U51 Early Preview: Epic Feats, Destiny Feats, and Legendary Feats Changes

[Scortius]

I agree mass frog is a no-brainer on a caster, but not for the reason you say. Undead and Constructs have sufficiently low saves that with just universal dc and no investment in wisdom you can kill a large % of these enemy types with this spell (excluding golems and other things with spell resistance).

I would say it is taken by most casters because having a useful ability against just undead and constructs beats all the alternative choices which are absolute weak-sauce and/or do not work properly. Aside form using it against undead or constructs - I never use it for the natural 1 chance and given the spell point cost that would be a poor usage of the spell. There are enough tools that work reliably to use a caster is never going to waste spell points on something that only works if the enemy rolls a 1.

There has been alot of emphasis on knocking casters down a peg (or multiple pegs) in recent years. I hope there is some attempt to address the major problem casters have that prevent them from filling dps spots in raids - single target damage.

Completely agree on this.

And seriously Steel? We should be casting spells 10 times or more until we fish out the Nat-1 save? When these mobs spawn in packs, whether they be scarecrows or beetles or flameskulls?

[o2t4f]

Destiny Feats:
ALL DESTINY FEATS NO LONGER CONTAIN SPHERE REQUIREMENTS

Epic Spellpower (all types)
Provides +20 Spellpower with the associated elemental type
Now also provides +10% spell critical damage with the appropriate elemental type

Epic Skill Focus (all skills)
Removed from the game!

Dire Charge
Dire Charge is no longer an Epic Feat; it can now be found in Legendary Dreadnought.

Mass Frog
Mass Frog is no longer an Epic Feat; it can now be found in Primal Avatar.

Destiny Feats with NO MIN LEVEL
Now have Min Level 22

Destiny Feats with Min Level 28
Now have Min Level 25

Destiny Feats with min Level 29
Now have Min Level 28

Legendary Feats
Scion of Earth

• +4 to the DCs of Conjuration and Transmutation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
• +20 PRR
• +10 Acid and Poison Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Acid and Poison Spell Critical Damage
• Add 2d20 Acid damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

Scion of Air

• +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
• +4% Dodge, +4 to Dodge Cap
• +10 Electric Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Electric Spell Critical Damage
• Add 2d20 Electric damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

Scion of Fire

• No longer grants +25% Spell Critical Damage with all spells
• +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
• +10 PRR, +10 MRR
• +10 Fire Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Fire Spell Critical Damage
• Add 2d20 Fire damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

Scion of Water

• No longer grants +200 Maximum Spell Points
• +4 to the DCs of Evocation spells, +2 to the DCs of other spells
• +20 MRR
• +10 Cold Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Cold Spell Critical Damage
• Add 2d20 Cold damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

Scion of Feywild

• +10 Sonic Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Sonic Spell Critical Damage
• +4 to the DCs of Enchantment and Illusion spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
• Add 2d20 Sonic damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
• +20 Healing Amp

Scion of Shadowfell

• +4 to the DCs of Necromancy spells, +2 to DCs of other spells
• +10 Negative Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power, +20% Negative Spell Critical Damage. (note that the Poison Spellpower moved to the Scion of Earth feat)
• +20 Negative Amp (assuming you take healing from Negative)
• Weapon and Unarmed attacks heal you for 1d6 Positive damage, or 1d6 Negative damage if you are Undead.

Scion of Mechanus

• +20 Repair & Rust Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power, +20% Repair and Rust Spell Critical Damage
• +20 Repair Amplification (assuming you take healing from Repair)
• +10% Fortification Bypass on weapon and unarmed attacks
• Gain: Master Reconstruction, shares cooldown with Communion of Scribing

Scion of Celestia

• +20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
• +20% Positive, Light, and Alignment Spell Critical Damage
• +150 Maximum Hit Points
• +4 to Will Saves

Is it intended that none of them give force spell critical damage or was it just overlooked?

[Xaxx]

Yes, we can!

