U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Shadowdancer

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

one of the best 'oh snap' emergency twists is being completely nerf nuked out of existence - 'Meld into Darkness' a 100% Dodge enhancement bonus that ignored the cap and lasted 15 seconds @ lvl 20 - one of the best twists in the game is being changed to
10% that lasts 10/15/20 seconds

lol

are you guys serious? Am I asleep having a nightmare? Or is this real? late april fools I hope?

[Zuldar]

No, this feat just lets you find traps. You still need to be a Rogue or Arti to disable traps.

Being able to find traps without disarming them is a bit situational at best, maybe add a bit of trap sense to the cores as well? It fits the theme and a bit of extra reflex vs traps would be a decent middle ground.

[SWCarter]

This ED seems to have been turned on its head more than the others - its best/key abilities were removed, there is no longer support for Dexterity builds, the Assassinate DC bonuses only apply to one low-end ability for blindness, Weird requires a fully leveled caster, etc. I am not sure what build this tree is for anymore.

[Avocado]

Weird has to be the oddest thing to put in a sneaky destiny. Considering you are putting mass frog and Primal Avatar tier 5, then Weird would make a really good spell for Magister (edit: magister RIP, so Magnus destiny) tier 5.

Is this to support the none existent rogue undead wizard assasinate builds, that spec for some illusion dc? Oh wait, thats not a thing, nor will it be. In order to get either one (assassinate or illsuion) to a reasonable dc, youd need to dump the other one completely. You cant have really good assassinate and damage AND illusion dc high enough for reaper content. A dex based rogue not even consider this ability even with no illusion dc where as an int based rogue might have some luck on really low dc mobs. Please consider moving Weird to the magister destiny where you can actually spec for illsuion dc. Illusion spell casters are not in a good place and adding in a illusion spell in destiny that is more geared towards spellcasting makes way more sense then trying to add support for some weird niche hybrid undead wizard assassin build into shadowdancer. This means you remove the arcane builder and dcs enhacements from the tree also. Thats fine, fill it with something better suited for melee or range.

Also, Shadowform is ugly, please dont pigeon hole rogues into it again. +20 hide and move silently is incredibly generous. Maybe +10 to each as passive bonus and +10 while in form? Or better yet +20 passive and + 5 while in form, like live.

With all that said, you need a new tier 5 that actually makes rogues or any melee want to spend 30 APs in shadowdancer for. + assasinte dcs are good, terror goes away (omg please move it to magister), +1 crit 19-20 and??????? The winner is executioners strike. Leave it in and put it in place of Weird. Its not a op ability by any means.

This destiny was once decent for ranged. While i see you tried to incorporate range into it again, its not enough. Adding executioners ranged ability might help with it not being enough.

The core 3 just needs to be better. Any build that is going to run in shadowdancer will most likely already have evasion. If they dont, they will most likely be in heavy armor (looking at fighter 18/1/1 splits), meaning evasion is useless for them. Every single ranged build in ddo already has evasion (only matters if you add ranged support to this destiny). At the very least they gain improved evasion. For rogues with and monks, the only two classes that get improved evasion, you get 25% less threat. Big whoop, rogues dont have aggro generation issues and neither do monks. I think a dodge cap improvement is a nice idea for a sneaky desinty. SA dice never say no too. Both of those would benefit rogues more.

Crippling strike is useless and a joke. No really its absolutely useless. In reaper 1, which is honestly where the majority of players are, crippling strikes gets reduced to zero stat damage. Crippling strike should just be changed to a flat decrease in damage to the enemy. -10% flat damage. Stat damage doesnt scale at all for player use. PERHAPS if you made the crippling scale with 10x melee power or ranged power, it would be slightly more useful. So maybe the shadowdancer abilites adds to crippling strike. Crippling strike, enemies you SA get -1% attack speed per stack, max 10 stacks (or just flat 10%). Crippled in shadows: Adds effects of crippling strike feat, if you already have this feat, your SA now also reduce attack speed by 10%. STAT damage to mobs is only useful if you reduce it 0 and the mob becomes helpless, which hasnt been possible for like 8 years.

