U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Core Framework

[Dark_jared]

To SSG and the Devs small and large,

I write this letter to you, nearing 12 years of VIP play in DDO. I've been with you since Update 4. I have 42 characters across three accounts. I've been through so many revisions, nerfs, and boosts that I cant even count them any more. My monks and rangers felt the sting of your thoughtless actions more than once.
So when I tell that you I want you to look incredibly closely at this revision of the ED system: Understand that I have only posted on the forum 5 times prior to this. Feel the gravity of this discussion.

This game doesn't feel like Dungeons and Dragons any more, you have mutated it into a bland generic MMO. Random loot is scanned for augment slots then sold/decon'd when once it was sold to House D and reused by new players looking for their first Wounding Of Puncturing and Harry beater. The camaraderie is gone, everyone can do everything, and no one needs each other. New people don't play reaper, old people don't play anything but Reaper. The player base is fragmented and you aren't attracting enough new players. How many accounts are more than a year old and still active in the last month?

Do you know why? Its because you keep moving the goal posts. There are few people who can devote the time to dig into reincarnation on the scale needed to operate in the game atmosphere you've created. I play more than I should, and log 20 hours a week. I have 1 character in 42 that is going for a Epic Completionist. If you extend the level cap again, you will lose my attention completely.

The milestones these good gamers bring up are important. The progression of a toon through their paces and levels needs to feel like forward movement. And above all they MUST be able to enjoy the fruits of their labor. Let us enjoy our Tier 5 ability at level 12 and 26. give us enough points to spend in trees that interest us, without forcing us to take things we don't want. Let us feel the value of pouring the uncounted MONTHS of life spent in the TR process. let us feel appreciated for the commitment. Some characters will become Uber... LET THEM. They earned it.

My monk Judonno can stun anything. That is what I want him to do. I don't need 10000 hitpoints, or 500 PRR to be happy. I just need to know that when I use Stunning Fist that I hear a *Ding* and the mob puts their head down.
I need to know that when I log in I can find a group and play for a few hours, during which I make appreciable progress toward leveling and progression on my goal. The TR train is excruciating already. Keep the level cap at 30. If you want to include more variability, scrap all the extra junk you've built into the game, focus on the core of what make D&D fun: sitting down with your friends, killing monsters, exploring some fantastic stories, and occasionally getting one over on the DM. Leave the level cap where it is. Introduce more in the middle. Let me play a monk and take him through 15 different lives and only redo the same content a few times. Take a 6 month break from developing, and fix the GORRAM bugs you've already got. DDO used to be simple, adding complexity is not a direct path to add fun. You know, the best item I think you included in the game? Collective Sight, because it can be whatever we need it to be. That is what DDO should be, because that's what D&D *IS*.

Like another player posted: each ED had a certain je ne sais quoi that made it interesting. Each class has that too. Make the ED and Heroic classes synergistic. Dont sacrifice that to make coding easier. Don't let Fighters feel like Paladins, feel like Barbarians, feel like Monks. Place special emphasis (more than what you do now) on honoring the roles each can play.

The ED pass will happen eventually. But don't you DARE let it pass without full approval from the players.

Because if you do: Sunk Cost be damned, I'll cut the loss of my spent 4000 dollars and find another way to spend my time. This I promise you.

[Splunge]

Epic Completionist, rather than granting a Twist of Fate slot, will instead grant a flat +1 Destiny Action Point. You will also earn additional copies of Epic Completionist every 12 Epic Past Lives you earn thereafter.

Do any 12 PLs grant epic completionist or is there some restriction, such as having one of each epic PL?

[Seph1roth5]

There are really only 2 things that irk me about everything in the last lam build.

1: Tier 5s at 30. Obviously/definitely want these lowered, even if it's just 1 level. I know you dev-types are trying to spread out the power to make room for the levels above 30, but unless there's a massive overhaul of gear and experience needed, there's still a massive difference between 20-28 and 29-30. Unless you've put a lot of effort into legendary raids and slave lords.

And, as a few other people have pointed out, in heroics your character hits their tier 5s at level 12, and it's a great jump in power AND fun. By having the epic tiers locked to 30 it's really stretching out the epic slog, and making the stretch of power seem much worse.

