U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Core Framework

[Cernunan]

If people hadn't, devs wouldn't have seen how much people were enjoying epic moments.

I am still gobsmacked by that revelation.

It really does proved the devs are completely out of touch with the actual player base, and are making changes with some other reason in mind

[redoubt]

I still think that Shadowdancer should be split into two different Destinies. The caster stuff could be moved to a Shadow Magic tree. Though that something I would like to see for Iconic Sorcerer even though technically is not Iconic thing for Sorcerer.

Good idea. Even as an assassin, I'm finding the new SD tree weak and wasteful.

[Zafaron]

In the first draft of the Epic Overhaul (the one mentioned in Cordovan's post above the question about reset costs), one of the features we considered was something similar to this, and we did investigations into the scope and cost of implementation. Unfortunately, it's colossal. It's something that could potentially be implemented someday, but is far outside the scope of what we can do as part of this Epic Destiny pass at this time.

Out of curiosity where is the cost coming from for this? Do you have to do all of your game programming on a scripting layer rather than working with the engine directly?

[Propane]

We know how to implement it, there are a few different potential approaches including things similar to what you posted here. All of them have a development time for Engineering larger than the rest of the Epic Destiny revamp combined. Like I said: Could happen someday, won't happen for U51.

Ouch - thanks for the response

[Merrillman]

Except everything he posted are know changed which will happen.
You are telling him he is wrong because he hasn't seen things that HAVE NOT BEEN POSTED YET.

He has concerns about the game he has invested time and money. The changes posted are all negative to his build , they have shown nothing to assuage his doubts and irritation.

Maybe stop defending a company which has proven over and over again it will crush player's fun and builds without regard to player's happiness, usually to make money

Thank you. I appreciate the support. I DO very much hope I’m wrong. I have everyone in my whole group saying this is BS and they’ll be done if this stands. I simply cannot believe “they are listening” because NOTHING I have ever seen players really ask for has been met with anything but nerfing. Prove me wrong. Prove us all wrong. That’s the level of trust I have after many, many nerfs of late. It’s always “take away” and never make anything lately BETTER and give us MORE. Taking away all the money I’ve spent is what this equates to — and I will post an apology loudly and from the rooftops if I am dead wrong —stealing all of my money, time, and effort over many years. That’s decidedly NOT a good feeling. Don’t give me this balance nonsense either, because if the game was “balanced” everyone would be equally survivable even at low level, and that’s just not even close to the case. Balance is a “catchall” to justify literally anything to couch it in some noble reasoning that just is nonsense.

[neain2008]

4: Monster and content difficulty

This debut on Lamannia didn't make it explicit enough that we are making big changes to the difficulty of monsters built for older Epic content quests. We're going to make sure monster stats take these changes into account. For comparison, switching a monster in older Epics to our new formulas often results in a loss of Maximum HP anywhere from 25 - 50%, depending on the individual monster's quirks. We will have more information about our monster adjustments in the next Epic Destiny Preview.

As long as this is done well, it addresses 90-95% of my personal worries about the trees. (though I'm also in the group of change for changes sake as long as its not total trash)

6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System

The overwhelming majority of the feedback has been centered on this, which is why we wanted to take some extra time and discuss our options with this system internally before committing to something. We're looking at several paths to follow, some which make the system less time sensitive, and some that cut it completely. The "charge" system as a whole is not formally necessary for this Epic Destiny overhaul, so if we need to we can move in a different direction.

I think the biggest issue (for me at least) is that the builders need to be as good or better than what we got getting to epics, and the spenders need to be better. not just numbers-wise, but also speed, cooldown and effect-wise.

If I got caster builder SLAs in the caster trees that replace some of my other abilities (like I will replace fireball with DBF once it shows up), and the spenders take the place/power level of things like the current energy burst, that would be worthwhile and enhance gameplay. (despite the fact that we would need to keep track of b/s points)

[red_kain]

1: Epic and Destiny feats
I would love to see an overhaul on heroic and epic feats that are mostly unused. Anything to make more viable choices.

2: Returning Abilities
I dunno, I feel you communicated dire charge and tsunami changes well enough. Better communication is always good though.

3: What belongs in Tier 5
I don't really have feedback on this, without seeing the trees that weren't in the preview, it is hard to give feedback on this. Epic moments are fun!
Also see further down (Legendary destinies).

4: Monster and content difficulty
I'm all for this. Bloated HP bars aren't great.

