +2/4/6 Reflex Saving Throws, Armor Class, and Light Armor Max Dex Bonus. +3/6/10 Force and Universal Spellpower.

Why does Shadowform need to have 3 ranks? Can you just change it costing 2 points or even 1 point and grant the movement speed and sneak speed at max level (the sneak speed is still lower than previous old iterations). Long shadows seems great btw!

Tier 3 (requires level 23):

• Depths of Darkness: Your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle grants +1/2/3 Sneak Attack Dice and +1/2/3 Spell Penetration.
• Crippled with Shadows: You gain the Crippling Strike feat. If you already have this feat, it will deal Constitution Damage on each hit instead of Strength. +1 Martial Charge cap
• Grim Precision: You bypass 5/10/15% enemy fortification and 1/2/3% enemy dodge.
• Shadowdancer Spell Focus: Select a Spell School to Specialize in. Multiselector:
  
  • Illusion: +1/2/3 Illusion Spell DCs.
  • Necromancy: +1/2/3 Necromancy Spell DCs.
  • Abjuration: +1/2/3 Abjuration DCs.
  • Enchantment: +1/2/3 Enchantment Spell DCs.
• Whispers: Create an Illusory Shadow that acts as a Noisemaker trap. Cooldown: 60/50/40 Seconds.

Crippled with shadows changing to Con damage seems like it could be useful, but can you comment on the mechanics of stat damage in epics? I seem to recall that stat damage recovers incredibly fast and doesn't go beyond 10? Whispers may seem like nice flavor, but when you've cut down sneak speed already, placing a noise trap seems time consuming for today's state of game play. Consider an epic trap (i.e. epic time bomb) or a different trap/alchemical flask.

Tier 4 (requires level 26):

• Pierce the Gloom: +1/2/3 to hit, to-hit for Sneak attacks, and to-hit while Flanking. Rank 3: You gain Immunity to Silence, Quell, and Blindness.
• Dark Armor: +2/4/6 Physical and Magical Resistance Rating, +3 Force and Universal Spellpower.
• Dark Mercy: Your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle now grants +5/10/15% damage versus the Helpless.
• The Drop: The First Blood feat now deals double its base damage, applies on harmful spellcasts, and its damage now scales with 100% of your Force Spellpower. Whenever you cast an Illusion spell, gain 1 Arcane Charge.
• Linger in the Dark: Tumbling while in Stealth now grants you a Martial Charge, +2 Sneak Attack Dice, +5 to hit and damage with Sneak Attacks, +5 Hide and Move Silently, and the ability to sneak with full movement speed for 20 seconds. This may only trigger once every 1 minute.

The drop makes no sense considering this is supposed to be threat avoidance tree granted in the Cores. Why would a rogue type be the first one to attack and grab all the aggro? For that matter why would an illusionist which focuses on crowd control and instakill want this? A force mage would like it, but just the same, this doesn't fit any thematic formulation of this tree.

Tier 5 (requires level 30):

• Improved Shadowform: Adds to your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle: Cloak yourself in magic and assume the form of an illusory Shadow. This form grants you 25% Incorporeality, +20 Hide and Move Silently, allows you to cast with a reduced movement speed penalty, and allows you to float as if you had Feather Fall. Also, when you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, removing its immunity to Sneak Attack for a short duration. You do not need to be in Shadowform for this to happen.
• Just a Taste: You have +1 Critical Multiplier on a roll of 19-20 with Bows, Thrown Weapons, Crossbows, and Finessable melee weapons.
• Weird: The Weird spell is added to your Spellbook as a level 9 spell if you are a Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, Wizard, or Favored Soul or a level 6 spell if you are an Artificer, Alchemist, Bard, or Warlock. Requires the ability to cast spells of those levels. Weird: A targeted foe and all nearby enemies are subject to a Phantasmal Killer effect, with a DC20 + highest of INT/WIS/CHA modifier + Illusion spell bonuses to prevent the death.
• Greater Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 to all Spell DCs
• Shadow Mastery: +1/2/3% dodge, +1/2/3 Assassinate DC, +2/4/6 Reflex Saving Throws. Rank 3: +1% Dodge Cap

[/QUOTE]

Improved shadowform helps with SA and some defenses. But Shadow Mastery comes at level 30? This seems more like a tier 2 or 3 type ability. Thus Weird, Greater spell focus, and Shadow Mastery are taking away 3 spots from a tier 5 list that could be much more satisfying for rogue types. As it is half the tree is not useful for a rogue at all. TBH I am a bit disappointed in the direction that Shadowdancer is moving to. Some of the best parts of shadowdancer have been removed and the little that is left has been level gated as well as shoved aside to make room for illusionists.