Yeah you guys have emphasized front-loading tree power so you get it early on, so people didn't feel the power loss, but by backloading the big/fun abilities it's basically undoing that. Just lower the tier 5s to 29/28/whatever and don't try to use them as the power boost necessary for 31+. Make something ELSE for that.



2: Not as big a nitpick, but I think the charge system would be much more enjoyable if the charges didn't decay. It's really like playing a monk and wanting to use all the fun special attacks and multitude of finishers. At low levels you don't have ki regen so unless you're putting a LOT more effort into zerging around your ki's going to go down and you won't be able to ki attack it up. Once you get some levels, ki regen items/abilities, more concentration, etc., then you don't have to worry about your upkeep so often.

That sort of limitation is fine for heroics, but for epics it's making it a hassle to use all the new/fun abilities you devs put the effort into making. 10 seconds might sound like a lot, but not everyone wants to zerg every quest ALL the time. Or have every fight be builder, builder, builder, spender, repeat.

Some people have suggested 20 or 30, but I think no decay would just be easier. It's not going to make your character broken to have 2-3 charges linger after a fight. If you don't use any spenders and just keep it for the passives, so? If that's SUCH a big deal, make them zero out on resting.

Having decay be 4 separate new 10 sec ticks (though doubt anyone would have all 4 going at once) just seems like a big waste of system resources, player time, and screen space, not even taking into account all the floaty symbols.

Other than those 2, I like a lot of the new abilities and am looking forward to the new ED system possibilities. The tier 5 at 30 is just going to really kill the ED system for me because my playstyle doesn't sit at 30. I have older characters I etr to fix (like cleric with no domains) or tr down to 1 to change completely. And my main is in a static group doing epic/racial TRs.

[Stravix]

There are really only 2 things that irk me about everything in the last lam build.

1: Tier 5s at 30. Obviously/definitely want these lowered, even if it's just 1 level. I know you dev-types are trying to spread out the power to make room for the levels above 30, but unless there's a massive overhaul of gear and experience needed, there's still a massive difference between 20-28 and 29-30. Unless you've put a lot of effort into legendary raids and slave lords.

And, as a few other people have pointed out, in heroics your character hits their tier 5s at level 12, and it's a great jump in power AND fun. By having the epic tiers locked to 30 it's really stretching out the epic slog, and making the stretch of power seem much worse.

Yeah you guys have emphasized front-loading tree power so you get it early on, so people didn't feel the power loss, but by backloading the big/fun abilities it's basically undoing that. Just lower the tier 5s to 29/28/whatever and don't try to use them as the power boost necessary for 31+. Make something ELSE for that.



2: Not as big a nitpick, but I think the charge system would be much more enjoyable if the charges didn't decay. It's really like playing a monk and wanting to use all the fun special attacks and multitude of finishers. At low levels you don't have ki regen so unless you're putting a LOT more effort into zerging around your ki's going to go down and you won't be able to ki attack it up. Once you get some levels, ki regen items/abilities, more concentration, etc., then you don't have to worry about your upkeep so often.

That sort of limitation is fine for heroics, but for epics it's making it a hassle to use all the new/fun abilities you devs put the effort into making. 10 seconds might sound like a lot, but not everyone wants to zerg every quest ALL the time. Or have every fight be builder, builder, builder, spender, repeat.

Some people have suggested 20 or 30, but I think no decay would just be easier. It's not going to make your character broken to have 2-3 charges linger after a fight. If you don't use any spenders and just keep it for the passives, so? If that's SUCH a big deal, make them zero out on resting.

Having decay be 4 separate new 10 sec ticks (though doubt anyone would have all 4 going at once) just seems like a big waste of system resources, player time, and screen space, not even taking into account all the floaty symbols.

Other than those 2, I like a lot of the new abilities and am looking forward to the new ED system possibilities. The tier 5 at 30 is just going to really kill the ED system for me because my playstyle doesn't sit at 30. I have older characters I etr to fix (like cleric with no domains) or tr down to 1 to change completely. And my main is in a static group doing epic/racial TRs.

Yup, have to agree with this, as others have stated, 30 is far too late to get you flashy abilities, especially if it isn't paired immediately with the release of that level cap increase. This just makes it so most people don't really get a chance to use those abilities for very long.

That said, making the charges have no duration and just making all of the active and passive builders require an enemy to work would b a good way of working that system.

