U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Core Framework

[Certon]

You may not be able to make the SAME decisions you could in the past, but might you not be able to make better ones?

Taking a wide range of upgrades from three trees might be better than taking 3, 4 or 5 or whatever abilities from several but having all the rest of your choices restricted to the one destiny you are in.

I like the wide choice from three trees better. It is also shiny and new.

As I've pointed out elsewhere, the biggest problem in altering the EDs so dramatically is that human beings bought Epic Destinites based upon its paradigm.

Imagine, if you will, EDs as a classic muscle car--not the most efficient, but powerful, and eye-catching.

They are taking the muscle car away and replacing it with a Tesla. Sure, it's still a car, and it may have a better acceleration curve, but it isn't what they bought. What they bought is being switched out for something they may not have bought. Sure, they got use out of the muscle car, but they wanted to keep it and didn't want the "upgrade."

MONEY. WAS. SPENT.

And to some, what they bought is just going to be COMPLETELY gone.

[Deadlock]

As I've pointed out elsewhere, the biggest problem in altering the EDs so dramatically is that human beings bought Epic Destinites based upon its paradigm.

I got it with MotU. If it's getting changed 9 years later, I'll roll with it.

The idea of changing the UI to be consistent with Reaper and Heroic Enhancements makes perfect sense. Especially if they follow it up with new ED's sooner rather than later.

Not convinced that I like the idea of a tree with 3 cores with the teaser that there's more to come with Legendary levels 30+, I'd have preferred them to keep Epic stuff for Epic levels and then introduce Legendary stuff for Legendary levels.

[Monkeytoe]

So never having to run in an off-destiny is a nerf?

I think the original idea was that players would TR and run in a destiny appropriate to whichever life they were in, but they screwed up destiny access and ignored the oversight for... when did MoTU come out? ...years. Maybe they could just fix that.

What this does is it makes a lvl 30 completionist ETR 19 points more powerful than a lvl 30 with no ETRs compared to ONE SINGLE TWIST more powerful than the no-ETR lvl 30 as it is now (PRR from ETRs not being at issue here because AFAIK that's not changing).

So yep, if you're in favor of massively increasing the disparity between no ETR and full ETR characters, this is definitely the way to go, good job!

I'm not. I'm with Certon and Fixbows and who-ever else isn't in favor of increasing that disparity.
Anyone else that isn't in favor better speak up. I don't know what difference it would make, but its better to have said what you think before it happens and keep playing knowing you tried than to just give up and move on.

[Faltout]

A couple of reasons off the top of my head...

I twist from more than 3 trees. Proposed system is you are locked into 3 trees only. For me, I run in Shiradi, twist: Cocoon from Primal, Enchant spell school specialist from Magister, sense weakness from FoTW, Dance of Flowers from GMoF, and Grim Precision from Shadowdancer.

Cannot do that under the new proposed system.

There are a LOT of wasted points just to get something maybe you twisted in the past or simply are not used in your build (just to get to the next tier). If they want to make this more user friendly, they need to ditch the 'Trees' and just regroup based on combat styles. Melee, Ranged, Caster. Make the trees bigger. Like several more columns and rows to fit all the things they want to do This way you can choose what works best for you. This would allow you specialize in your characters build but yet still be able to pick a secondary or tertiary tree to support (if you need). This way you actually get things (or most of the things) you want instead of being extremely limited by the 3 tree only approach.

Alright. First of all, we don't have a view of the new destiny trees yet. We had a first pass, but they scrapped that because players did not like the builder/enhancer/spender mechanic.

However, let me convert your build to the new build you would have under those hypothetical new destiny trees.