I am sad to see meld go, its not expected given the devs stance on abilites that are must haves for reaper. But so be it, its better then gone.

[Khurse]

Shrouding Strike doesn't do anything if you're not TWF.
There's an animation for THF and SWF, but it doesn't hit anything and you don't gain any charges.

[Gotwald]

Weird: The Weird spell is added to your Spellbook as a level 9 spell if you are a Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, Wizard, or Favored Soul or a level 6 spell if you are an Artificer, Alchemist, Bard, or Warlock. Requires the ability to cast spells of those levels. Weird: A targeted foe and all nearby enemies are subject to a Phantasmal Killer effect, with a DC20 + highest of INT/WIS/CHA modifier + Illusion spell bonuses to prevent the death.

Yeah, I like a lot of this tree but this is a perplexing choice. 9th level spell slots are highly prized and contested since you get so few. I like the addition of a High-level illusion spell, but adding it into spellbooks rather than giving it out as an active ability similar to consume seems... odd. I understand the new enhancement system and layout would make it more akin to an SLA if it was given straight out of the tree and a level-9 spell as an SLA would be overpowered. As it is designed currently, it seems too weak as a T5 considering the investment required. If the spell is too strong to be simply added to max level spellbooks then maybe taking the enhancement also gives you an additional spell slot similar to Spontaneous Spells like cure/repair spells? I don't know, maybe that idea's too strong, but I still feel the current incarnation is too weak. It just seems strange.

[Matuse]

Took Wierd, went to the Searing Heights and gathered up some large groups of enemies. Cast it several times and it never affected any enemies except the one I had targeted.

[Kielbasa]

This destiny now suffers from the split focus primal avatar used to suffer from. A little bit of trapping, a little bit of melee, a little range, a little casting. Weird may just be too weird an option to have as your t5 needs a multi-selector option of something different for non-casters. As others have said executioners strike/shot would be nice but make it AoE and use a variation on the Coordinated attack animation just a bit more sinister.

Assassinate- the 10% chance at a martial charge on sneak attack should be on t1 not 3. Let the people who care about assassinate fully invest and the rest 1 and done it.

Crippled with shadows- nerf reaper stat damage reduction and mobs recharge time of their stats/negative levels and this might be useful otherwise I'll pass.

Pierce the gloom: this is both better and worse than before. As a defensive option its now super useful in specific content. But I hate to lose the original functionality.

I like that evasion classes now have a way to convert that to improved evasion for epics.

[Enderoc]

Trapfinding should be an aura like effect that gives bonuses to real trappers (or self if a rogue/arti) to search for traps as you help look. Only way it would make sense.
Failing that it should be +20 (destiny bonus) search universal so at least it can help find secret doors.

[Zezahk]

I suggest that the first core grant level/2 Search to characters with innate trapfinding, and the third core grant level/2 reflex save to characters with innate improved evasion.

[Matuse]

Weird: The Weird spell is added to your Spellbook as a level 9 spell if you are a Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, Wizard, or Favored Soul or a level 6 spell if you are an Artificer, Alchemist, Bard, or Warlock. Requires the ability to cast spells of those levels. Weird: A targeted foe and all nearby enemies are subject to a Phantasmal Killer effect, with a DC20 + highest of INT/WIS/CHA modifier + Illusion spell bonuses to prevent the death.

Yeah, I like a lot of this tree but this is a perplexing choice. 9th level spell slots are highly prized and contested since you get so few. I like the addition of a High-level illusion spell, but adding it into spellbooks rather than giving it out as an active ability similar to consume seems... odd.

The spellbook option seems like it is only going to affect Clerics and Wizards. The other classes just get the spell added straight up in addition to their normal spell slots. Druids need to memorize it out of their book, but Druids don't have a problem of tight spell slots.

[Enderoc]

WEIRD should be a SLA not a slotted spell

[Zezahk]

This destiny now suffers from the split focus primal avatar used to suffer from. A little bit of trapping, a little bit of melee, a little range, a little casting. Weird may just be too weird an option to have as your t5 needs a multi-selector option of something different for non-casters. As others have said executioners strike/shot would be nice but make it AoE and use a variation on the Coordinated attack animation just a bit more sinister.