[redoubt]

And... your math is wrong again. Firstly, there's no 5 twists at lvl 20. 5th slot is lvl 30 one, so at 20 you don't have 5 twists. Secondly, such comparison makes very little sense, cause now you can use only 1 tree, what means... you won't need all those twists, cause for example instead of twisting legendary tactics from LD you'll have permanent access to LD and literally all its enhancements cause of using it as 2nd or 3rd tree. Sorry, i don't buy this: it's much better to have +1 twist tier from past lifes rather than access to 60 enhancements from two additional trees and 9 free points to spend them there'. I think sacrificing, from example +1W from gmof and instead of it enjoying literally entire LD tree is still much better option than twists, especially since all EDs are going to be revamped and the power is going to be shifted to lower tiers, so t1-2 in new system will be much better than t1-2 twists from old one (ofc not talking about meld, cause that ability is irreplaceable). For example:
- now you have +1w from dance of flowers and +6 tacticals dc from ld
- in new system you take LD as 2nd tree, so you wont need twist for tacticals (of course u spend 3 points for epic tacticals from new ld). Instead of +1w from gmof you receive (for remaining after tacticals 6 free epl points): fear immunity, +50 hp, +20 melee power, +12 ranged power (from cores), momentum swing and either +6 doublestrike or +3 power attack dmg or +3action boosts or lay waste. Maybe i'm weird, but i think those are a little more than +1w.

Okay, so you seem to know how to put builds back together in the new system, so I will ask you about my build.

pure rogue assassin. Currently in SD. Major abilities I use and try to maximize:

assassinate - so i need as much boost to this and INT as possible.
consume - one of only two aoe attacks
meld - my oh **** button
grim precision - i tend to run at around 90% armor pierce to maximize sneak attack
shadow form for the bonus to hide and move silent to support assassinate

twists:
martial hymn T4
balanced attacks T3 - my CC
legendary tactics T1
dance with flowers T1
extra action boosts T1

dire charge - my other aoe attack

So what do you think? How do I replicate or improve on this in the new system?

[redoubt]

To SSG and the Devs small and large,

I write this letter to you, nearing 12 years of VIP play in DDO.

/snip

Because if you do: Sunk Cost be damned, I'll cut the loss of my spent 4000 dollars and find another way to spend my time. This I promise you.

I obviously talk on the forums more than you do sir, but I completely agree with you.

The first game I truly loves was SWG. I played right up to the night before the NGE. I remember sitting up late that night talking to a friend and just sitting idle in the game. Nearing midnight we said farewell, logged out and never met again. I never logged into the NGE servers. What was the point. It was a new game and it was the old game I loved.

[crazycaren]

Now that we won't have maxed destiny trees on level 20 characters, can you remove the restriction of entering heroic quests on reaper when 20+? I think the standard level lockout would be sufficient at that point.

/signed

[Zdevor]

To SSG and the Devs small and large,

I write this letter to you, nearing 12 years of VIP play in DDO. I've been with you since Update 4. I have 42 characters across three accounts. I've been through so many revisions, nerfs, and boosts that I cant even count them any more. My monks and rangers felt the sting of your thoughtless actions more than once.
So when I tell that you I want you to look incredibly closely at this revision of the ED system: Understand that I have only posted on the forum 5 times prior to this. Feel the gravity of this discussion.

This game doesn't feel like Dungeons and Dragons any more, you have mutated it into a bland generic MMO. Random loot is scanned for augment slots then sold/decon'd when once it was sold to House D and reused by new players looking for their first Wounding Of Puncturing and Harry beater. The camaraderie is gone, everyone can do everything, and no one needs each other. New people don't play reaper, old people don't play anything but Reaper. The player base is fragmented and you aren't attracting enough new players. How many accounts are more than a year old and still active in the last month?

Do you know why? Its because you keep moving the goal posts. There are few people who can devote the time to dig into reincarnation on the scale needed to operate in the game atmosphere you've created. I play more than I should, and log 20 hours a week. I have 1 character in 42 that is going for a Epic Completionist. If you extend the level cap again, you will lose my attention completely.

