U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Shadowdancer

[redoubt]

Meld into darkness is going from 100% to 30% ???

[A-O]

Meld into darkness is going from 100% to 30% ???

30-50%, and up time going from 15sec/2 min to 100% up time. It's broken beyond belief. Unless changed there will only be 1 build-type (45%+ dodge builds).

[J1NG]

30-50%, and up time going from 15sec/2 min, to 100% up time. It's broken beyond belief. Unless changed there will only be 1 build-type (45%+ dodge builds).

Usually this means one thing;

Dodge is about to get nerfed.

J1NG

[A-O]

Usually this means one thing;

Dodge is about to get nerfed.

J1NG

God I hope so. Please for the love of god let dodge have a reaper penalty!!
I don't want my gameplay to be 5% chance to be instakilled or 95% chance to take no damage.


PS: they probably just didn't know you could easily make 45%+ dodge builds to abuse it. They're only now (if they're reading) realizing their mistake.

[J1NG]

God I hope so. Please for the love of god let dodge have a reaper penalty!!
I don't want my gameplay to be 5% chance to be instakilled or 95% chance to take no damage.


PS: they probably just didn't know you could easily make 45%+ dodge builds to abuse it. They're only now (if they're reading) realizing their mistake.

That's not true. 100% and then 95% Dodge with 100% Up time has been a thing for years already. This is 100% NOT new. Just a delayed change.

J1NG

[Monkey_Archer]

That's not true. 100% and then 95% Dodge with 100% Up time has been a thing for years already. This is 100% NOT new. Just a delayed change.

J1NG

Yes, but those builds made major sacrifices to do that. Giving easy access to 100% up time on otherwise much stronger builds is quite different.

[QuixoticNeutral]

Personally, the biggest appeal/reason to play SD over other DPS EDs was for the assassinate abilities in Executioner's Strike and Consume. That these have been removed with nothing to really replace them to make use of the already underused assassination DCs has kind of left a big question mark on the ED's purpose.

I won't be playing nu-SD to maximise dps. As much as I like more having more SA die, the way the game currently works is that its critical hits or bust to really matter, and SA do not benefit from crits. Then you have it that it's the only martial ED that lacks a damage focused Martial Finisher. Instead its only finisher is a defensive one in Meld? For an ED that represents the high-DPS archetype?

Like old SD, it suffers from having "value" added to it by having lots of traits that are redundant to any decently geared player: striding, ghost touch, incorporeal. featherfall.

First blood? Tumbling while sneaking? These are all very gimmicky and people will ignore. Acrobat has proved nobody likes tumbling around to activate buffs.

Now, I am VERY happy we get to see Weird in DDO. But I am confused why it is a T5 SD ability for what is essentially a non-caster ED save for the pity SLA builder skill. Yes I get that arcane trickers is a thing, but aside from Weird, what about SD makes it a suitable caster/dps hybrid ED?

If I may suggest, I would bring back Executioner's Shot/Strike as a T5 Martial Finisher, to give players a real reward for sticking to this tree. I would also put Weird on a multiselector with Consume, to give an Assassinate alternative to non-caster builds.

At the moment, this ED looks rather rudderless in its goals. Especially compared to the likes of Grandmaster and Divine Crusaders which are absolutely inspired and buffed out the wazoo. SD in-game already suffers from being a popular ED to splash for with Meld, but very little builds actually want to main outside of diehard assassins and DEX/INT builds who want some assassinate utility. Nu-SD does not seem to have solved any of that despite the stated goal of making more universally useful EDs. If anything I only see SD relegated to Meld splash permanently where even the assassin players are going to move onto to better options.

[DYWYPI]

The 'Retreat to the Shadows' and 'The Darkest Luck' seem to be partly mimicking typical Rogue class feats. Rather than "Trapfinding" perhaps True Seeing or maybe automatically revealing Secret doors of a specific Search DC would be more apt for a more open "Illusion and darkness" based theme. Obviously pure Rogues aren't native casters.

[...] Whispers: Create an Illusory Shadow that acts as a Noisemaker trap. Cooldown: 60/50/40 Seconds ...