Your current build:
Shiradi
Primal - Cocoon (healing)
enchant spell school specialist - magister (+3 enchantment)
sense weakness - FotW (+30% damage to helpless targets)
Dance of Flowers - GmoF (+1[W] to weapon attacks)
Grim Precision - Shadowdancer (15% fort and 3% dodge bypass)

Your future build:
- Shiradi (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...iradi-Champion).
Shiradi Magic (T3): contains +3 enchantment DC so no reason to get spell school specialist from magister.
Fey Favor (core 1): +1 spell DC per core. More enchantment DC you didn't previously get.
Control (T5): +1/2/3 to all Spell DCs. Even more enchantment DC for you.
Vision (T3): Your attacks have Ghost Touch and you bypass 5% dodge and fortification. If you have the Holy Strike feat, double the dodge and fortification bypass. So better dodge bypass than shadowdancer, worse fort bypass but stay tuned for more.
- Fury of the Wild (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ry-of-the-Wild).
Mantle of Fury (T1): Fury of the Wild Destiny Mantle: You deal +5/10/15% damage against helpless targets. First 15% to helpless targets.
Sense Weakness (T4): +2/4/6% Fortification Bypass. Your Fury of the Wild Destiny Mantle grants you an additional 5/10/15% extra damage to helpless targets. There goes more fort bypass (up to 11% or 16% if you have the holy strike epic feat). Also the rest 15% to helpless targets bringing it to 30%.

This leaves healing and the +1[W]. You can choose Primal Avatar for the cocoon if you want, or go with something like Exalted Angel or Divine Crusader for the Consecrated Ground. Fury of the Wild also has passive healing and Shiradi has Healing Spring so if it was self-healing you were after, you are covered. The +1[W] is negligible given it's just another 1d8 of damage. Having Fury of the Wild as an extra destiny means you already have more extra damage than 1d8.

Cannot do that under the new proposed system.

I beg to differ...

[Shavron]

This is boring and is bound to make the game even more boring.
You are supposed to make the game better not worse.

[achaius]

Are they still doing the those clunky spender charge things? I feel HW is kinda clunky, and this looks much worse.

[noinfo]

With the next preview of u51 about to rear its ugly head I would like devs to consider that since we are losing Twists and are having a simple easy to use system forcibly replaced with a massive ER grindfest to look at-

Keep ER the same giving a bonus past lives but divorce the need for ER from the accumulation of extra points by instead building up and spending karma without the need to ER.

With the current system you only really need to ER for pastlives as you can get most of your twists without an endless cycle. This can be partly maintained by having people accumulate destiny points or whatever they are called by spending x amount of karma or autmatically every x amount of epic xp gaining a point. This has 0 impact on those who want to TR or ER as they still accumulate the points anyway.

Overall I still do not like the new system and what it bodes for us. This could very well be a game ender. But not having to constant spam ER's and accumulate power via xp instead would remove one of my overall pet hates of the new system.

[donblas]

With the next preview of u51 about to rear its ugly head I would like devs to consider that since we are losing Twists and are having a simple easy to use system forcibly replaced with a massive ER grindfest to look at-

Aren't they replacing twists with the ability to use three whole trees?

Aren't the clunky and not very intuitive twists being replaced by being able to use three trees in the same easily understood way as enhancements work?

Aren't they abolishing the need to level off-densities - which was totally unfun?

In what way was the whole destiny sphere/karma/fate points for twists thing "simple easy to use" compared to a simple enhancement tree approach?

And why is the new system "grindy"? A character hits lvl 20 and gets free destiny points and spends them, just like APs. It then levels, gaining more. No grind.

[Pandjed]

Aren't they replacing twists with the ability to use three whole trees?

"But... but they share the same kind of points! I mean, that would mean, that I actually have to decide how much I go into each destiny, instead of shoehorning any ability I want from another tree as a twist, using an entirely different set of points!"

Aren't the clunky and not very intuitive twists being replaced by being able to use three trees in the same easily understood way as enhancements work?

"But... but this would mean, that my destnies are now more tied to levels! I won't be able to twist in something at lvl 20 at its full power!"

Aren't they abolishing the need to level off-densities - which was totally unfun?

"But... but I already did that and never considered those playing alts or new players! Why should I care about things I don't need to do anymore!?"

In what way was the whole destiny sphere/karma/fate points for twists thing "simple easy to use" compared to a simple enhancement tree approach?

"But... but I know the new system, so it's already easy to me! If I know both systems well, it doesn't matter at all that there are two!"

