U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Shadowdancer

[karatemack]

I'm happy to see the change in direction with the T5. I like Shadowdancer as a hybrid tree overall, but Weird being the only option and not-usable by Rogues in their ED tree seemed wrong. What if the T5 made enemies vulnerable to sneak attacks while temporarily granting the party sneak attack dice?

I'm glad that anything you replace Whispers with will buff stealth-play. Something to break aggro and allow the rogue to sneak away (re-enter stealth without aggro) would be amazing- even if it has to be on a longer cooldown.

[Xugx_quetoxi]

4: The T5 of this tree needs something that multiselects with Weird that uses your Assassinate in some cool, flashy way. It's unlikely to be a carbon copy of Consume (to my knowledge, that was bugged and had no actual DC) and I'd honestly rather build something new than reuse anything that wasn't 100% up to par. With that in mind, what if the new T5 was like an assassinate, but rather than an instakill, was a very effective boss debuff? This way a Rogue will have two ways of opening a fight from Stealth - versus trash, Assassinate. Versus a boss, this new attack. And someone who wasn't a rogue still gets to experience some of that gameplay by using this new from-stealth ability. If the boss debuff is punchy enough, that means that having at least one Shadowdancer in the party would make a considerable difference. My initual thoughts were to bring back the Physical vulnerability from the current Shadowdancer but turn it up to 11.

Why not an assassinate like ability for all?
Leap forward and assassinate everyone in the line.
180 degree cleave assassinate.
Single target ranged assassinate.

[CaptainSpacePony]

1: Meld is way too strong! This leads me to point 2.

2: Meld is way too weak! Hey, hey, put down those pitchforks, let me explain!! It feels like we were right on the money on making Meld a defensive martial spender. In practice, you trade Charges for defensive ability, and with careful play, you can even keep it up 100% of the time at a moderate magnitude. That's rad, and I don't want to change it. The problem is that this tree is half Arcane - and Meld doesn't do anything for that.

So, with that in mind, what if Meld had a lower dodge % per charge, but also took Arcane charges into account? Or what if you had two versions, one that only took Arcane and one that only took Martial? I think there's a lot of ways to slice this shadow, so to speak, so I'll be keeping a very close eye on further feedback.

2b: Meld will also likely be multiselected with an offensive version, most likely an adjusted form of the old Pierce the Gloom active mixed with some offensive firepower. It will need to be strong to compete with the defensive capabilities of Meld, but there's a lot of good design space still open that makes me confident we can find something that fits this niche.

I haven't thought about this to offer any meaningful solutions yet, beyond another framing of the problem.

Think of meld like Mass Frog or Dire Charge: In current play it is virtually irreplaceable and is a must-have for many builds. It is a should-have for most builds.

[Seph1roth5]

You know, when I read that you wanted to turn it up to 11 I thought you literally meant like...11 stacks of vulnerability lol. Definitely like the shadow theme and think you should go all in on it. Here're some crazy ideas (you may have seen some in discord already)


Shadow (horse/wings/something) - sort of like a greater shadowwalk, but without the annoying purpling. Boost to movement speed/jump, phase through enemies? Possible to flatten into a shadow kingdom hearts style?

Alternative to Weird for non-spellcasters - Aoe attack (charge if you really want it I guess) that does some damage (why not) and applies a countdown. When it hits 0, death. Sort of like the other lv 9 insta deaths but instead of 1 every 2 seconds, a bunch after 3 seconds?

Shadow Jump - Would be neat if shadowdancer's DD was different from regular DD. Maybe let you drop 2 and let people go back and forth. Or drop one and then the next time you use it act like a greater teleport and bring people with you back to it (overwatch style)

T5ness - Looking for a debuff that'd work on bosses, what about a shadowy blind that gives them a miss chance (I think all bosses have true sight?). Not sure if 5 is enough but 10 might be too much...

[droid327]

...a very effective boss debuff? This way a Rogue will have two ways of opening a fight from Stealth - versus trash, Assassinate. Versus a boss, this new attack.

A stealth attack that takes 20% HP off a mob if successful (Assassinate DC), if they're at 90% HP or above (a la First Blood). Basically just an "Assassinate Lite" for bosses. Its still enough that a Shadowdancer will be a hugely welcome addition to any boss fight, but not so much that it circumvents actually fighting the boss as intended. And it keeps the feel of being an assassin, as opposed to just a debuffer (even if the debuff would yield a comparable gain to DPS, over the course of a fight).