*the level gating of these tiers is going to make epic level advancement quite frustrating in the least.

[Montegue]

You have no clue if you think another aoe instakill would be balanced for all sorcs/wizard to get.

And you have no clue if you think their goal with this tree is a "melee tree". Clearly they see this as an illusionist/melee hybrid tree.

Um.

Gon' disagree. First of all, the illusion school has exactly two useful combative spells. Weird is a classic D&D 9th level spell! There's already a melee version of it for Barbarians, it's a crime there's not one for Wizards and Sorcs.

[DYWYPI]

Try being an injured assassin in a port city and you'll know what I mean. Especially a female one. I had to kill a few people before those dockland scum would leave me alone.

[...] Sealed Soul needs to come back. ...

I'd support the return of 'Sealed Soul' if it can be squeezed in again.

[...] Whispers is currently nonfunctional and also quite controversial. In its place, I am considering some sort of alternative that uses your Bluff score to temporarily confuse or distract an enemy, and allowing this to be usable from Stealth.

Well, that does confirm what I suspected; it wasn't actually functioning on Lamannia. I'm not really following what you are aiming for with regards to monster "distraction". Obviously the old 'Shadow Manipulation' was fun to use, and could be used 'tactically' for distraction purpose to some extent.

With Rogue [Assassin] Stealth play, its faulty chain reaction aggravation that's the problem, NOT spot or detection proximity, etc. Any Assassin worth their salt can easily approach a generic mob to Assassinate and not get detected and Spot range was never the main issue with the current faulty stealth mechanics (from the players perspective). Plus there are plenty of sealed doors that only "unlock after kills" in newer quests, which hinders avoidance of slaying everything standing.

The original description for 'Whisper(s)' seemed like it was trying to help the minuscule amount of people whom attempt hardcore "minimum kill discreet stealth runs", which ironically as well as going into Sneak, usually involves casting: Invisibility! Shadowdancer used to have 'Improved Invisibility'. Or perhaps the 'Whisper' idea was to have akin to a berserk 'invulnerable' Flaming Sphere on steroids (as Flaming Spheres move far too slow) as a Summoned monster style "aggravation magnet"?

[...] We want to add more tools to help stealthy players approach combat in different ways, and this feels like it could be an interesting tool to add to the toolbox. ...

Rogues already have plenty enough tools in their toolset with regards to approaching combat via "Stealth". Unless you meant, you want to allow something; such as a powerful no save; AoE Blinding, Fear, something when combat begins... Remember the stealthy still can't bypass 'Tremor Sense' anyway.

You'll probably have to describe your "Whisper substitute" aims in more detail so we're on a similar page; else you'd probably actually be better off not bothering with implementing a similar 'Whipser(s)' replacement ability. Generally it's the Assassin that sneaks far more than the other rogues.

[redoubt]

Okay, I'll take another tact here. How do I build my character in the new system? Currently I run:

20 rogue assassin. Shadow dancer.

I use consume when it is off timer and I approach a new group. I'll hit consume, go back into sneak and approach.
I use dire charge as a quick movement and also as a reprieve when overwhelmed.
I also use meld and improved uncanny dodge as oh **** buttons when the agro of something nasty turns on me.

For the rest, I assassinate a lot and single target dps.

For twists I have:
Marital hymn - self only buff - fatesinger
balanced attacks - CC - primal avatar
a dance with flower - dps buff - flowers
legendary tactics - buff for dire charge - LD
extra action boosts - buff for attack speed - LD

So with the changes, how do I do these things?

[Synthetic]

I think the new theme of the tree is great.

There's not enough for spell casters in the tree IMO, adding back the shadow puppet ability would help - an illusion based "domination".

It looks like my other complaint about the T5 not having enough for rogues, and the possible addition of a spender for casting sounds good too.

I would like a tree that helps out with traps as it's an interesting if under used rogue ability, but that could be combined with an artificer themed tree too.

Kudos on the theme of the tree and the responses from the developers to the feedback. I think the suggested changes will make the theme work.

It kind of reminds me of an arcane trickster - I could even see the monk warlock blast ability fitting in more thematically here than in that tree by just changing the idea to a magical sneak attack.

[salmag]

I think weird is actually in a good spot, if they actually do what they want to with this tree, make it a tree that either a pure martial or a pure caster would want to be in

Currently, the caster side isn't up to snuff, and as such, that needs to be addressed, not the location of weird, IMO

It fails very short in terms of caster oriented.

You have no clue if you think another aoe instakill would be balanced for all sorcs/wizard to get.

