U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Fury of the Wild

[Noircere]

Whats the Problem of being Strength based?? i have 90+ Standing Strength were-as i doubt any Wis or Dex based Melee can have that much Dex or Wis :P

I have around 110 standing WIS on my monk, a WIS based melee.

[Lotoc]

So what does it triple then? It doesn't triple the +50% dmg, it doesn't triple the +1 stat per charge. Is it just SSG being SSG again, or is something supposed to triple here?

It triples the bonus to duration.

[A-O]

It triples the bonus to duration.

Okay ty for testing. That's some wonky descriptions as always. You'd think they'd run this past an actual editor or something.

[TPICKRELL]

OK,

Reallocated epic destiny points after last nights test. And re-ran R5 Bruntsmash.

This toon with same gear on Khyber runs R5 Bruntsmash in 20-24 seconds. Best time on Lammania with 41 points in fury, 1 point in shadowdancer and the rest in Dreadnaught to get MP, DS, and some other damage effects the time on Lammania is 50 Seconds. I'd shave a few seconds off that when I get more fluid at using the changed effects. But boss DPS is cut in half, and AOE is significantly reduced as well, for the same reason as above along with the lack of dire charge to make groups helpless.

Any way you cut it, my Fury barb is getting huge DPS nerf. And the counterbalance is the charge system makes it much less fun to run. You know, lose lose, what everyone wants in a big game update.

[Chacka_DDO]

[*]Primal Scream: Primal Spender: Nearby Enemies take 1d12 Sonic damage per character level and are Shaken for 4 seconds. This damage scales with the highest of 200% Melee Power or 100% Sonic Spell Power. You and your allies gain a +1 Primal bonus to all physical Ability Scores per Primal Charge for 30 seconds. The Damage dealt and buff/debuff durations are increased by 50% per Primal Charge consumed. If you have 3 or more Primal Charge, triple this bonus and confuse all nearby enemies for 3 seconds with no save.

Maybe it is just me but when I read it I would assume ALL bonuses are tripled (which would be ofc too much).
Why don't you say: "If you have 3 or more Primal Charge, the duration bonus is tripled and confuse all nearby enemies for 3 seconds with no save.?

[A-O]

OK,

Reallocated epic destiny points after last nights test. And re-ran R5 Bruntsmash.

This toon with same gear on Khyber runs R5 Bruntsmash in 20-24 seconds. Best time on Lammania with 41 points in fury, 1 point in shadowdancer and the rest in Dreadnaught to get MP, DS, and some other damage effects the time on Lammania is 50 Seconds. I'd shave a few seconds off that when I get more fluid at using the changed effects. But boss DPS is cut in half, and AOE is significantly reduced as well, for the same reason as above along with the lack of dire charge to make groups helpless.

Any way you cut it, my Fury barb is getting huge DPS nerf. And the counterbalance is the charge system makes it much less fun to run. You know, lose lose, what everyone wants in a big game update.

All DPS is nerfed. And this is a good thing.

You lost 2 cores, among other things, of course you're gonna do less dmg. This will allow them to scale us up with level cap going to 40 eventually without getting into the millions in DPS.

Seriously, stop being so short sighted and try to see what might be good for the game, and not just "muh numbers!!"

[A-O]

Maybe it is just me but when I read it I would assume ALL bonuses are tripled (which would be ofc too much).
Why don't you say: "If you have 3 or more Primal Charge, the duration bonus is tripled and confuse all nearby enemies for 3 seconds with no save.?

Can someone confirm whether there's a CD on the actual primal scream or not? Does it have any restrictions other than primal charges? And does it enrage you? Can you cancel the enrage? Does it stop you from casting other spells?

[TPICKRELL]

All DPS is nerfed. And this is a good thing.

You lost 2 cores, among other things, of course you're gonna do less dmg. This will allow them to scale us up with level cap going to 40 eventually without getting into the millions in DPS.

Seriously, stop being so short sighted and try to see what might be good for the game, and not just "muh numbers!!"