And why is the new system "grindy"? A character hits lvl 20 and gets free destiny points and spends them, just like APs. It then levels, gaining more. No grind.

"But... but I demand to get all the benefits that long-time players get and want all that destiny points I get by ETRing instead right off the bat!"

OK, now less dramatic and more on point. I abhor the current system (just that you know where I come from) and welcome the new one in general, though there are some unfortunate things, many of them stemming from the old system (plus some independant, but what's perfect anyway).

I mean, if the level cap was 20, the old system would make sense. You cap your class and then start leveling your destiny instead. Yet this is not how the game developed. I'd prefer that epic destinies would be classes, so we could swap out the "Epic" class and have one main tree, and then would be able to have some "twist trees" that are less loaded and have fewer tiers. Could make some story points easier, like in Make Believe that the guards will auto-trust you, because you're a Shiradi Champion (who holds some authority of the Summer Court).
But at this state, the devs can't and have to work with things like changeable destinies, fate points as a concept, epic completionist, and the like.


As many humans like to "complete" (basically everything), it looks rather disheartening to have to make that many ETRs to get all destiny points, as it's a much harder benefit than being able to twist in higher tiers (as you at least can get all slots after 12 ETRs). That may be something to look into it, but still better than using the old system.

[donblas]

Panjed - Nice response - funny too!

[noinfo]

Aren't they replacing twists with the ability to use three whole trees?

Aren't the clunky and not very intuitive twists being replaced by being able to use three trees in the same easily understood way as enhancements work?

Aren't they abolishing the need to level off-densities - which was totally unfun?

In what way was the whole destiny sphere/karma/fate points for twists thing "simple easy to use" compared to a simple enhancement tree approach?

And why is the new system "grindy"? A character hits lvl 20 and gets free destiny points and spends them, just like APs. It then levels, gaining more. No grind.

Whole trees? Um no, what you can spend, in those trees massively limited by the number of points you don't have until you have ER a million times. Yes those people who are complaining about having to fill out a few spheres don't know what grind is going to be, but you know I will wait for complaints.

Off desitinies? Apart from the easy ptw for them, leveling an ED only ever has to be done once to get the full benefit from twists. Let me know how this work out for you.

Easy to use? Absolutely how hard can it be to you know, select the ability and choose a twist at a relevant level? Not rocket science by any means, oh and how limited to not be able to switch ED between quests if you want to change roles. Good luck with the new set up.

Why is it grindy? Really not hard to see why, wait until you have to grind life after life for points instead of actually doing it once and unlocking most of it with the current system.



Under the new system you mean you can gain more without TR/ER please enlighten me.

What is going to be funny is the people who think they will be better off will actually be the ones worse off. Good luck.

[noinfo]

"But... but they share the same kind of points! I mean, that would mean, that I actually have to decide how much I go into each destiny, instead of shoehorning any ability I want from another tree as a twist, using an entirely different set of points!"


"But... but this would mean, that my destnies are now more tied to levels! I won't be able to twist in something at lvl 20 at its full power!"


"But... but I already did that and never considered those playing alts or new players! Why should I care about things I don't need to do anymore!?"


"But... but I know the new system, so it's already easy to me! If I know both systems well, it doesn't matter at all that there are two!"


"But... but I demand to get all the benefits that long-time players get and want all that destiny points I get by ETRing instead right off the bat!"

OK, now less dramatic and more on point. I abhor the current system (just that you know where I come from) and welcome the new one in general, though there are some unfortunate things, many of them stemming from the old system (plus some independant, but what's perfect anyway).

I mean, if the level cap was 20, the old system would make sense. You cap your class and then start leveling your destiny instead. Yet this is not how the game developed. I'd prefer that epic destinies would be classes, so we could swap out the "Epic" class and have one main tree, and then would be able to have some "twist trees" that are less loaded and have fewer tiers. Could make some story points easier, like in Make Believe that the guards will auto-trust you, because you're a Shiradi Champion (who holds some authority of the Summer Court).
But at this state, the devs can't and have to work with things like changeable destinies, fate points as a concept, epic completionist, and the like.