And you have no clue if you think their goal with this tree is a "melee tree". Clearly they see this as an illusionist/melee hybrid tree.

You might be correct in that I don't have a clue. However, my being here since the game's inception, I disagree with you.
I understand this game better than most (you included), having been here through ALL the changes (good and bad).

As for Balance, Wizards/Sorcerers in most fantasy genres start out weak and gain more power as they gain levels. That is their balance. If you raise your DCs high enough you will be proficient. Most people can only afford to raise their DCs high enough in 1 (maybe 2) schools. That is their balance. If you can raise your DCs high in every school, more power to you. You win DDO. But that's not reality for most people. There are clues everywhere.

Weird is a 9th (please re-read that) level spell for Illusionists. All schools should have a powerful AOE 9th level spell - Necromancy (Wail of the Banshee), Evoker (Meteor Swarm), Enchanter (Mass Hold Monster).

Your argument should be Illusion AND Conjuration both need them. Conjuration should have Storm of Vengeance (which is, by the way, a 9th level Conjuration spell, if you didn't have a clue about that) added as well to the spell list as well. It would give Conjurors a 3rd 9th level spell. This discussion is about Weird, though.

The Illusion school is sorely lacking in viable spells, period. I don't think you have clue about that. Weird would be a step in the right direction. They would still need more.

The Illusionist/Melee hybrid tree is Feydark Illusionist.

It seems to me, clueless as I might be, that casters are being spread thin through out this ED pass. You can only choose 3. Primal (to get Cocoon - which is a MUST for a squishy caster), leaves only 2. Draconic and Magus have yet to be released so we can't see those yet.

I used to be like you, a fanboi, back in the day. This group of Devs, with their changes (ie Nerfs) and refusal to budge, has changed my opinion. Now I am critical of changes they make. It's probably not fair to them, but they brought it on themselves. Some are good, others not so. I don't want to single anyone out, so they all get grouped together. Sorry.

I would like an Illusionist that can stand on his/her own without the need for EDs.

[Tlorrd]

Comments below from your friendly Mechanic.

From Lyn:
1: Meld is way too strong! This leads me to point 2.

2: Meld is way too weak! Hey, hey, put down those pitchforks, let me explain!! It feels like we were right on the money on making Meld a defensive martial spender. In practice, you trade Charges for defensive ability, and with careful play, you can even keep it up 100% of the time at a moderate magnitude. That's rad, and I don't want to change it. The problem is that this tree is half Arcane - and Meld doesn't do anything for that.

So, with that in mind, what if Meld had a lower dodge % per charge, but also took Arcane charges into account? Or what if you had two versions, one that only took Arcane and one that only took Martial? I think there's a lot of ways to slice this shadow, so to speak, so I'll be keeping a very close eye on further feedback.

2b: Meld will also likely be multiselected with an offensive version, most likely an adjusted form of the old Pierce the Gloom active mixed with some offensive firepower. It will need to be strong to compete with the defensive capabilities of Meld, but there's a lot of good design space still open that makes me confident we can find something that fits this niche.

Will await to see what new iteration of Meld you come up with. I think 30% beyond dodge cap is decent however you slice it.

3: Sealed Soul needs to come back. It will mostly likely get added to the Mantle in Tier 2.

That sounds good.

4: The T5 of this tree needs something that multiselects with Weird that uses your Assassinate in some cool, flashy way. It's unlikely to be a carbon copy of Consume (to my knowledge, that was bugged and had no actual DC) and I'd honestly rather build something new than reuse anything that wasn't 100% up to par. With that in mind, what if the new T5 was like an assassinate, but rather than an instakill, was a very effective boss debuff? This way a Rogue will have two ways of opening a fight from Stealth - versus trash, Assassinate. Versus a boss, this new attack. And someone who wasn't a rogue still gets to experience some of that gameplay by using this new from-stealth ability. If the boss debuff is punchy enough, that means that having at least one Shadowdancer in the party would make a considerable difference. My initual thoughts were to bring back the Physical vulnerability from the current Shadowdancer but turn it up to 11.

Please consider the 2 other Rogue trees that do not use Assassinate tactics in general. Maybe a new epic trap that uses disable device skill (thus also making it more palatable to take something like Nimble fingers which could then synergize with the tree in multiple ways. Also a boss debuff would be nice, and hopefully fitting for something one doesn't get till Tier 5/Level 30.

5: The Builders need shorter cooldowns to match the other trees at 6 seconds.

agreed

6: Force spellpower needs to be in a Legendary feat if we want it to be a serious consideration for a damage option. My initial thoughts are to place it with Sonic in Feywild, which also has the benefit of giving you Illusion DCs.