On the private Discords I'm reading, pallys and rogues are reporting large gains in DPS. Boss Kobold times in the 10-15 second range. I'm raising a stink because either there are major bugs, or it is not an across the board nerf to DPS. And numbers are the way to compare things. Martial toons are also reporting that they can quickly build and maintain charges due to double strike double procing on gainers and multiple gainers that proc more frequently. So again, either there are bugs or the system is not balanced.

[A-O]

On the private Discords I'm reading, pallys and rogues are reporting large gains in DPS. Boss Kobold times in the 10-15 second range. I'm raising a stink because either there are major bugs, or it is not an across the board nerf to DPS. And numbers are the way to compare things. Martial toons are also reporting that they can quickly build and maintain charges due to double strike double procing on gainers and multiple gainers that proc more frequently. So again, either there are bugs or the system is not balanced.

Some will undoubtedly be buffed, but that's just because SSG can't really do math. Overall it seems clear their intent is to nerf DPS and casting dcs (talking about nerfing saves on mobs to compensate, e.g.).
A bit thing is that these DPS tests are god-awful. It's a 10-30 second test that's going to severely skew results depending on if you're a burst spec (FOTW) or not. Live FOTW can use epic moment + all charges in that time for obviously insane burst dmg. But after that they're dropping significantly. PTR fotw doesn't have that drop off (overall less dmg though, still). Rather than a kobold, or dummy, or smash test, just run a decent dungeon on live and the same on PTR, and get a rough idea of how much slower the overall damage is. Or just do the math.

Again, it sure is a nerf, but gotta test under the right parameters to find out how much.

Most builds have less melee power (90 being max essentially from EDs in PTR), and the loss of blitz, fury, and turn the tide is going to hurt testing dmg. The addition of +20% easy to get offhand proc chance is going to buff rogues and TWF builds, which were already buffed with last patch.

[Monkey_Archer]

Some will undoubtedly be buffed, but that's just because SSG can't really do math. Overall it seems clear their intent is to nerf DPS and casting dcs (talking about nerfing saves on mobs to compensate, e.g.).
A bit thing is that these DPS tests are god-awful. It's a 10-30 second test that's going to severely skew results depending on if you're a burst spec (FOTW) or not. Live FOTW can use epic moment + all charges in that time for obviously insane burst dmg. But after that they're dropping significantly. PTR fotw doesn't have that drop off (overall less dmg though, still). Rather than a kobold, or dummy, or smash test, just run a decent dungeon on live and the same on PTR, and get a rough idea of how much slower the overall damage is. Or just do the math.

Again, it sure is a nerf, but gotta test under the right parameters to find out how much.

Most builds have less melee power (90 being max essentially from EDs in PTR), and the loss of blitz, fury, and turn the tide is going to hurt testing dmg. The addition of +20% easy to get offhand proc chance is going to buff rogues and TWF builds, which were already buffed with last patch.

I'm not really worried about the overall lower melee dps, or if the meta shifts towards TWFs and Divine crusader, etc...
I'm more concerned with getting the archetype balance right. The combination of direcharge isolation, adrenaline nerf, meld nerf (as a survivability twist, ignoring abuse cases for dodge builds), and possibly 10-20% lower dps depending on build is not lining up in my head with the Hunt's end buff...

[QuantumFX]

With all these Offhand doublestrike skills, does that mean we can finally have over 50%?

Also, The Great Leveler needs to make stuff helpless to keep it in line with Dire Charge and Balanced Attacks.

[TPICKRELL]

Some will undoubtedly be buffed, but that's just because SSG can't really do math. Overall it seems clear their intent is to nerf DPS and casting dcs (talking about nerfing saves on mobs to compensate, e.g.).
A bit thing is that these DPS tests are god-awful. It's a 10-30 second test that's going to severely skew results depending on if you're a burst spec (FOTW) or not. Live FOTW can use epic moment + all charges in that time for obviously insane burst dmg. But after that they're dropping significantly. PTR fotw doesn't have that drop off (overall less dmg though, still). Rather than a kobold, or dummy, or smash test, just run a decent dungeon on live and the same on PTR, and get a rough idea of how much slower the overall damage is. Or just do the math.