As many humans like to "complete" (basically everything), it looks rather disheartening to have to make that many ETRs to get all destiny points, as it's a much harder benefit than being able to twist in higher tiers (as you at least can get all slots after 12 ETRs). That may be something to look into it, but still better than using the old system.

This is funny because on my main I have pretty much everything. The people that are currently in favour of the new system many believe it will benefit newer players, this includes the devs, it won't.

The new system is no where near as good as the current system I just accept the fact that the devs are committed to it regardless. To be honest if they really want to level gate stuff, no worries, but the new form is just something that holds no interest in its current form.

[Pandjed]

The people that are currently in favour of the new system many believe it will benefit newer players, this includes the devs, it won't.

Any arguments for this thesis? Would especially love one, that looks at the new player without comparing them with more versed players. <3

The new system is no where near as good as the current system I just accept the fact that the devs are committed to it regardless. To be honest if they really want to level gate stuff, no worries, but the new form is just something that holds no interest in its current form.

Like I said before, I abhor the current system, so of course I see the new one as better (very flawed, but still better). At least it doesn't break the flow of the character progression (though at least some, if not many ppl regard playing epics as "when the game really starts" which is a problem in itself imo), is easier to learn for new players (as it's based on heroic progression), and as long as the devs rebalance lower epics to adept the new power curve (like they said), might finally result in lvl 20 epic quests not being harder than most lvl 23-25.


EDIT: And I absolutely see the difference in destiny points between new characters and old characters as something, which can quickly get out of hand. Which is why I think the broader instead deeper approach to EDs the devs talked about... somewhere... may be better, if they continue this way.

[donblas]

1) Whole trees? Um no, what you can spend, in those trees massively limited by the number of points you don't have until you have ER a million times. Yes those people who are complaining about having to fill out a few spheres don't know what grind is going to be, but you know I will wait for complaints.

2) Off desitinies? Apart from the easy ptw for them, leveling an ED only ever has to be done once to get the full benefit from twists. Let me know how this work out for you.

3) Easy to use? Absolutely how hard can it be to you know, select the ability and choose a twist at a relevant level? Not rocket science by any means, oh and how limited to not be able to switch ED between quests if you want to change roles. Good luck with the new set up.

4) Why is it grindy? Really not hard to see why, wait until you have to grind life after life for points instead of actually doing it once and unlocking most of it with the current system.



5) Under the new system you mean you can gain more without TR/ER please enlighten me.

What is going to be funny is the people who think they will be better off will actually be the ones worse off. Good luck.

1) One can access three trees. Of course one cannot get full benefit from three trees straight away, but one can at present benefit from one tree plus a few twists. I don't grind.
2) Off destinies are pointless - except once you have enough fate points to twist in what you want.
3) Examine all the destiny trees. Find out what you need. Work out how many fate points you need to unlock the twists. Level the necessary off density. get the fate points. twist. How dull.
As opposed to look at the new trees. Do what you've already done in getting enhancement points in heroic. Simple. easy
4) I don't grind. So i won't.
5) Under the new system my character that hits 20 will be better off than at present. It will get several destiny points.

[noinfo]

1) One can access three trees. Of course one cannot get full benefit from three trees straight away, but one can at present benefit from one tree plus a few twists. I don't grind.
2) Off destinies are pointless - except once you have enough fate points to twist in what you want.
3) Examine all the destiny trees. Find out what you need. Work out how many fate points you need to unlock the twists. Level the necessary off density. get the fate points. twist. How dull.
As opposed to look at the new trees. Do what you've already done in getting enhancement points in heroic. Simple. easy
4) I don't grind. So i won't.
5) Under the new system my character that hits 20 will be better off than at present. It will get several destiny points.

2. You do this exactly once ever. Not hard not even an effort.
3. So now your group needs a tank for a LH run. Nothing to big but you know enough to be able to survive. Its ok I will switch things around and go US. U51, crickets. Now that is dull. Oh look new trees, um ok, cool, the same as heroic so nothing compelling. Simple + Easy != good by itself.
4. Your choice.
5. It must be a first life or first run into epic so good luck.