Agreed and in general I'd like to see Illusion hybrid moved elsewhere, maybe have 2 arcane destiny trees thus all facets of arcane can be accounted for rather than cramming illusion into this tree.

7: Whispers is currently nonfunctional and also quite controversial. In its place, I am considering some sort of alternative that uses your Bluff score to temporarily confuse or distract an enemy, and allowing this to be usable from Stealth. We want to add more tools to help stealthy players approach combat in different ways, and this feels like it could be an interesting tool to add to the toolbox.

As above, please consider besides bluff or in addition to bluff, some selector to account for the other two rogue trees. i.e. Bluff to confuse enemies, disable device trap/shot to confuse enemies, and when you tumble you set up confusion trap (yes, I know there is a tumble enhancement already, but this could add to that)

[A-O]

You might be correct in that I don't have a clue. However, my being here since the game's inception, I disagree with you.
I understand this game better than most (you included), having been here through ALL the changes (good and bad).

As for Balance, Wizards/Sorcerers in most fantasy genres start out weak and gain more power as they gain levels. That is their balance. If you raise your DCs high enough you will be proficient. Most people can only afford to raise their DCs high enough in 1 (maybe 2) schools. That is their balance. If you can raise your DCs high in every school, more power to you. You win DDO. But that's not reality for most people. There are clues everywhere.

Weird is a 9th (please re-read that) level spell for Illusionists. All schools should have a powerful AOE 9th level spell - Necromancy (Wail of the Banshee), Evoker (Meteor Swarm), Enchanter (Mass Hold Monster).

Your argument should be Illusion AND Conjuration both need them. Conjuration should have Storm of Vengeance (which is, by the way, a 9th level Conjuration spell, if you didn't have a clue about that) added as well to the spell list as well. It would give Conjurors a 3rd 9th level spell. This discussion is about Weird, though.

The Illusion school is sorely lacking in viable spells, period. I don't think you have clue about that. Weird would be a step in the right direction. They would still need more.

The Illusionist/Melee hybrid tree is Feydark Illusionist.

It seems to me, clueless as I might be, that casters are being spread thin through out this ED pass. You can only choose 3. Primal (to get Cocoon - which is a MUST for a squishy caster), leaves only 2. Draconic and Magus have yet to be released so we can't see those yet.

I used to be like you, a fanboi, back in the day. This group of Devs, with their changes (ie Nerfs) and refusal to budge, has changed my opinion. Now I am critical of changes they make. It's probably not fair to them, but they brought it on themselves. Some are good, others not so. I don't want to single anyone out, so they all get grouped together. Sorry.

I would like an Illusionist that can stand on his/her own without the need for EDs.

As if you being here since launch somehow gives you any more grasp over balance than someone who hasn't. Besides, I've been here since the 3day head start, so... Hell, I've been here since the stress-test in closed beta.

Weird being a core spell in DND doens't change the fact that this isn't DND, this is DDO. If you wanna complain about not having things that DND has, this should be the last place you look, frankly.

It'd be very easy to hit no-save DC on weird, Wail, Frog, and FoD, and now with them seemingly adding EIN in fatesinger (from the sound of it) that too. If you think having 4 AOE instakills with no-save or basically no-save DC along with single target instakills is balanced you're looking at balance from a very bad point of view. You are so focused on 'balance' between what's available in what schools, and not what players can do with what they get.

And it won't matter how much you want weird, SSG isn't putting it in. The entire FI lammania thread(s) made that very clear. And thank the balance gods for that.

Clearly SSG has now realized what any competent players said during FI Lammania - FI is useless as it stands for its intended purposes. Clearly they are now supplmeneting it with SD speccing. Bear in mind, this is what they said they would do (but not to that specificity). If you'd been here as long as you say, you'd already know all this. But clearly you are not as well-versed as you might think.

If were here since release through thick and thin, you'd know who I am. I've been very vocal and present on these forums for many years and changes over Lammania and patch cycles. And if you knew who I am, you'd know I'm anything but a "fan boi". It's just that I know game design, and I have experience from other games over a life time of gaming all genres. You have seemingly swapped from "all is positive", to "all is negative". I've judge changes on their merit. And honestly, anyone who thinks the current destiny system is anything but a hot jumbled mess of bad coding and design choices that have been quickly tacked on to get content out has no grasp of game design. Clearly the actual professionals (SSG) agree with that take which is why they're now dealing with design debt they've had for 8 years.