Again, it sure is a nerf, but gotta test under the right parameters to find out how much.

Most builds have less melee power (90 being max essentially from EDs in PTR), and the loss of blitz, fury, and turn the tide is going to hurt testing dmg. The addition of +20% easy to get offhand proc chance is going to buff rogues and TWF builds, which were already buffed with last patch.

You do a good job of explaining why the tests are coming out the way they seem to be coming out. I just disagree that this is an acceptable outcome.

I'm OK with an across the board DPS nerf, even if theres a small variation how it effects different builds. Even though this significantly increases grind times in many different ways.

I'm not OK that a TWF Pally is putting most of its points into Fury because he gets a more synergy and more DPS with Fury than a THF Barbarian. Fury is the long standing home for THF Barb's and now they are a second class build in there home destiny. To me, that's a design or implementation issue that needs to be addressed.

You also seem to trust that SSG will adjust the mob DCs for these changes. I used to give SSG the benefit of the doubt, but their history has long burned up such trust from me. They frequently say things like this and fail to follow through. They may even mean it when they say it, but all to often these things get lost in the shuffle.

Despite the faults in Bruntsmash, I use it as a data point because Bruntsmash is hitting back so it measures survivability and DPS at the same time. Both of which are nerfed here. Bruntsmash still has the HP he had on Khyber, and he still hits just as hard.

[A-O]

I'm not really worried about the overall lower melee dps, or if the meta shifts towards TWFs and Divine crusader, etc...
I'm more concerned with getting the archetype balance right. The combination of direcharge isolation, adrenaline nerf, meld nerf (as a survivability twist, ignoring abuse cases for dodge builds), and possibly 10-20% lower dps depending on build is not lining up in my head with the Hunt's end buff...

Yea, absolutely agreed. There are definitely work to be done here. Both for the nukes/spenders actually being good, and for the ranged tuning and from the looks of it DPS tuning (ranged and Divine Crusader being primate candidates).

[A-O]

You do a good job of explaining why the tests are coming out the way they seem to be coming out. I just disagree that this is an acceptable outcome.

I'm OK with an across the board DPS nerf, even if theres a small variation how it effects different builds. Even though this significantly increases grind times in many different ways.

I'm not OK that a TWF Pally is putting most of its points into Fury because he gets a more synergy and more DPS with Fury than a THF Barbarian. Fury is the long standing home for THF Barb's and now they are a second class build in there home destiny. To me, that's a design or implementation issue that needs to be addressed.

You also seem to trust that SSG will adjust the mob DCs for these changes. I used to give SSG the benefit of the doubt, but their history has long burned up such trust from me. They frequently say things like this and fail to follow through. They may even mean it when they say it, but all to often these things get lost in the shuffle.

Despite the faults in Bruntsmash, I use it as a data point because Bruntsmash is hitting back so it measures survivability and DPS at the same time. Both of which are nerfed here. Bruntsmash still has the HP he had on Khyber, and he still hits just as hard.

"home tree" should be forgotten with the new changes. Since class no longer plays a role in what destiny you start in. They vocally stated that fury is TWF + THF. The fact that THF does less dmg ST is a very good thing, considering they do 3x the damage aoe (except for tempest, which needs to be nerfed as a t5). All in all, TWF should do more dps than THF. Else why pick the style that does 1/3 of the DPS aoe. When most of DDO is aoe?

[TPICKRELL]

"home tree" should be forgotten with the new changes. Since class no longer plays a role in what destiny you start in. They vocally stated that fury is TWF + THF. The fact that THF does less dmg ST is a very good thing, considering they do 3x the damage aoe (except for tempest, which needs to be nerfed as a t5). All in all, TWF should do more dps than THF. Else why pick the style that does 1/3 of the DPS aoe. When most of DDO is aoe?