[Stravix]

You know, when I read that you wanted to turn it up to 11 I thought you literally meant like...11 stacks of vulnerability lol. Definitely like the shadow theme and think you should go all in on it. Here're some crazy ideas (you may have seen some in discord already)


Shadow (horse/wings/something) - sort of like a greater shadowwalk, but without the annoying purpling. Boost to movement speed/jump, phase through enemies? Possible to flatten into a shadow kingdom hearts style?

Alternative to Weird for non-spellcasters - Aoe attack (charge if you really want it I guess) that does some damage (why not) and applies a countdown. When it hits 0, death. Sort of like the other lv 9 insta deaths but instead of 1 every 2 seconds, a bunch after 3 seconds?

Shadow Jump - Would be neat if shadowdancer's DD was different from regular DD. Maybe let you drop 2 and let people go back and forth. Or drop one and then the next time you use it act like a greater teleport and bring people with you back to it (overwatch style)

T5ness - Looking for a debuff that'd work on bosses, what about a shadowy blind that gives them a miss chance (I think all bosses have true sight?). Not sure if 5 is enough but 10 might be too much...

I could see a delayed, AoE assassinate, both being BA as heck, but also frustrating in party play, as you watch your tagged enemies still get nuked by the sorc

[Pandjed]

I haven't thought about this to offer any meaningful solutions yet, beyond another framing of the problem.

Think of meld like Mass Frog or Dire Charge: In current play it is virtually irreplaceable and is a must-have for many builds. It is a should-have for most builds.

If these are irreplaceable, then it shows how badly Epic Levels need a rehaul, and why these abilities are not good for game health.

[QuixoticNeutral]

While I'm sad to see it go I totally get why you want to nerf Meld. My issue is though with the proposed implementation all I see is every DPS class being forced to take up light armour so they can continue using Meld. Dodge is just way too important form of mitigation for high reaper/reaper raids, more so than what build can ever hope to achieve through PRR.

May I suggest you add a new PRR equivelant to Meld in US? You can play around with it so it doesn't feel like a straight copy of Meld, but if you want people to stop thinking of Meld as a "must have" then you need to offer players a solid alternative or rebalance reaper.

[Merrillman]

I love the game. Love playing it. But you have just violently murdered literally everything I enjoy about playing. I am a DPS arcane caster. Period. I do not want to play anything else. I do not like melee. I do not enjoy any aspect of it. I like wizards and sorcerers. I do not want to play a CC. I spend ACTUAL MONEY on a Regular basis already (Spell Point Pots) just to try and keep up with people who can spam heal, have 40,000 AC and PRR that absorbs literally every bit of damage. You are taking the ONE fun aspect I have — DAMAGE — and destroying it. You are KILLING Crit damage (AND already destroyed MS) and then further limiting it by taking a full 5 stat points away. YOU killed Draconic Crit too!! ***??? The stats being taken kills spell points, saves (to a class already starved for protection), and DC, as well as anything that scales from it or brings enhancements to it. You refuse to make dual scepters on par (last update is trash, all you get is 5% efficiency that is not stackable). WE HAVE NO HEALING. WE ARE AUTOMATICALLY HIT WITH OUR AC. WE HAVE JACK FOR PRR. WE CANT HIDE, ARENT MOBILE, AND CANNOT MELD INTO SHADOWS. DISPLACEMENT IS A JOKE. HEALING POTS? USELESS. They do nothing. Hirelings?? DONT ME STARTED. You’re gonna also take rejuve cocoon away?? I do NOT want to have to be a PM to get a heal. We already can’t solo, and this makes it worse!! WHAT ARE YOU THINKING???

WHAT WIZARD ****ED YOU OFF?

We are ALREADY BALANCED. We only get damage. The whole point is at HIGH LEVEL, wizards and sorcerers are SUPPOSED TO BE overwhelming. That’s why we DIE so much and have to spend so much capital on resurrection and healing! We literally PAY more than any other class to survive!

Please do not continue on this path. It is game breaking for DPS. Is it that the game is in deep trouble and you have to raise capital? Just be honest. This is the worst thing you have ever done to this game.