5: Ranged Power
I would be more concerned about having ranged power in more cores, than increasing the number cores give. It would be unpleasant to only get ranged power from 2 of the destiny trees you use.

6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System
Please ditch it, or at least increase duration to 30 seconds (even better if they don't have a duration and just last until used). 10 seconds pushes zerg playstyle hard, which is bad imo.

7: Initial Destiny Points
No real feedback here.

Question: Can you tell us about the other Destiny Trees you have planned?
I really hope you have base damage increases for warlock in that destiny. Make it T5 or whatever but ya.

Question: Are you doing this so you can build Legendary Destinies?

If you are not doing some sort of legendary destiny system, perhaps it would be best to consider planning for T6/T7 epic destiny abilities now. Design and add them in later as level cap increases, but plan the destiny UI/redesign for such a possibility now.

[Madja]

This was meant as a point of comparison so that you'd be able to estimate the rest of the statistics. It won't be the only thing changing about those monsters.

Any chance we'll see stat-reduction be useful in epics? I really love the idea of lowing the enemy's attributes, but when they regenerate them in seconds it feels kind of pointless.

[elvesunited]

Lets say it again for the people in the back...

THIS IS NOT THE FINAL VERSION OF THE NEW ED SYSTEM. THEY HAVE NOT PREVIEWED ALL THE TREES.

People need to pump the breaks on the doom-crying. The devs have posted over and over how this in not the final preview, there will be more to come, not all the trees are out.... and even more importantly, that things are changing. It is obvious from all the posts that they are listening to our feedback and actively making changes. Look at all the dev responses here. They ARE LISTENING. This is amazing communication and feedback, something we as a player base have been asking for for years.

I thought this actually went well. Devs have acknowledged the flaws in Shadowdancer, Grandmaster, and Shiradi. The charge system will either be changed or abandoned. I do believe that Tier 5 should become usable before 30 but time will tell. And it looks like they're going to be adding more power to the destinies. Probably one of the most productive Lamannia previews I've ever seen.

Your caster will be fine. They said that Magister is getting redesigned into a new tree. We have yet to see any of the caster focused trees. Lets wait to we see those before crying about caster "nerfs".

That's not quite accurate. Magus of the Eclipse is a new caster tree with a different theme. It isn't Magister re-designed.

[Tuxedoman96]

6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System

The overwhelming majority of the feedback has been centered on this, which is why we wanted to take some extra time and discuss our options with this system internally before committing to something. We're looking at several paths to follow, some which make the system less time sensitive, and some that cut it completely. The "charge" system as a whole is not formally necessary for this Epic Destiny overhaul, so if we need to we can move in a different direction.

I for one don't mind having a charge system, but I do think that it isn't necessary to have it be applied to every destiny. At the very least I'd remove the decay aspect from the charges. Tainted Scholar and Occult Slayer are in my opinion good examples of trees that are based around charge systems. You build up charges with a particular set of actions (hitting monsters with eldritch blasts and spells or hitting monsters with your melee weapon), but the charges are permanent until you shrine (or for OS until you are slain) or you expend them, whichever comes first. And then there are several abilities that use this pool instead of just one in both of those trees (and that specifically require charges to use), so there's still careful tactical consideration in using those abilities.

[tanuki013]

Why did you remove Melee power from Primal Avater's core?
Doesn't Druid need Melee power?

Why did you add Spell DC to Shadow dancer?
Rogue need Spell DC?

What are you thinking?

[Lence]

6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System
The overwhelming majority of the feedback has been centered on this, which is why we wanted to take some extra time and discuss our options with this system internally before committing to something. We're looking at several paths to follow, some which make the system less time sensitive, and some that cut it completely. The "charge" system as a whole is not formally necessary for this Epic Destiny overhaul, so if we need to we can move in a different direction.

That's the best news I've heard from this. Personally, I hope it just cut completely, but thats a personal preference for my passive play style and hating the clicky game (I can just not play epics so its not deal breaking, but still). Glad at least its not so deeply woven into the fabric of time its a done deal as I had previously assumed. That was my personal #1 dislike of the update. Other than that, the only other thing I usually gripe about is anything that pushes DDO towards cookie cutter builds, because having build freedom and versatility is the only thing that sets DDO apart from other MMOs for the most part for me. I at least look forward to see where everything ends up landing and go from there.