Assassinate- the 10% chance at a martial charge on sneak attack should be on t1 not 3. Let the people who care about assassinate fully invest and the rest 1 and done it.

Crippled with shadows- nerf reaper stat damage reduction and mobs recharge time of their stats/negative levels and this might be useful otherwise I'll pass.

Pierce the gloom: this is both better and worse than before. As a defensive option its now super useful in specific content. But I hate to lose the original functionality.

I like that evasion classes now have a way to convert that to improved evasion for epics.

+1 (these are all good points I agree with)

[Eme]

again, horrific decisions

[Eme]

the whole charge up thing is an abysmal concept. Thought the dev team had learnt that the first time round when they removed charge ups last time, obviously not.

[Shedrakzo]

With the changes to Shadowdancer, particularly the destiny mantle being tied to Shadowform, does this mean that Shadowform is going to lose it's status as a mutually exclusive major form? If not, then I'm a bit confused as to why the mantle is being tied to that particular ability when there are several class identities that will have conflicting issues with the destiny mantle. Druids, Elemental Savants, PMs, Warlocks, etc.

Perhaps the T5 Improved Shadowform can be tweaked to provide a lesser stacking Incorporeality bonus for anyone that's using a different Major form if that case remains.

[SpardaX]

With a max of 3 Martial Charge stack, that's makes Meld 30% vs the current 100%. Sure, the cooldown is reduced a ton, but there's a lot of fights in the game where people depended on it to not get one shotted (Orthon phase in VoD for example is brutal if one doesn't pop when they drop). Does this mean we'll see some fight mechanics revamped to offset this? Or is this the new standard of less "oh no" abilities for temp super survival?

To people worried about this, each destiny appears to have a "+1 max charge" at tier 3, so if you were to take all 3 martial destinies and take all 3 +1 max charges, you get a max stack of 6. And with enemies around you, building the charges is really easy with the attacks, so a 60% uncapped boost every 15 seconds that lasts 20 seconds isn't an impossible ask. For people who have the cap already of 27% (Plus or minus a bit more due to enhancements and ship buffs and such, lets call it 30%) you can easily get to 90%. Considering the Hard cap is 95%, I'd say having near permanent 85-90% is probably way better than having a 15s on - 105s off 95%.

Personally I'm really liking where this is going.

But bugs I've found so far:
Shrouding Melee attack doesn't hit things. You just swing and do nothing. Doesn't even roll a hit roll. - Using Single Weapon fighting animation
Shrouding Shot attack also does nothing, but even less than melee. Click shot, it goes on cool down, but no animation even plays. - Using Throwing Dagger
Weird targets a single enemy, and I have a group all so close they were touching each other and only the target died. (Tried this multiple times just incase first time was a fluke). Seems to just be single target right now.

[slarden]

The 5% Vulnerability from Shadow Mastery was a nice niche for shadowdancer that it made it desirable for one person in the raid to be in that destiny.

It would be great if you could add this back to the new tree.

[Scortius]

I play an assassin in SD quite a bit- it might be my favorite toon, although he gets less play than my raidcleric

I'm starting a bit disgruntled over the years of neglect and dev-hostility to stealth play through the shared aggro and tremor and life-sense systems.

I really liked the last round of Destiny changes that completely got rid of messing around with building charges. I really dislike charges. Assassins already have a lot to pay attention to with positioning and sneaking and waiting for stuff to come off cooldown. Whether I have enough charges to do something or whether I need to build more up is DEALBREAKING for the toon being fun to play.


The caster options are kinda cool design-wise, but they mean rogues are really forced into one set of options this tree, and there's a lot dependent on charge management.

I hope you rethink this. Maybe it'll play better than I think, but what I think will happen is I won't bother with trying to play my rogue anymore.

[Zezahk]

The 5% Vulnerability from Shadow Mastery was a nice niche for shadowdancer that it made it desirable for one person in the raid to be in that destiny.

It would be great if you could add this back to the new tree.

Its there, as a part of Improved Shadowform.