[Stravix]

I love the game. Love playing it. But you have just violently murdered literally everything I enjoy about playing. I am a DPS arcane caster. Period. I do not want to play anything else. I do not like melee. I do not enjoy any aspect of it. I like wizards and sorcerers. I do not want to play a CC. I spend ACTUAL MONEY on a Regular basis already (Spell Point Pots) just to try and keep up with people who can spam heal, have 40,000 AC and PRR that absorbs literally every bit of damage. You are taking the ONE fun aspect I have — DAMAGE — and destroying it. You are KILLING Crit damage (AND already destroyed MS) and then further limiting it by taking a full 5 stat points away. YOU killed Draconic Crit too!! ***??? The stats being taken kills spell points, saves (to a class already starved for protection), and DC, as well as anything that scales from it or brings enhancements to it. You refuse to make dual scepters on par (last update is trash, all you get is 5% efficiency that is not stackable). WE HAVE NO HEALING. WE ARE AUTOMATICALLY HIT WITH OUR AC. WE HAVE JACK FOR PRR. WE CANT HIDE, ARENT MOBILE, AND CANNOT MELD INTO SHADOWS. DISPLACEMENT IS A JOKE. HEALING POTS? USELESS. They do nothing. Hirelings?? DONT ME STARTED. You’re gonna also take rejuve cocoon away?? I do NOT want to have to be a PM to get a heal. We already can’t solo, and this makes it worse!! WHAT ARE YOU THINKING???

WHAT WIZARD ****ED YOU OFF?

We are ALREADY BALANCED. We only get damage. The whole point is at HIGH LEVEL, wizards and sorcerers are SUPPOSED TO BE overwhelming. That’s why we DIE so much and have to spend so much capital on resurrection and healing! We literally PAY more than any other class to survive!

Please do not continue on this path. It is game breaking for DPS. Is it that the game is in deep trouble and you have to raise capital? Just be honest. This is the worst thing you have ever done to this game.

please save this for after any arcane dps tree is actually revealed, ok?

[Pandjed]

please save this for after any arcane dps tree is actually revealed, ok?

Or any "true" arcane tree at all.

[Mindos]

7: Whispers is currently nonfunctional and also quite controversial. In its place, I am considering some sort of alternative that uses your Bluff score to temporarily confuse

If I could confuse on demand I would be very happy. How many ways can someone confuse a mob? I honestly don't know. I think warlock can?

[Zezahk]

If I could confuse on demand I would be very happy. How many ways can someone confuse a mob? I honestly don't know. I think warlock can?

Conversely, I'd be really unhappy if confusion appeared here. It's a pretty obvious weak link in warlock tainted scholar, where the momentary pause in enemy AI as it redecides what it wants dead is more valuable than any potential damage it will inflict. It does have tactical value for an assassin type, but you can dip into this through warlock past life already. (Lyn: please make Warlock: Delver of the Forbidden not break stealth) The sole advantage that confusion has over any other enchantment type effect is that it works on undead enemies.

[Tlorrd]

Agreed esp since Tsunami is being added to druid spell books also thinking it should be added to water clerics too

+1

[Merrillman]

please save this for after any arcane dps tree is actually revealed, ok?

It’s irrelevant. They are destroying all DPS, level gating everything and based on the nerfing of every other tree and this insane charge system, you’re only going to get bent over again once the trees are released.

[Montegue]

I take it back about Weird. It doesn't seem to land on more than one foe? I tested it on R1 in Sharn, so it's possible my DC was a little low (100ish). I'll try it on Elite and see what it looks like there, but I'm not sure it's hitting 4 people. When I cast it, typically I only see the phantom arm thingies on one mob.

[cru121]

I take it back about Weird. It doesn't seem to land on more than one foe? I tested it on R1 in Sharn, so it's possible my DC was a little low (100ish). I'll try it on Elite and see what it looks like there, but I'm not sure it's hitting 4 people. When I cast it, typically I only see the phantom arm thingies on one mob.

that's a bug, and a known issue

[Bobby88888]

Lets dive right in to the tree. I was aiming to be brief, but that clearly didn't work out for me.

Cores:
The loss of SA from the cores hurts, even if it is possible to get some of them back from Long Shadows.
The survival of DD is a nice QoL thing to see make it through.
The Darkest Luck - This... isn't very good. Most (but granted not all) people who could utilise evasion already have it, but my problem with the ability comes in with the next step. Improved evasion is a trap feat. I never (at least not in the past like 8 years) take improved evasion on an evasionist. It simply doesn't do anything for a well built evasion character. If I ever took improved evasion for some reason then I would also be horrified to have a -25% threat reduction foisted onto me. That is a debuff not a buff. This ability does little for most non evasionists, nothing for most evasionists, and if you took improved evasion debuffs you. This needs to be fixed to actually provide something of any value.