We are obviously not going to agree here.

We are probably coming at things from a different angle. I'm coming from mostly Legendary raiding perspective, where ST DPS is what matters the most. Boss DPS races are the key to completing most raids. AOE DPS is a usually a relatively minor factor.

I agree that in quests AOE is a bigger factor. The effect on quests is mostly manageable as it just means a slower completion time, and more shrining to get resources back.

Reducing ST damage in Raids leads to a much higher failure rate, and a significant reduction in the value of the build.

If my Bruntsmash when from 20-24 to say 28-30, I'd be ok with the changes, even if TWF got a bump and had 20% more ST DPS then THF. Going from 20-24 to 55 is not a reasonable change unless the nerf the HP of Raid rednames. And I dont think they will.

[A-O]

We are obviously not going to agree here.

We are probably coming at things from a different angle. I'm coming from mostly Legendary raiding perspective, where ST DPS is what matters the most. Boss DPS races are the key to completing most raids. AOE DPS is a usually a relatively minor factor.

I agree that in quests AOE is a bigger factor. The effect on quests is mostly manageable as it just means a slower completion time, and more shrining to get resources back.

Reducing ST damage in Raids leads to a much higher failure rate, and a significant reduction in the value of the build.

If my Bruntsmash when from 20-24 to say 28-30, I'd be ok with the changes, even if TWF got a bump and had 20% more ST DPS then THF. Going from 20-24 to 55 is not a reasonable change unless the nerf the HP of Raid rednames. And I dont think they will.

Yea, that's fair. Not agreeing is fine. I can see where you're coming from. But, if your only concern is raiding shouldn't you do a raid dps test and not a brutesmash. I doubt you kill Leg suumolates R10 in 25 seconds. Perhaps 5-10 minute DPS tests will alleviate some concerns a bit?

[TPICKRELL]

Yea, that's fair. Not agreeing is fine. I can see where you're coming from. But, if your only concern is raiding shouldn't you do a raid dps test and not a brutesmash. I doubt you kill Leg suumolates R10 in 25 seconds. Perhaps 5-10 minute DPS tests will alleviate some concerns a bit?

Do you know of a reasonable 5-10 minute red-name beat down test that is soloable? I don't. Bruntsmash is a poor test, but its available.

And its not my only concern, just the highest priority.

On its face its a poor test. But I've found that when we have 3 or 4 solid Bruntsmash time DPS in the raid group, we also have much better runs. So its a poor test but seems to be pretty indicative of raid performance all the same.

[Ebondevil]

Core Abilities

1. Die Hard (level 20): You gain the Diehard feat. Each Core ability, including this one, grants +20 Maximum Hit Points and +10 Melee Power
2. Die Harder (level 23): +100 Unconsciousness Range.
3. Die Hardest (level 26): +250 Unconsciousness Range.

Please rename
Die Hardest
to
Die Hard with a Vengeance

Thanks!

[A-O]

Do you know of a reasonable 5-10 minute red-name beat down test that is soloable? I don't. Bruntsmash is a poor test, but its available.

And its not my only concern, just the highest priority.

Math. The game is numbers, everything (basically) is available. You can just do the math. There's nothing mystical about DDO or its systems that doesn't boil down to numbers.

It's either that or grab a group together to try a long test. Or just go solo Elite leg VOD. easy enough to do and lets you check your DPS.

[LurkingVeteran]

"Unquenchable Rage: Reduce all damage taken, except Untyped, by 10/15/25% for 5 seconds after you consume a rage charge or use Primal Scream. Rank 3: You also apply the effects of a Heal spell to yourself, scaling by Melee Power."

If I'm reading this correctly, any melee can now get basically a maxed out self-Heal (normally only scales with 50% spell power anyway) every 8 seconds (one charge)?

That seems really powerful?

Granted, most melee could already do something similar with BF, but that comes with its own disadvantages.