The milestones these good gamers bring up are important. The progression of a toon through their paces and levels needs to feel like forward movement. And above all they MUST be able to enjoy the fruits of their labor. Let us enjoy our Tier 5 ability at level 12 and 26. give us enough points to spend in trees that interest us, without forcing us to take things we don't want. Let us feel the value of pouring the uncounted MONTHS of life spent in the TR process. let us feel appreciated for the commitment. Some characters will become Uber... LET THEM. They earned it.

My monk Judonno can stun anything. That is what I want him to do. I don't need 10000 hitpoints, or 500 PRR to be happy. I just need to know that when I use Stunning Fist that I hear a *Ding* and the mob puts their head down.
I need to know that when I log in I can find a group and play for a few hours, during which I make appreciable progress toward leveling and progression on my goal. The TR train is excruciating already. Keep the level cap at 30. If you want to include more variability, scrap all the extra junk you've built into the game, focus on the core of what make D&D fun: sitting down with your friends, killing monsters, exploring some fantastic stories, and occasionally getting one over on the DM. Leave the level cap where it is. Introduce more in the middle. Let me play a monk and take him through 15 different lives and only redo the same content a few times. Take a 6 month break from developing, and fix the GORRAM bugs you've already got. DDO used to be simple, adding complexity is not a direct path to add fun. You know, the best item I think you included in the game? Collective Sight, because it can be whatever we need it to be. That is what DDO should be, because that's what D&D *IS*.

Like another player posted: each ED had a certain je ne sais quoi that made it interesting. Each class has that too. Make the ED and Heroic classes synergistic. Dont sacrifice that to make coding easier. Don't let Fighters feel like Paladins, feel like Barbarians, feel like Monks. Place special emphasis (more than what you do now) on honoring the roles each can play.

The ED pass will happen eventually. But don't you DARE let it pass without full approval from the players.

Because if you do: Sunk Cost be damned, I'll cut the loss of my spent 4000 dollars and find another way to spend my time. This I promise you.

Totally agreed.

[DRoark]

twists:
martial hymn T4
balanced attacks T3 - my CC
legendary tactics T1
dance with flowers T1
extra action boosts T1

dire charge - my other aoe attack

So what do you think? How do I replicate or improve on this in the new system?

Simply put, you don't.

You're going to have to figure out an entirely new build that you can tolerate, or leave with everyone else.

[SpardaX]

Do any 12 PLs grant epic completionist or is there some restriction, such as having one of each epic PL?

I can't say for 100% certain, but I would assume any EPLs that actually get added would count.

So like, they stack 3 times. So taking 1 of each or a full 3 stack 4 times should both work, but taking "Doubleshot" 12 times when it only stacks 3, I assume does not work. Since their opening statement is based on how many lives you have present on the character.

[Shakanos]

One thing I like about the new system is the gradual increase in power as levels are gained. I've seen more than a few people point to "dead" epic levels because you get nothing of note at those levels. Heroic has less glamorous levels as well, but the constant trickle of enhancement points keeps each level up somewhat useful. Hopefully the same will be true for epic levels, once the dust settles.

I'm sure a lot of players are used to the burst of power when their fully fleshed out epic destiny comes online at 20, but the change in this area is a worthwhile goal. Content of the new trees can be debated without end, but the underlying change in structure to epic destinies seems good.

[Ghustor]

Do any 12 PLs grant epic completionist or is there some restriction, such as having one of each epic PL?

Today we need to have any 3 PL on each Sphere. I have the same doubt if they will do the Completionist with any 12 EPL or if they will kepp the same system we have today

[xBunny]

The first game I truly loves was SWG. I played right up to the night before the NGE. I remember sitting up late that night talking to a friend and just sitting idle in the game. Nearing midnight we said farewell, logged out and never met again. I never logged into the NGE servers. What was the point. It was a new game and it was the old game I loved.

For one year after NGE patch, number of players decreased from 250k to 100k. Well, at least SSG is not banning and deleting bad commentaries.

[Valerianus]

For one year after NGE patch, number of players decreased from 250k to 100k. Well, at least SSG is not banning and deleting bad commentaries.

this, we must acknowledge it. it's fair.

ssg is not banning\deleting bad commentaries, unless there's more beside criticism requiring moderation\forum action.