[Zdevor]

Howdy folks! We've been hard at work reading and absorbing all of the feedback you have given us over the last week, and we wanted to share more about what we have been discussing. The following was put together by the folks working on these systems as a group, and I'm just posting their work, really:


We have more previews coming up shortly, but as a reminder, these previews are for Update 50, which is a different update than Update 51, which is the update with the Epic Destiny rework. What this means is that although we are still going to be iterating and building the ED framework behind the scenes, you won't get a chance to see it in action until likely after Update 50 launches.


So, without further ado, here's what we've got to share today:


1: Epic and Destiny feats

We started out this revamp assuming that we'd be able to proxy buff a ton of the old Epic and Destiny feats by adding in bonuses tied to the new ED abilities. It looks like we need to do more to make those feats more enticing. We can dedicate some time to revamp the lesser used options beyond making them tie in to the trees, and the tree tie-ins themselves can stand to be far punchier as well.


2: Returning Abilities

One of our bigger goals with this system was to complete a reorganization of some of the assorted Epic abilities into more appropriate places. This could be as complicated as moving all of the Smite Evil attacks from one tree to another, or as simple as ensuring that some cut abilities can end up somewhere appropriate. For example, the Tsunami spell is going to end up joining the Druid spell book rather than simply being removed forever. What we can do in the future is do a much better job of communicating when certain abilities will make a return, either as a feat, a class spell, or even in a new Epic Destiny down the line.


3: What belongs in Tier 5

A large amount of feedback thus far has been centered around the question of what belongs in tier 5. Our initial judgement was that things that were roughly tier 5 or 6 in the old destinies belonged in tier 5 of the new destinies. After this first preview, we've changed our minds considerably for quite a few abilities. Given that players will only get access to their tier 5 at level 30, we need each Tier 5 to contain either almost entirely new things or things that are too powerful to not remain exclusive, and let some tier 5/6 abilities pull downwards so that players can access them far sooner.


On that note, one of the most unexpected pieces of feedback for us was just how much love there was for the concept of an Epic Moment. With that in mind, we can do a better job ensuring that each tree has a T5 ability that matches those expectations, although we want to spend more time discussing internally before committing to that kind of redesign.


4: Monster and content difficulty

This debut on Lamannia didn't make it explicit enough that we are making big changes to the difficulty of monsters built for older Epic content quests. We're going to make sure monster stats take these changes into account. For comparison, switching a monster in older Epics to our new formulas often results in a loss of Maximum HP anywhere from 25 - 50%, depending on the individual monster's quirks. We will have more information about our monster adjustments in the next Epic Destiny Preview.


5: Ranged Power

We initially ballparked the amount of Ranged Power per core at 6. It's clear that this is not enough, so we'll be raising the Ranged Power per core to 8.


6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System

The overwhelming majority of the feedback has been centered on this, which is why we wanted to take some extra time and discuss our options with this system internally before committing to something. We're looking at several paths to follow, some which make the system less time sensitive, and some that cut it completely. The "charge" system as a whole is not formally necessary for this Epic Destiny overhaul, so if we need to we can move in a different direction.


7: Initial Destiny Points

A change we will be making internally that we wanted to tell you all right now about is that we will be raising the amount of Fate Points gained for each tree unlock to 3 from 2. This means that each Epic Destiny tree you unlock by speaking to the appropriate NPC will grant you 1 Permanent Destiny Points (because 3 fate points = 1 destiny point). This also means that the default starting point pool is 12 (from the 12 trees). We're going to experiment with this and see how it feels, and you'll likely get a chance to try out this higher starting point in the next Epic Destiny preview.

So, that's about it for this feedback response post right now, although we did want to end with answering a few Frequently Asked Questions just to be sure we're not making things overly confusing.


Question: Do the cores in each tree stack?

Answer: Yes! Everything but the Spell DCs specifically in each tree stacks with every other tree.

Question: What's happening to Epic Past Lives?

Answer: Every past life currently available will remain available after this overhaul. The only thing changing with Epic Past Lives is that you will get more Fate Points for your past lives. Also, going forward, you will no longer need to level up an Epic Destiny and gain Karma XP to Epic Reincarnate.

Question: Can you tell us about the other Destiny Trees you have planned?


Answer: They are thematically connected to Artificer, Alchemist, and Warlock (three classes whose mechanics and archetypes didn't get much specific love from the original ED system), and are not slated to be released in Update 51 with the initial set of 12 Epic Destinies.


Question: Are you doing this so you can build Legendary Destinies?

Answer: No, we are not. Funnily enough, the first paper draft of the epic overhaul from over a year ago involved something similar, but we opted to overhaul the current EDs instead due to internal feedback and feedback from the Player's Council. These new Destinies are built to scale with a huge number of points, and we're confident that allowing players to become more powerful within this system is a more compelling system of progression than pushing them to an entirely new one for Legendary content.