[Monkey_Archer]

Regarding AOE instakills, I think more builds having access to these can be a good thing. The issue will be the DC system and (possible?) removal of epic ward letting no-fail DCs become common. Without getting into a whole discussion on reworking the DC system, I think replacing epic ward with 'auto pass saves on 19-20' or 18,17, etc... depending on R# would go a long way to limit AOE instakills without destroying build potentials. (and also serve as a limiting factor for illusionists who have much higher DC potential than other schools)

[salmag]

As if you being here since launch somehow gives you any more grasp over balance than someone who hasn't. Besides, I've been here since the 3day head start, so... Hell, I've been here since the stress-test in closed beta.

Nice club we are in.

Weird being a core spell in DND doens't change the fact that this isn't DND, this is DDO. If you wanna complain about not having things that DND has, this should be the last place you look, frankly.

DDO is definitely NOT DnD. I am complaining about not having Spell options, not that it is "DnD."

It'd be very easy to hit no-save DC on weird, Wail, Frog, and FoD, and now with them seemingly adding EIN in fatesinger (from the sound of it) that too. If you think having 4 AOE instakills with no-save or basically no-save DC along with single target instakills is balanced you're looking at balance from a very bad point of view. You are so focused on 'balance' between what's available in what schools, and not what players can do with what they get.

Balance among classes NEVER works. Balance should be done within the classes and their different options. If you are hitting "no-save DCs" on all those different class spells, that is where a problem lies. The Devs should be looking at the ease with which one character can achieve "no-save DCs" on 4 different classes. 1-2 tops, not 4.

And it won't matter how much you want weird, SSG isn't putting it in. The entire FI lammania thread(s) made that very clear. And thank the balance gods for that.

Your balance gods have failed you, because they ARE adding it to the game. As a Tier 5 Shadowdancer spell. I want it to be added to the spell books at ninth level (as it should be) without having to invest deeply in an ED. If you want to leave it as a T5 in Shadowdancer for a Rogue to use fine. At 30th level, a Rogue/Artificer should have enough UMD to scroll it anyway.

Clearly SSG has now realized what any competent players said during FI Lammania - FI is useless as it stands for its intended purposes. Clearly they are now supplmeneting it with SD speccing. Bear in mind, this is what they said they would do (but not to that specificity). If you'd been here as long as you say, you'd already know all this. But clearly you are not as well-versed as you might think.

That is problem as well. Players should not HAVE to supplement one class tree with another. That is bad game design. Any competent gamer should know that. The trees should all stand on their own. The Racial trees should be the trees that supplement or synergize with the class trees.

If were here since release through thick and thin, you'd know who I am. I've been very vocal and present on these forums for many years and changes over Lammania and patch cycles. And if you knew who I am, you'd know I'm anything but a "fan boi". It's just that I know game design, and I have experience from other games over a life time of gaming all genres. You have seemingly swapped from "all is positive", to "all is negative". I've judge changes on their merit. And honestly, anyone who thinks the current destiny system is anything but a hot jumbled mess of bad coding and design choices that have been quickly tacked on to get content out has no grasp of game design. Clearly the actual professionals (SSG) agree with that take which is why they're now dealing with design debt they've had for 8 years.

'nuff said

[Stravix]

Can you please rethink making so it only interacts with evasion if that evasion comes from a class feat?

I know wolf druid isn't the most popular, but they should be able to combine thier t5 enhancement with this to get imp. Eva. They would want to be in this tree anyway, for the sneak attack stuffs, and would feel really bad if it basically invalidated their t5 choice.

[thunir]

Im good with Most of this.

[Stravix]

Nice club we are in.




DDO is definitely NOT DnD. I am complaining about not having Spell options, not that it is "DnD."



Balance among classes NEVER works. Balance should be done within the classes and their different options. If you are hitting "no-save DCs" on all those different class spells, that is where a problem lies. The Devs should be looking at the ease with which one character can achieve "no-save DCs" on 4 different classes. 1-2 tops, not 4.



Your balance gods have failed you, because they ARE adding it to the game. As a Tier 5 Shadowdancer spell. I want it to be added to the spell books at ninth level (as it should be) without having to invest deeply in an ED. If you want to leave it as a T5 in Shadowdancer for a Rogue to use fine. At 30th level, a Rogue/Artificer should have enough UMD to scroll it anyway.



That is problem as well. Players should not HAVE to supplement one class tree with another. That is bad game design. Any competent gamer should know that. The trees should all stand on their own. The Racial trees should be the trees that supplement or synergize with the class trees.



'nuff said

Ok, you two, cool it.

This thread is for dancing in shadows, not spitting fire. Draconic is likely to come out with the next incarnation, so do that then, ok?