[A-O]

Okay, so you seem to know how to put builds back together in the new system, so I will ask you about my build.

pure rogue assassin. Currently in SD. Major abilities I use and try to maximize:

assassinate - so i need as much boost to this and INT as possible.
consume - one of only two aoe attacks
meld - my oh **** button
grim precision - i tend to run at around 90% armor pierce to maximize sneak attack
shadow form for the bonus to hide and move silent to support assassinate

twists:
martial hymn T4
balanced attacks T3 - my CC
legendary tactics T1
dance with flowers T1
extra action boosts T1

dire charge - my other aoe attack

So what do you think? How do I replicate or improve on this in the new system?

I mean you could do some thinking on your own and see what you can get. It's not up to the devs to help you with your build. It's obviously still very early to see exactly what and how you'll build. But going e.g. T4 in SD and T5 in LD gets you:

10% Offhand chance
Meld is still there, better than before. Nerfs coming so early to say if it'll be better or worse than current.
Grim is still there. Same as before
Int = irrelevant. They're reducing everyone's main stat by the same amount more or less, and consequently have said they're looking into epic ward or other save boosts to mobs. If you lose 3 dc and mobs lose 3 saves, it's wash/wash.
You're getting +2 Sneak attack dice
6% more Doublestrike
+11 tactics. You have currently +6
+1W in action boost (so even with losing +1W)
You're getting back +3 action boosts.
+15% helpless damage
26 more PRR (yes counting losing hymn)
Vulnerability stacking
+5 more prr/mrr if you run tactician
Action boost recharge
dire charge

And that can probably be improved if you look into it more and try to fit 3 cores from another tree. How many points you can get with release is still kinda ambiguous since in their post they explain that very poorly.

You're going to have to figure out an entirely new build that you can tolerate, or leave with everyone else.

Oh noes, we have to figure out new builds in the game that's 99% about making builds

[Jerevth]

First: this is a huge undertaking and I see how it can address the discussion about power creep.
I confess, I could not log into Lamannia, so I don't have the details for the point investments for each item.

My concerns:
-43 maximum points would seem to mean we either dedicate point investment entirely to achieve top tier abilities in one tree and forgo all but the least in the other two trees, or we spread the investment and have less overall ability, even at max points. It takes 30 points to unlock the tier 5 and we'd want to buy at least one item in the top tier.

-Because the top two core abilities have been pushed into the 31+ levels to achieve, the argument that the available points is limited because there are "only ten levels" is rendered moot. This should mean either more points are going to become available after level 30, or the purchased abilities are stronger to justify the cost and carry upward beyond level 30. Tier Five abilities only unlocking at level 30 is rubbish. Those are not "End Game only" powers.

-Since the front-loading of the Epic Destinies is going away with the into of level requirements to unlock, what are the plans for keeping level 20-24 quests tenable? (Since they were scaled to take a full ED powered character into account and that will no longer be the case?)

-Will the cost to rearrange the Epic Destinies be static or inflate with each re-set? I see a LOT of point reallocation being needed as characters unlock higher tiers and have to dedicate toward a specific tree.

-Gear/sets will need to be introduced to keep the lower epic level quests possible without the current EDs, or those quests will have to be toned down. Removing the power-creep will create a significant hurdle since those quests were built to account for the power levels currently achievable.

I am not nay-saying or planning to veto the game. I'll keep playing, but there are a lot of consequences coming with the U51 changes that I hope are taken into account. It is great that the game is being adjusted to account for expansion but it is a venerable game and reinvention- which this is- will require a lot of attention to detail and BALANCED changes as it moves forward. The Bow half-pass was not well executed and it's still unfinished; the nerfs were instituted without the benefits of the archtype (Ranged) being introduced to maintain the balance.

Being as long in the tooth as DDO is this will be pulling a lot of unanticipated lines of code and interplay.
Finally, the statement that level 30+ will be a whole new paradigm (Or however it was phrased) is rendered untrue because the ED rewrite is taking those higher levels into account before they are even introduced. And, unlike the bow pass, please don't drop these changes on us without milestones in place for the rest of the updates, before time is spent on other projects. "At a later date," means it's at the bottom of the priority list. U52 should be the rest of the project coming to fruition.

[Hawkwier]

Well put, Dark Jared.

[SimCat]

ok, so there are a ton of posts and I tried reading quite a few, but I'm slacking at work to do this..so trying to keep it short and sweet. Personally, I don't have a problem with the concept. I like that the epic system will be similar to the heroic system. I think it's easier for new players and honestly makes more sense in the overall scheme.