T1:
Cover of Darkness - Props for the theme. Sadly the ability is subpar. See above mini rant on threat reduction, at least this one isn't tied to the passive core bonuses so I can just skip it. Nightshield is categorically worse than Shield as a Magic Missile blocker unless you happen to have a shield or shield bonus to AC then it is a wash. Either way sooo many shield clickies in game that it doesn't matter.
Assassinate - Sadly the tree nolonger features anything hinging on assassinate DCs in this ED except the Builders (which only triggers blind so not worth building assassinate DCs just for that) so this is only relevant to Falconers and Assassins, except for the 3rd level which makes it mandatory for generating those martial charges. I will talk more on this at the end.
Technician - Very useful for trapping r10 lvl 30 quests at lvl 20, otherwise has no use what-so-ever. It is nostalgic though. Not going to take Nimble Fingers feat to get a SA die from here, wasted feat and 3 DP.
ShadowDancer Builders: Shrouding Strike/Shot - appart from the already mentioned cooldowns nothing much to say here either way. Just a button I have to press to get charges every 6 seconds, nothing more.
ShadowDancer Builders: Arcane Lance - Interesting to see the cross sphere builder but without knowing the uses for Arcane Charges can't comment more. Seems a lot more useful for a caster than the Shot/Strike for physical character.

T2:
Long Shadow - I am so here, please and thankyou. Get back some of the lost SA dice from the cores and the bonus of no-fail on a 1 with reflex helps mitigate the sting of lost SA dice, doesn't fix the underlying problem of the whole Builder/Spender/Enhancer Charge system but on this enhancer at least I can almost squint enough to not care. If you don't fix the underlying system then at least bring everything up to this as a baseline.
Sleight of Hand - If you need offhand strike chance then its nice enough. A lot of people probably don't. And yes I was only referring to 2WFing people there.
Shadowform (mantle) - Non stacking movement speed bonus and non stacking sneak speed bonus... Gain ghost touch. Ummmm... What? Why? Never mind, skipping this. If you can't see the problem here there is no hope.
Lithe - Know it and Love it. Now with added Spell power for casters.
Meld into Darkness (spender) - Ah a good old pot of controversy. Is Meld too powerful on live right now? Yes. What do I think of this version? I'm unconvinced. The purpose of Meld on live is completely lost as a panic button when you just can't afford to be hit for the next 15 seconds (I am looking at you Doom reapers). A lower dodge value that can be always on just isn't really useful for the most part. Would I still take it? Sure. But I would hardly use it now, the nerf is just too severe.
If you used Arcane Charges and Martial Charges on Meld then it would be incredibly strong, probably more so than on live, at least for caster/illusionist (The Drop (T4) looks like a total powerhouse for Arcane Charges on illusionists).
Meld is a tough one and I am not sure exactly how to tackle it. On the one hand it is a balancing nightmare, on the other it is a staple of everyone's playstyle so radical change is going to cause backlash. The problem is that its use entirely stems from it being totally broken in power. I have considered and been able to make builds that have basically permanent 75%+ dodge but it was never worth the tradeoff to achieve since a well timed Uncanny Dodge, Meld or Hood of Unrest combined with good placement will see you through most of the time.
At any rate I don't want to see Meld become weaker than the level 6 heroic ability Improved Uncanny Dodge, conversely it would be nice if it didn't eclipse that same ability.

T3:
Depths of Darkness (mantle) - 3 SA dice and 3 spell pen. Depends on the caster but for physicals this is actually a good ability on a mantle! It is even only at T3, shame I have to waste DP on the base mantle to turn it on if I wanted this.
Crippled with Shadows - Stat damage in epics and reapers is a joke. The feat is a joke. This ability is a joke. I am not laughing. I will take it anyway for the +1 charge cap, you can delete the rest of the ability so it doesn't clutter the UI.
Grim Precision - Either you need it or you don't. I am usually in the 'don't' group.
Whispers - As noted this ability is useless (and I am not talking about being non-functional) The cooldown is too long when I can just use a noisemaker instead, that I don't need to spend DP on. So this definitely needs to go. More stealth tools is great! I am pumped. I will try to come up with some ideas by the end of this post to put in my wrap up!