To start, something specific to Mass Frog: Mass Frog has a known, longstanding issue with its Caster Level that is important when it comes to Spell Resistance checks made when enemies have Mass Frog cast on them. Mass Frog is an Epic Class Feat (much like Favored Enemy feats are Ranger Class Feats). Spells cast from Class Feats use your Class Level for their Caster Level, which means your effective Caster Level for Mass Frog is 10, far lower than you'd need to land the spell on most relevant enemies with Spell Resistance. This is not something we can easily fix without significant reworks to the Spell system or overly-cumbersome background adjusting. The best way to make it effective again is to make it no longer be a Class Feat. That alone isn't the reason it landed in Destinies, but it is a reason we knew it needed to move.

Looking at both of these feats, they are taken way more than most of their Destiny Feat counterparts. Granted, there's a case to be made for "the other Destiny Feats aren't that good, you should bring them up instead"; in the future, we may improve the other Destiny feats but that argument doesn't change the rest of why we wanted to move these two skills. What these two feats have in common is:

1. They are available to any character (provided you have leveled the relevant Destinies once ever)
2. They are AOE, hitting many nearby enemies
3. Their effectiveness in combat is high relative to the amount of investment needed to use them (DCs needed to land them are somewhat low relative to other abilities and/or dumping DCs and relying on the occasional nat-1 is considered a worthwhile use case)
4. They're very often taken on builds whose archetypes do not match the intended archetypes of the skill.

In short, we don't feel it's healthy for the game for this kind (and strength) of ability to be available at the level of investment Epic Destiny feats currently provide, especially as you will no longer be required to complete Destiny Spheres in order to get Destiny feats when this Destiny Pass goes Live. And especially as these two feats seem to be considered mandatory right now on too many builds.

As a powerful Primal Transmutation spell, we felt the new Primal Avatar T5 was a good place for Mass Frog. You must invest in a lot of Primal Avatar (and lock out other T5s) to get it.

As a powerful Martial ability with a Tactical effect (stunning) we felt the new Legendary Dreadnought T5 was a good place for Dire Charge. You must invest in a lot of Dreadnought (and lock out other T5s) to get it.

Will this change affect some builds? Yes, definitely. However, if a build was only being held up by its access to one of these two feats, it wasn't an especially good build to begin with; and again, it's still available to any build that wants to get it out of T5 of those Destinies. It's our hope that this new system has good, accessible abilities for most (if not all) builds, and ideally you'll find a good fit in this new system somewhere to fill the role left by these feats.

So instead of every melee who wants to do anything at level 28+ above eh (cant say ee after some of the dungys they've made in the past 5 years for anyone who isnt 30+ lives deep atleast) taking one feet, your going to shove them all into one core ed... umm... this is what you do in most of the class trees, but now your gonna do this with 12 instead of 3.... oh wait you wanna get this up to 15 trees.... yeah this is such a brilliant decision... or the majority of our epic choices....wow

[Xaxx]

This would be false

you would be correct

[noinfo]

At least before Scion of Fire gave something to it.

I notice a distinct lack of it (or it maybe I am just overlooking something late in the afternoon.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Yes, we can!

To start, something specific to Mass Frog: Mass Frog has a known, longstanding issue with its Caster Level that is important when it comes to Spell Resistance checks made when enemies have Mass Frog cast on them. Mass Frog is an Epic Class Feat (much like Favored Enemy feats are Ranger Class Feats). Spells cast from Class Feats use your Class Level for their Caster Level, which means your effective Caster Level for Mass Frog is 10, far lower than you'd need to land the spell on most relevant enemies with Spell Resistance. This is not something we can easily fix without significant reworks to the Spell system or overly-cumbersome background adjusting. The best way to make it effective again is to make it no longer be a Class Feat. That alone isn't the reason it landed in Destinies, but it is a reason we knew it needed to move.

couln't you have just made it 20 + class level, since you have to be 20+ to have epic levels in the first place

[IBCrabin]

Yes, we can!