I know a lot of people are/are probably not going to like the fact that the power is not as front loaded and it is with the previous system. Even with the fate points and such, it really isn't as front loaded. My main has over 140 lives covering all the different type of lives. Once I hit 20 and i'm in a main destiny with my twists I can play up quite a bit. I don't see that happening anymore. However, I think it makes a certain amount of sense that the power grows as you level so I really don't have an issue with that.

Here's my gripe and it REALLY need to be addressed. The gear needs to be more linear. I seriously run level 15 gear in quite a few spots all the way up to level 29 because with set bonuses it's really better than the alternatives. A decent amount of gear that's worthwhile in mid epics takes a bit of time and work (LGS for example). the gear between 21 and 28 is just atrocious. What does this mean...it means that I'm packing lower level gear or subpar gear and without the power front loading it's really going to be more of a grind. I've read through all the specific proposed changes to the different trees and I hear that there is some power packed in the lower level tiers, but I'm just not seeing it when gear makes up 90% of the power of the character. PLEASE make this a priority to focus on gear. I have heard there will be changes to the S/S/S system and I don't have details, but I hope that helps. We A) need upgrades on gear that can still be balanced and B) we need more quests/raids that are not end-game. I liked that Catacombs and Delera's was added, but it's not enough. There are a ton of other packs that could easily be epicfied (TM). Lower Necropolis, Sharn Syndicate, Restless Isles, Shan-to-Kor, etc etc etc.

Without the gear updates, I really think you're not going to get as much of a positive response. Like I said, I think the overall changes make sense (although some of the choices in the trees can be examined - I'll post of those threads later).

Not a big fan of the abilities that use charges. As a player base...me included....I don't think anyone really likes them. Slows down game play via having to track more and more stuff. Also...we just don't like them Figure something else out for that. The mantles are cool and I support those.

[redoubt]

I mean you could do some thinking on your own and see what you can get. It's not up to the devs to help you with your build.

Its a mostly rhetorical question. I can and do think for myself. I just keep asking the fanbois (I know it wasn't you) who say all is well how to replicate my build because I know they cannot do so.

I do appreciate the option you present. Its not bad, though it does miss out on 20 hide/move silent and incorp etc from shadow form. Its missing consume, balanced attacks, 3 assassinate and the INT (the thing they are talking about removing only applies to spells, so it won't be a wash for assassins).

It's obviously still very early to see exactly what and how you'll build. But going e.g. T4 in SD and T5 in LD gets you:

10% Offhand chance
Meld is still there, better than before. Nerfs coming so early to say if it'll be better or worse than current.
Grim is still there. Same as before
Int = irrelevant. They're reducing everyone's main stat by the same amount more or less, and consequently have said they're looking into epic ward or other save boosts to mobs. If you lose 3 dc and mobs lose 3 saves, it's wash/wash.
You're getting +2 Sneak attack dice
6% more Doublestrike
+11 tactics. You have currently +6
+1W in action boost (so even with losing +1W)
You're getting back +3 action boosts.
+15% helpless damage
26 more PRR (yes counting losing hymn)
Vulnerability stacking
+5 more prr/mrr if you run tactician
Action boost recharge
dire charge

And that can probably be improved if you look into it more and try to fit 3 cores from another tree. How many points you can get with release is still kinda ambiguous since in their post they explain that very poorly.

[Cordovan]

Howdy folks! We've been hard at work reading and absorbing all of the feedback you have given us over the last week, and we wanted to share more about what we have been discussing. The following was put together by the folks working on these systems as a group, and I'm just posting their work, really:


We have more previews coming up shortly, but as a reminder, these previews are for Update 50, which is a different update than Update 51, which is the update with the Epic Destiny rework. What this means is that although we are still going to be iterating and building the ED framework behind the scenes, you won't get a chance to see it in action until likely after Update 50 launches.


So, without further ado, here's what we've got to share today:


1: Epic and Destiny feats

We started out this revamp assuming that we'd be able to proxy buff a ton of the old Epic and Destiny feats by adding in bonuses tied to the new ED abilities. It looks like we need to do more to make those feats more enticing. We can dedicate some time to revamp the lesser used options beyond making them tie in to the trees, and the tree tie-ins themselves can stand to be far punchier as well.