T4:
Pierce the Gloom - To hit bonuses in specific circumstances. Thematic but not useful. Rank 3 bonuses are generally not useful, except for divines on quell immunity? I suppose if you are a Divine Crusader + Shadowdancer or base class divine.
Dark Armour - Doesn't really fit the theme of the tree. Maybe a dodge cap raise here?
Dark Mercy (mantle) - This ticks all the boxes. Again though, I have to waste a DP on base mantle ability.
The Drop - Well Illusion caster paradise here with Arcane charge on illusion cast (pending what those are used for naturally) maybe the force scaling would make the feat worth taking on a caster? Didn't test.
Linger in the Dark - In theory I like the tumble, or sneak, or jump up and down while patting your head and rubbing your tummy for a buff mechanics. In practice not so much. Also the cooldown is really long on this. I would halve it and then see where it needs to go from there.

T5:
Improved Shadow Form (mantle) - Ah my old frienemy, we meet again. While we are redoing EDs can we please, for the love of shadows remove Feather Fall from this ability. It is a really nice ability, except for Feather Fall which is such a terrible debuff that it negates all the gains and then some from this. Also, while I am pointing out the evils of Feather Fall can we get a universal toggle that enables/disables every last source of Feather Fall on a character, be that feat, enhancement, stance, destiny, spell, whatever. Please and thank you. I will be eternally grateful! And if anyone starts making enemies cast Feather Fall on players than that is it. I am out. So don't go getting any ideas.
Weird - Okay so consume was buggy, we all know that. But can we fix it/make a new version of it to put in here? It was one of my favourite abilities when I was in this tree, provided the ability was working that day of the week ofc.
Shadow Mastery - Make it dogde/dodge cap/mad +1/2/3 and I am sold. Otherwise if you don't need assassinate DCs this is 3 DP for 1% dodge.

thoughts
There is not a lot going on in T1 and 2, except for Long Shadows and Meld (which is now not really going on, and if it was useful would require high levels for more charges).
The mantle doesn't really offer much until T3 and the T5 version is unusable due to Feather Fall.
Assassinate DCs aren't really used in the tree. It would be cool to see some multiselectors offer things that hinged on assassinate DCs (so not everyone felt they have to run them) or just put them straight in there. If assassinate DCs aren't introduced into the tree then Assassinate (T1) needs to be a multiselector or something so that everyone can get the Rank 3 bonus without wasting points on Ranks 1 and 2 that do absolutely nothing for them. Even if you do add assassinate DC uses into the tree I would still seriously consider doing this.

On Whisper: The live Shadowdancer has a wonderful ability that I love to use called Shadow Manipulation. It, alongside Consume were the funest parts of the tree for me. With Consume gone due to its buggy nature I would love to see Shadow Manipulation returned to the tree, and it could take Whisper's place. Could make it only usable from stealth or not, either way.
Alternatively, a single target confusion SLA that hinges off bluff usable only from stealth would be a fun way to cause some havoc going into a fight and give you an opening.
Either way I would love to see Shadow Manipulation make its way into the new tree (and not tied only to mental stats)

[HuneyMunster]

Lets dive right in to the tree. I was aiming to be brief, but that clearly didn't work out for me.

T1:
Cover of Darkness - Props for the theme. Sadly the ability is subpar. See above mini rant on threat reduction, at least this one isn't tied to the passive core bonuses so I can just skip it. Nightshield is categorically worse than Shield as a Magic Missile blocker unless you happen to have a shield or shield bonus to AC then it is a wash. Either way sooo many shield clickies in game that it doesn't matter.

For rogues it's hard to get a usable AC so Nightshield is better and the only clickies for it are on armors. Nightshield, unless it's been changed blocks Darkfire that Forgewraiths have. I'm not sure what other monsters have it, but getting hit with it can be a one shot.

Shadow Jump - Would be neat if shadowdancer's DD was different from regular DD. Maybe let you drop 2 and let people go back and forth. Or drop one and then the next time you use it act like a greater teleport and bring people with you back to it (overwatch style)

I asked for this a long time ago for Shadowdancer that also reduces the cooldown of Shadai-kai version like Leap of Faith does for Favored Souls. The problem now is that something like that would have to be higher tier and their is too much competition in the tree for room to put things in. Though eventually they would have to fill in some extra cores that could be mutually exclusive with other trees. I would think part of the changes was to be able to have a tier 6 and even tier 7 in the future.

[A-O]

If these are irreplaceable, then it shows how badly Epic Levels need a rehaul, and why these abilities are not good for game health.

Thank you for being a voice of reason in all the clutter of "but muh power level!!!11". Glad someone thinks about the game system and the real issues we have, and not just how long their...stick is.

We already can’t solo, and this makes it worse!!

Top kek. Won't even bother explaining how wrong you are, I just hope that SSG completely ignores anyone with your perspective on balance.