To start, something specific to Mass Frog: Mass Frog has a known, longstanding issue with its Caster Level that is important when it comes to Spell Resistance checks made when enemies have Mass Frog cast on them. Mass Frog is an Epic Class Feat (much like Favored Enemy feats are Ranger Class Feats). Spells cast from Class Feats use your Class Level for their Caster Level, which means your effective Caster Level for Mass Frog is 10, far lower than you'd need to land the spell on most relevant enemies with Spell Resistance. This is not something we can easily fix without significant reworks to the Spell system or overly-cumbersome background adjusting. The best way to make it effective again is to make it no longer be a Class Feat. That alone isn't the reason it landed in Destinies, but it is a reason we knew it needed to move.

Looking at both of these feats, they are taken way more than most of their Destiny Feat counterparts. Granted, there's a case to be made for "the other Destiny Feats aren't that good, you should bring them up instead"; in the future, we may improve the other Destiny feats but that argument doesn't change the rest of why we wanted to move these two skills. What these two feats have in common is:

1. They are available to any character (provided you have leveled the relevant Destinies once ever)
2. They are AOE, hitting many nearby enemies
3. Their effectiveness in combat is high relative to the amount of investment needed to use them (DCs needed to land them are somewhat low relative to other abilities and/or dumping DCs and relying on the occasional nat-1 is considered a worthwhile use case)
4. They're very often taken on builds whose archetypes do not match the intended archetypes of the skill.

In short, we don't feel it's healthy for the game for this kind (and strength) of ability to be available at the level of investment Epic Destiny feats currently provide, especially as you will no longer be required to complete Destiny Spheres in order to get Destiny feats when this Destiny Pass goes Live. And especially as these two feats seem to be considered mandatory right now on too many builds.

Will this change affect some builds? Yes, definitely. However, if a build was only being held up by its access to one of these two feats, it wasn't an especially good build to begin with; and again, it's still available to any build that wants to get it out of T5 of those Destinies. It's our hope that this new system has good, accessible abilities for most (if not all) builds, and ideally you'll find a good fit in this new system somewhere to fill the role left by these feats.

Originally, dire charge was a luxury and shouldn't have existed. people were just mass CCing mob and generating helpless damage. Then dire charge became a necessity because of reaper. Finding a caster to CC for a group of melee is not easy. Finding a tank with the Past lives and a healer is also not easy. The game has become so PLs dependent new players have a hard time getting into the game or feel like they are contributing in a group of Vets. Next best alternative was to use dire charge in a situation created by the numerous amount of Past lives for classes that people rarely play. If people don't have the gear nor the Past lives to make dire charge land, they default to range shiradi because nerve venom doesn't have a DC check and people can fish for paralyzing.

The problem is not the build is poorly design that people use dire charge, the problem is there isn't enough players and or people with the time to grind out all the relevant past lives to make certain support type build / class work. There is also the luxury of the helpless damage make the game progress much faster.

With all these proposed change, people will need a refined group with classes people rarely play for high skull reaper. No more using meld to "tank" a boss when there is no tank around. No more spamming dire charge from multiple players to CC when there is no caster around.

People playing this game for a while want to do content at a relatively fast pace because of the PL grind. slowing people down every few update isn't very motivating and encouraging for them to play.

[LightBear]

What about Scion of Arborea?
What about adding a Mastery of ... aimed at warlocks and that isn't granting +10 levels for 3 spells?
(I can't speak for others but personally I think the warlock options of having extra pact dice come in late/wronglevel and could use a boost of +5% universal crit chance when you have both feats.)
Specifically because Warlocks can be all over the place with their spell powers, adding a new Scion of The Universe (Yes that is a He-Man reference) could open up some, though most pacts all ready have this somewhat covered. Removing the +25% crit damage from scion of fire is hurting this class and they don't have any real alternatives.
And yes I do know warlocks can get the highest crit spell damage, but all they have is a cantrip and not the best of spellpowers (like less then half of that of other classes.)