2: Returning Abilities

One of our bigger goals with this system was to complete a reorganization of some of the assorted Epic abilities into more appropriate places. This could be as complicated as moving all of the Smite Evil attacks from one tree to another, or as simple as ensuring that some cut abilities can end up somewhere appropriate. For example, the Tsunami spell is going to end up joining the Druid spell book rather than simply being removed forever. What we can do in the future is do a much better job of communicating when certain abilities will make a return, either as a feat, a class spell, or even in a new Epic Destiny down the line.


3: What belongs in Tier 5

A large amount of feedback thus far has been centered around the question of what belongs in tier 5. Our initial judgement was that things that were roughly tier 5 or 6 in the old destinies belonged in tier 5 of the new destinies. After this first preview, we've changed our minds considerably for quite a few abilities. Given that players will only get access to their tier 5 at level 30, we need each Tier 5 to contain either almost entirely new things or things that are too powerful to not remain exclusive, and let some tier 5/6 abilities pull downwards so that players can access them far sooner.


On that note, one of the most unexpected pieces of feedback for us was just how much love there was for the concept of an Epic Moment. With that in mind, we can do a better job ensuring that each tree has a T5 ability that matches those expectations, although we want to spend more time discussing internally before committing to that kind of redesign.


4: Monster and content difficulty

This debut on Lamannia didn't make it explicit enough that we are making big changes to the difficulty of monsters built for older Epic content quests. We're going to make sure monster stats take these changes into account. For comparison, switching a monster in older Epics to our new formulas often results in a loss of Maximum HP anywhere from 25 - 50%, depending on the individual monster's quirks. We will have more information about our monster adjustments in the next Epic Destiny Preview.


5: Ranged Power

We initially ballparked the amount of Ranged Power per core at 6. It's clear that this is not enough, so we'll be raising the Ranged Power per core to 8.


6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System

The overwhelming majority of the feedback has been centered on this, which is why we wanted to take some extra time and discuss our options with this system internally before committing to something. We're looking at several paths to follow, some which make the system less time sensitive, and some that cut it completely. The "charge" system as a whole is not formally necessary for this Epic Destiny overhaul, so if we need to we can move in a different direction.


7: Initial Destiny Points

A change we will be making internally that we wanted to tell you all right now about is that we will be raising the amount of Fate Points gained for each tree unlock to 3 from 2. This means that each Epic Destiny tree you unlock by speaking to the appropriate NPC will grant you 1 Permanent Destiny Points (because 3 fate points = 1 destiny point). This also means that the default starting point pool is 12 (from the 12 trees). We're going to experiment with this and see how it feels, and you'll likely get a chance to try out this higher starting point in the next Epic Destiny preview.

So, that's about it for this feedback response post right now, although we did want to end with answering a few Frequently Asked Questions just to be sure we're not making things overly confusing.


Question: Do the cores in each tree stack?

Answer: Yes! Everything but the Spell DCs specifically in each tree stacks with every other tree.

Question: What's happening to Epic Past Lives?

Answer: Every past life currently available will remain available after this overhaul. The only thing changing with Epic Past Lives is that you will get more Fate Points for your past lives. Also, going forward, you will no longer need to level up an Epic Destiny and gain Karma XP to Epic Reincarnate.

Question: Can you tell us about the other Destiny Trees you have planned?


Answer: They are thematically connected to Artificer, Alchemist, and Warlock (three classes whose mechanics and archetypes didn't get much specific love from the original ED system), and are not slated to be released in Update 51 with the initial set of 12 Epic Destinies.


Question: Are you doing this so you can build Legendary Destinies?

Answer: No, we are not. Funnily enough, the first paper draft of the epic overhaul from over a year ago involved something similar, but we opted to overhaul the current EDs instead due to internal feedback and feedback from the Player's Council. These new Destinies are built to scale with a huge number of points, and we're confident that allowing players to become more powerful within this system is a more compelling system of progression than pushing them to an entirely new one for Legendary content.

Question: Are you going to do anything about Reset Costs for the new EDs?


Answer: Yes, we are. Ideally any system doesn't completely bankrupt your character if you would like to spend your point differently. We will have more details once we finalize how the new cost to reset is structured.

Well, that's all we have for right now, although we still want to hear from you about how you feel about this overhaul. Please feel welcome to share your feedback with us!