Is "Whisper(s)" actually functioning on Lamannia? I tried to use it several times albeit I don't think anything actually happened...? :-/

I've no idea why Whisper(s) currently appears in Shadowdancer; now if it produced some kind of summoned creature - or ally - as a distraction or sacrifice, I could nearly understand. The old 'Shadow Manipulation', was fun, but if Whisper is basically just a single long-lasting static Noisemaker? Then I cannot really see it being that useful. I mostly solo Assassins. Although about the only time I have ever found setting Noisemakers useful was within a small niche section of: R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre: Call for Stealthy Players!, [Post #375]. From the loose Developer' description, I get the impression it would rarely be used in most groups.

[Ganak]

I run a TWF ranger in Shadowdance today...this iteration would not be the tree anymore for me.

The already many times mentioned removal of Executioner's Strike/consume, puts the Assassinate trait firmly back into 1 enhancement tree of 1 class.

Rogue and caster tree now.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Shadowform: Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle. +10/20/30% Enhancement bonus to Movement Speed, and can Sneak +20/35/50% faster (this will not stack with other enhancements that grant a permanent bonus to movement speed while sneaking). Your attacks gain Ghost Touch, and may bypass the Incorporeality of monsters.

seems underwhelming

[Tobril]

Linger in the Dark - Please no. This is a DPS loss in raid and quest boss situations, in addition to getting people killed due to positioning issues. Redesigning this to be a spender seems like a much better idea. (so long as the spend outweighs the benefit of keeping charges for static bonuses)

The top end of this tree is exceptionally weak. The only ability that isn't heavily covered elsewhere is the critical multiplier.

As an alternative to buffing niche feats to make destinies better, consider choosing past life feats instead. Delete Nimble Fingers, Snakeblood, Luck of Heroes, and all those other feats that are never taken.

Instead tie bonuses to the appropriate class past life.

The rest of this tree looks quite nice, with compelling reasons to keep vs spend martial charges.

[redoubt]

30-50%, and up time going from 15sec/2 min to 100% up time. It's broken beyond belief. Unless changed there will only be 1 build-type (45%+ dodge builds).

I read the stuff in the recommended order, but only came away with 3 stacks which is why I said 30%. Does the new thing stack 5 times? Do the stacks disappear each time you activate this? How fast can you get them back? Can you get 5 stacks back in 15 seconds to actually create a 100% up time?

[redoubt]

Next two questions:

1. Why is there caster specific stuff in this tree?

2. Where did consume go?

[redoubt]

Shadowform: Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle. +10/20/30% Enhancement bonus to Movement Speed, and can Sneak +20/35/50% faster (this will not stack with other enhancements that grant a permanent bonus to movement speed while sneaking). Your attacks gain Ghost Touch, and may bypass the Incorporeality of monsters.

So you say none of this will stack... so as a pure rogue assassin you are giving me back action points to spend.

3 from thief acrobat fast movement. 20% run speed as a pure rogue... doesn't stack now, move those elsewhere.
1 from assassin "stealthy" which boosts sneak speed the exact amount of shadowform.

I guess I can always take more MP or INT from harper.

I really am trying to digest this revamp, but it really is pretty chaotic...

[VinoeWhines]

First of all I think it's great you want to re look at things and make them better, appealing and pretty neat as build concepts, and I applaud the devs for that very much. It's rare that this game has been able to grow and change and have a player base that can support the changes.

Here is the dangerous line though that you have to be very careful to not cross. Removing certain parts of the game that have been already baked into the player community for a long time. Epic Destinies have been this community that needed some fixes, but not certain removals of abilities that have been staples to many builds.

Here's a thought, how about keep the existing Epic Destinies, but put it in this new Enhancement Tree setup, that way all of us don't loose the AOE's, Special Feats, Abilities, and Insta-Kills we were doing fine in. Add the Stat's in STR,DEX,CON,INT,WIS,CHA in the Cores(+2STAT)instead of just removing them completely.(why take away important parts of builds, stats are more than just DC's it helps with skills, feats, enhancements and saves.
What is the point of nerfing our abilities. Just add to them if anything not take away.
Example to stop doing: We are gonna chop off your arm but! we are gonna give you this adapter that will let you punch at things without feeling it. (our arms were used for more things than just punching, we use it to hold things in our other hand, it helps us carry things that are important). Stop taking away critical things and in return giving us something that we don't need. Improve or fix an ability or feat.
Example 2: Shadow Dancer (old version) build "charges" to be able to use a active attack, charges stack up to 3,5,7 times. (Nerfed to: No more charges devs said to cumbersome, and instead increased the cooldown to be usable maybe once or twice per dungeon).
Current Shadow dancer was nerfed with longer cooldowns, which hurt but was doable with better scaling.
So was old ED-Shadow Charges to cumbersome(Consume: 2 minute cooldown) then? but "charges" are no longer cumbersome for new style?