All over the place for warlock spell powers:
Pact is a choice of its own
Light from Enlighted Spirit
And force that can be replaced

[Anuulified]

This sounds like it will make use of Legendary Dreadnought pretty much obligatory for any melee. Unless Dire Charge becomes less uniquely powerful I guess, by either nerfing it or bringing up other mass CC abilities

EDIT: and they nerfed its dc by 5 and made it a tier 5 ability so you not only have to dip into Dreadnought to get it, you have to max it, to the exclusion of anything else

You missed this part too, "If an ability in a new Epic Destiny uses a DC, it follows this formula: 20 + (highest of int/wis/cha if a spell, highest of str/dex/con if a purely physical ability, highest of all ability scores if otherwise/both) + (spell school bonus if it's a spell, appropriate DC boost such as Sunder or Trip if not, includes things like Breath Weapon if it's a Breath Weapon, etc)"

Many people will lose a lot more then 5 DC with Dire Charge, because it is "purely physical". Another thumb in the eye nerf from SSG, because other melee stat playstyles should be punished. Stop letting us preview this, whatever you call it, and just make the changes already. Lord knows they will likely be broke to begin with on the live servers for the players to figure out.

[Komradkillingmachine]

As a powerful Primal Transmutation spell, we felt the new Primal Avatar T5 was a good place for Mass Frog. You must invest in a lot of Primal Avatar (and lock out other T5s) to get it.

As a powerful Martial ability with a Tactical effect (stunning) we felt the new Legendary Dreadnought T5 was a good place for Dire Charge. You must invest in a lot of Dreadnought (and lock out other T5s) to get it.

Will this change affect some builds? Yes, definitely. However, if a build was only being held up by its access to one of these two feats, it wasn't an especially good build to begin with; and again, it's still available to any build that wants to get it out of T5 of those Destinies. It's our hope that this new system has good, accessible abilities for most (if not all) builds, and ideally you'll find a good fit in this new system somewhere to fill the role left by these feats.

Locking out Dire Charge and Mass Frog behind T5 makes them level 30 abilities compared to level 29 and level 28 on live.

This change would be more acceptable if they were locked out behind T4 of their respective EDs in the new system.
You know, so that the players can still use them once they reach level 28-29 after U51 goes live...

[Anuulified]

Epic Skill Focus (all skills)
Removed from the game!

Does this mean we no longer will have a way to increase our skills in game past level 20? This reads like a straight nerf of -10 to all skills.

[Iriale]

Epic Skill Focus (all skills)
Removed from the game!

Does this mean we no longer will have a way to increase our skills in game past level 20? This reads like a straight nerf of -10 to all skills.

I had interpreted it as eliminating the skill feats that you could actively select at every three character levels, not the passive achieved at each epic level, but now that you say it I don't see that they say that they add increase to skills with each epic level. I don't know if it's an oversight or another ninja nerf.

[Vish]

In short, we don't feel it's healthy for the game for this kind (and strength) of ability to be available at the level of investment Epic Destiny feats currently provide, especially as you will no longer be required to complete Destiny Spheres in order to get Destiny feats when this Destiny Pass goes Live.
And especially as these two feats seem to be considered mandatory right now on too many builds.

mandatory because there arent good choices
this is your design, your effort
we need buttons that help, not fluff

all this nerfage is because you havent given us better choices
things that are effective get used
things that arent effective dont get used

the unintended consequences are we find what works best
even if that means making a WISDOM ROGUE
because we die alot
and we need stuff that helps us not die
and we worked with what you gave us

please, no feigned ignorance

again, you needed better feats

im not liking how u guys play god

[count_spicoli]

So PTHF grants 30% strikethru 10 melee power and 25% more damage with ability attribute and PTWF grants 5% doublestrike. REALLY? Not to mention you put twf bonuses in Fury up against adrenaline which EVERY SINGLE MELEE WILL TAKE NO MATTER WHAT PLAYSTYLE. Seems like twf again getting no love. If you guys hate the playstyle that much why not just remove it from game?

[HungarianRhapsody]

A friend told me that Epic Destiny changes were being previewed and that I should check it out. I did and it looks like massive nerfs all around for many/most builds. If that was intentional, I guess that's fine? If you want leveling in Epics to be harder, then mission accomplished. Looks like a lot of power is now missing at cap too.