Question: Are you going to do anything about Reset Costs for the new EDs?


Answer: Yes, we are. Ideally any system doesn't completely bankrupt your character if you would like to spend your point differently. We will have more details once we finalize how the new cost to reset is structured.

Well, that's all we have for right now, although we still want to hear from you about how you feel about this overhaul. Please feel welcome to share your feedback with us!

Glad to read that SSG has opened its ears and eyes and would like to communicate with the playerbase. THIS IS AWESOME!!!
Lots of positive things are in the U50 post. The hope is there DDO wont commit a suicide. Keep on goin that way SSG!!! Communicate!

I can get along with everything in the updates but the Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System. This is simply a NO GO! Changeing permanetly playstyle in a bad way, no thanks!
I would still see more CC options for melees in the adequate ED trees. At the lower Tiers too!!!
I havent seen the Arti ED tree yet, but I hope it will be equally built for melee/catser/ranged Artis.
Multiselector would solve tons of problems in the ED trees.
Also I support the idea to give more useful free stuff for VIPs (like free ED tree reset) If U want to sell more VIP status make it more practical, more useful to players. Cause as it seems now VIP is a prestige thingy.
And once more: KEEP GOIN ON THE WAY SSG U STEPPED ONTO, KEEP COMMUNICATING!!!!!

[kpak01]

In the first draft of the Epic Overhaul (the one mentioned in Cordovan's post above the question about reset costs), one of the features we considered was something similar to this, and we did investigations into the scope and cost of implementation. Unfortunately, it's colossal. It's something that could potentially be implemented someday, but is far outside the scope of what we can do as part of this Epic Destiny pass at this time.

Then the respec cost does not need to simply be reduced, it needs to be reduced to ZERO. ELIMINATED. Right now we can change destiny (and twists) for zero cost. What do you have to gain by plat-gouging us?

[Fefnir_2011]

Any chance we'll see stat-reduction be useful in epics? I really love the idea of lowing the enemy's attributes, but when they regenerate them in seconds it feels kind of pointless.

Yes please. Managing debuffs on mobs other than bosses would give casters something to do and helps lessen the sting of the periodic DPS/instakill efficacy reduction. Something like:

Your necromancy/illusion/enchantment spells now cause stacking increased vulnerability in targets, regardless of whether or not they save.

• Illusory Vulnerability: -2 will saves, -20% attack and movement speed, 10% increased damage from all sources.
• Necromantic Vulnerability: -2 fort saves, deals damage over time, 10% increased damage from all sources.

Also make Fear freeze enemies in place, and reduce the visual effect of Hypnotic Pattern. Then give casters ways to consume debuffs on monsters for spellpower/healing/SP regen.

In other words, ignore the vocal minority clamoring for straight hallways with bags of HP and get creative with combat.

[Toph_Prime]

I don't know if this has been mentioned or where else to put it but it'd nice to have a multi select for all elements immunity stripping in at least 1 ED somewhere not T5 so casters who can't do that now can, wiz or multiclass sorc or a not light damage divine. Unless that's coming to all the caster heroic trees then nevermind.

[DarkSkysz]

I really did not liked the change to epic destiny progression...

Locking tiers behind epic levels is not good in my opinion.

Legendary feats, legendary gear and now 'legendary destinies' are basically useless for people who want to epic tr, and making epic destiny skills locked until lvl 30 will just make them... well useless ya know.

[apocaladle]

With the level cap raising in the future, what are the plans for the iron defender/wolf pets if anything?

[Jerevth]

Spender, maker, etc...
I've had all weekend to think on this.

Can we just keep it simple, instead. KISS.
It's an engineering mantra for a reason, and no matter how brilliant it looks on paper, some things just aren't meant to be.
I want to play the game and enjoy my time spent doing so, not building new habits or training new reflexes to twitch the timing.
Besides the lack of fun, wouldn't this take up the resources that were freed in order to reduce lag?

[zooble]

Anyone that has capped all their EDs i.e. farmed 24 MILLION XP WITHOUT ETRing receives nothing but a cosmetic cloak.

This effort, running in off-destinies I might add, allowed you to twist 4-3-1 (or equivalent) and now all that work isn't converting into any points?

Not everyone/everytoon instantly ETRed after hitting 30 and filling out 6mil karma in a destiny. Alts and low life toons punished for not ETRing.