Now they propose to COMPLETELY want to remove:
1. Shadow Manipulation: Very Important aggro magnet usability to starting a fight. For what? What is Better At This Tier?
2. Consume: A form of Implosion that would help when in trouble and about to get ganged up on? For what? What is Better At This Tier?
3. Dark Imbuement: An AOE reach in Melee and AOE splash damage when ranging. For what? What is Better At This Tier?
4. Executioners Strike/Shot: Only a 35% chance to instakill a target is gone? For what? What is Better At This Tier?

What on earth is the reasoning of removing 5, yes FIVE, with Meld into Darkness changes in this proposed Epic Destiny Tree change.
How has this tree improved, when loosing those four major abilities, let alone loosing Stats in Int, Dex as well proposed to be a better ability.
If you don't want to waste the right side bar with stats, like I said put them in the cores; even costing an extra point if someone wants to enhance the cores as a multi-selector option to add a stat to a core.
But do not, don't take away a crucial part of a tree, just to "change it up." I have been playing ddo since I bought the boxed game from the box store COMP USA an installed it on the PC. And watched the game loose things, it didn't need to. This will be a game breaker for many people like us who have spent allot of money and allot of time, years in investing in this game and class builds.
Why remove these things. Add to them or give hard choices from old to new, but don't take away major points to this Epic Destiny for the sake of changing it up.

Give everyone rogue skills, and cleric skills and make everyone the same build is what you are pushing along.
Whatever happened to ddo: A Fighter was a Fighter. A Cleric was a Cleric. A Caster was a Caster. A Rogue was a Rogue. A Ranger was a Ranger.
For those that wanted to multiclass, that was ok.
Introducing a new class = great.
Now the new dev team wants everyone all inclusive.
When I want a haircut, I go to a Barber.
When I want a choice of cut meat, I go to a Butcher.

Why can't your friends be your friends, your workers, be your workers and your family be your family.

I really hope you add to a Epic Destiny and not remove and kill off abilities we are using very often and constantly.

I play in Reaper 10 and these abilities are mandatory.

[HuneyMunster]

The only option I see in currently implementation is to take out all the Arcane spell casting tools out and create a new Destiny called Arcane Trickster. Primary abilities would be based on Intelligence and Charisma. The Arcane Trickster should offer things for mostly melee Wizards, Sorcerers Eldritch Knights and Bard builds. Also move the trapping tools here and allow the unlocking of the Disable Device ability that grants your epic levels to disable device skill.

Shadowdancer should go in a different direction that it currently is going, but I can't see any tree being able to compete with Tier 5 Legendary Dreadnought as the must have feat means its's must have Tier 5 now. The Great Leveler Tier 5 from Fury of the Wild is the other alternative to take. This would certainly be a worthy option for Shadai-Kai if the Trip chance on chain attack was more than a measly 5% chance,

[A-O]

I read the stuff in the recommended order, but only came away with 3 stacks which is why I said 30%. Does the new thing stack 5 times? Do the stacks disappear each time you activate this? How fast can you get them back? Can you get 5 stacks back in 15 seconds to actually create a 100% up time?

Max cap of charges is 3 base. +1 from cripple with shadows, +1 from Sow Discord in LD tree. = 5. (can even get +1 more from GMOF if centered for 6 cap.

Builder in SD is every 12 seconds +1 charge.
Momentum swing in LD is every 6 seconds +1 charge

Then add Wrath (LD tree 30% chance for 1 charge when using tactic ability), and
10% chance on all Sneak attacks to get 1 charge. That's at least 2 charges over 20 seconds.