Was that intentional?

[Stoner81]

Epic Skill Focus (all skills)
Removed from the game!

Does this mean we no longer will have a way to increase our skills in game past level 20? This reads like a straight nerf of -10 to all skills.

You are thinking of 2 different things as I understand it.

Epic Skills is what all players get and is what grants +10 to all skills at level 30.

Epic Skill Focus are the feats that you can take to boost your skills further but to my knowledge nobody takes them.

Stoner81.

[dkyle]

As a powerful Martial ability with a Tactical effect (stunning) we felt the new Legendary Dreadnought T5 was a good place for Dire Charge. You must invest in a lot of Dreadnought (and lock out other T5s) to get it.

Will this change affect some builds? Yes, definitely. However, if a build was only being held up by its access to one of these two feats, it wasn't an especially good build to begin with; and again, it's still available to any build that wants to get it out of T5 of those Destinies. It's our hope that this new system has good, accessible abilities for most (if not all) builds, and ideally you'll find a good fit in this new system somewhere to fill the role left by these feats.

Fair enough, but can you please not lockout mental-stat melee from it? Surely giving up a T5 Fatesinger, or other caster-oriented ED is enough?

[IBCrabin]

You are thinking of 2 different things as I understand it.

Epic Skills is what all players get and is what grants +10 to all skills at level 30.

Epic Skill Focus are the feats that you can take to boost your skills further but to my knowledge nobody takes them.

Stoner81.

People take them for a tank build to increase the intim skill. Other playstyle not so much.

Side note: Tanks are such a boring class to play in DDO and annoying to level. They will have to do a huge revamp on tanking tree and gear to make them fun to play and easier to level beside holding shield block and intim when they become a necessity for at cap legendary reaper quests.

Nothing more fun than piking a tank through heroic content and or make them buy a LR heart to change to a different build when they reach level 30.

[Justicesar]

While possessing all 12 Arcane Epic Past Life Feats, you gain a total 12% Absorption of Acid, Cold, Electric, and Fire damage

While possessing all 12 Divine Epic Past Life Feats, you gain a total of 36 PRR.

While possessing all 12 Martial Epic Past Life Feats, you gain a total 24 AC at level 1, increased to 36 at level 10, 48 at level 20, and 60 at level 30.

While possessing all 12 Primal Epic Past Life Feats, you gain a total of 36 maximum HP at level 1, increased to 84 at level 10, 132 at level 20, and 180 at level 30.

Regarding the above....is it still worth anything??

Currently I have maybe half of each in a Sphere.<<< Is this basically enough to get max points with the new system??

I have 2 past lives left for 3x Heroic completionist and was going to crank out the above to cap Epic.

I unfortunately will not be able to check out Lamania server, thus can not verify any of the notes.

Sorry if this has been covered, but the release notes are taking a bit to soak in.

Thanks

[Lynnabel]

While possessing all 12 Arcane Epic Past Life Feats, you gain a total 12% Absorption of Acid, Cold, Electric, and Fire damage

While possessing all 12 Divine Epic Past Life Feats, you gain a total of 36 PRR.

While possessing all 12 Martial Epic Past Life Feats, you gain a total 24 AC at level 1, increased to 36 at level 10, 48 at level 20, and 60 at level 30.

While possessing all 12 Primal Epic Past Life Feats, you gain a total of 36 maximum HP at level 1, increased to 84 at level 10, 132 at level 20, and 180 at level 30.

Regarding the above....is it still worth anything??

Currently I have maybe half of each in a Sphere.<<< Is this basically enough to get max points with the new system??

I have 2 past lives left for 3x Heroic completionist and was going to crank out the above to cap Epic.

I unfortunately will not be able to check out Lamania server, thus can not verify any of the notes.

Sorry if this has been covered, but the release notes are taking a bit to soak in.

Thanks

None of the benefits of the Epic Past lives are changing, with the exception of the ratio of Past Lives to Fate Points. This ratio has been increased, meaning you earn more Fate Points for each Past Life. Everything else is exactly the same.