And then add
Bring into Focus in GMOF if you want to, for another +1 charge per 6 seconds. Or +3 charges over 18.
and The Flickering Flame (10% chance when missed or missing to get a charge, max 1 every 10 seconds). So that's 2-4 charges.

In other words, easy to get 4 using just SD + LD. Or 6 if in GMOF + SD. Or 9 if all three.

[Zakharov]

• Weird: The Weird spell is added to your Spellbook as a level 9 spell if you are a Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, Wizard, or Favored Soul or a level 6 spell if you are an Artificer, Alchemist, Bard, or Warlock. Requires the ability to cast spells of those levels. Weird: A targeted foe and all nearby enemies are subject to a Phantasmal Killer effect, with a DC20 + highest of INT/WIS/CHA modifier + Illusion spell bonuses to prevent the death.

I've been hoping for more core book spells for years and when you add one it's stuck at the top of a destiny? At the very least this should be a normal Wiz/Sorc spell per the SRD unrelated to any destiny.

So odd for it to be here, but if it must it should be an SLA for anyone meeting the caster requirements.


Speaking of expanding the spell-books, there's plenty more that could still be added:

...me requesting more spells some years ago..

[SoVeryBelgian]

I feel this new ED take is FAR less self-connected than the others. It feels like a lot of Shadowdancer is missing, or nerfed.

I like some new things, like Weird being added, but it ought to be T4. The loss of ranged attack specialization is very noticeable.


I also don't really vibe with the charge/spend mechanic in this tree. I never liked Shrouding Shot and would always prefer Executioner's Shot just for ease of use.

If you DO continue with Shrouding Shot and make a specification for Martial Charges and Arcane Charges, there should be more mutiselectors.


All in all, this tree stands out to me as the least 'together' one. No real theme here. But that's just my opinion.

[slarden]

Hybrid builds are compelling for solo and short-man questing. They aren't as good for raiding where min/maxing is king, but getting workable dcs are decidedly easy under the new epic destiny paradigm so hybrid builds may not qualify for a DPS role in raids, but should easily qualify for a caster role such as cc - although those are much fewer compared to dps roles. Under the current system epic destinies were a barrier for hybrid builds because DC and DPS were in different trees and a few twists weren't enough to balance things.

I wanted to specifically check whether a deep gnome wizard 18/artificer 2 inquisitive can get workable dcs for illusion and enchantment under the new system with 41 pts in inquisitive, 20 in deep gnome and 12 in harper agent with the remaining points TBD based on racial past lifes.

A hybrid build still needs to determine whether to tilt martial or tilt caster - in this case tilting martial would be mean shiradi for hunts end while tilting caster would mean shadowdancer for weird. My gut reaction is that weird won't cut it because of lower dc potential and the double save so I would go shiradi as my main tree and use pk very sparingly on soft targets only. In addition a hybrid build probably needs a weapon and artifact that tilts caster and another that tilts dps for boss fights with the need to swap situationally depending on what is needed most.

With that said I would probably tilt caster with legendary feat and choose scion of feywild. At heroic levels I would use wizard bonus feats for caster feats and all other feats would be ranged and past life feats. For gear lets just assume wallwatch, set, zarash'ak ward, alchemical rune arm, legendary shattered onyx and magewright are the core pieces of gear.

Comparing to the illusionist build in my sig, with caster filigree equipped you end up with:

Int: 122 (-2 wraith form, -2 inquisitive vs feydark, -5 magister, -3 twists and arcane hymn from 134 in sig)
Illusion DC: 131 (-6 Int, -2 spell focus feats, -2 sacred bonus, -6 feydark illusionist, -3 magister loss, -3 draconic presence loss, -1 archmage)
Enchantment DC: 125 (-6 from racial enhancements and past lifes)

But keep in mind with epic resilience going away that DC would be the equivalent effectiveness of illusion 137 and enchantment 131 comparing to live right now. So greater color spray and enchantment spells will be highly effective with those dcs. PK will work on soft targets in difficult content and most targets in easier content. DPS, although behind a full-dps spec'd inquisitive build for sure but will still beat spellcasting dps which absolutely sucks- most especially on a wizard.

I definitely appreciate these hybrid trees which will better support hybrid builds. I don't know if these builds will be popular, but considering how bad caster dps is it seems getting workable dcs on a caster with martial dps is a very compelling option.