U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Core Framework

[hit_fido]

1. Does the revamped system appropriately account for whatever progression players made through the current system?

Yes, setting aside the level gating, it looks like the conversion from old destiny/fate points to the new system is reasonable and fair.

2. Does the revamped system simplify the entry into and the progression through epic destinies?

Yes, this is the part of the revamp that is most complete and positive. Lots of players have asked this to be simplified for years. Definitely makes running a new character up easier. SSG nailed it as far as I can see

3. Can players create more, the same, or fewer interesting build combinations (destiny combinations) during the 20-30 levelling range?

Maybe. This is hard to tell for me. The degree to which I'll miss twists of fate is hard to discern yet. They allowed for a lot of flexibility. Currently, you can get 5 twists and that means you could effectively cherry pick from up to 5 other destinies to complement one maxed destiny. The revamp lets you go much deeper into 2 other destinies to complement one maxed destiny - however the "mantles" are mutually exclusive which limits the benefit of going deeper. Maybe this ends up mostly neutral because there's some flexibility loss and some gain. The level gating really affects this too; at 20 I'm certain you'll have many fewer interesting combinations, at 30 you may indeed have more.

4. Does my well-progressed character still get a power increase moving from 19-20 that is proportional to the difficulty increase moving from heroic to epic quests.

No. This is the part that was going to be the toughest design challenge. If there's a commitment to level gating I don't know what else you can do to make level 20 feel as good as it does now on a character with a maxed destiny and some twists of fate. You'd have to have some really good abilities available at 20 and what I see looking at some of the new trees, the lower tier abilities are weak; the first tier of each mantle is weak; the first core is weak. These needed to be buffed quite a bit to counter the level gating.

I don't know why this kind of level gating is such a focus and goal. But it is what it is, SSG wants level gating. What I was hoping is that there'd be enough really cool, and/or powerful, and/or fun new abilities that would offset the shock of hitting level 20 epics with so much of a weaker character. Looking at how epic leveling will be now, and I'm really dejected and unenthusiastic about the entire revamp. Whereas before you could get the entire basket of fun at 20 and use it through 30, now I cant even play with some things in the basket of fun until 30!

It's tough. The only actionable idea I can give is drastically relax the level gating requirements:

Heroic tiers: level 1, 2, 3, 4, 12

So for epic tiers, what is wrong with a similar pace: level 20, 20, 22, 23, 26

Please don't use the excuse of a level increase to lock good abilities to 29/30; who knows how far off that is.

[Qeistalan]

I run my main toon in Shadowdancer and use the following Twists of Fate:

• Tier 4: Martial Hymn (Fatesinger)
• Tier 4: Symmetric Strikes (Primal Avatar)
• Tier 2: Reign (Fatesinger)
• Tier 1: A Dance of Flowers (Grandmaster of Flowers)
• Tier 1: Rejuvenation Cocoon (Primal Avatar)
• Swap: Tier 1: Energy Sheath (Draconic)

Based on the current ED system, I use access to 4 or 5 EDs; Twists of Fate provide useful flexibility EARNED by Epic Completionists.
Based on the proposed ED overhaul limits with access to max 3 EDs, there is no equivalent flexibility/usefulness to Twists of Fate.

The proposed ED system seems short-sighted and underwhelming.
Is "all of this" being done to pacify the Forum paladin-minoritatians who bellyache that grinding Epic lives is too hard and/or boring?
"This" feels like my money invested in DDO has be wasted. Again.
I am not "freaking out"; I'm just not surprised the game is being nerfed. Again.

[Forcystus]

So, first off I want to say that I share no ill will or bad blood regarding the changes. I get that you prefer to consolidate the systems and it will be easier to add new EDs coinciding with new Classes in the future.

However, for the current state of the game, I would like to propose the required AP to reach T4 and T5 in ED Trees. Notably: A new player, reaching level 30 has access to 44 dAP. With any Tree requireing 30 to even unlock T5, the best one could do would be T5 + T2 + T2 (buying 2 abilities in T5 and 1 in T2 each) or T5 + T3. This would make the dips in the other tree(s) very shallow and barely noticable, especially if it's goal is to compensate the loss of power of no longer having twists of fate.

From what I gathered, you want the system to entice mixing EDs. So, how about lowering the required dAP from:

Tier 5: 30
Tier 4: 20
Tier 3: 10
Tier 2: 5
Tier 1: 0

to:

Tier 5: 25
Tier 4: 15
Tier 3: 10
Tier 2: 5
Tier 1: 0

That would push the combo to T5 + T3 + T2 or T5 + T4, meaning new players can get notable skills in their secondary EDs. The Mantle and Unique T5 mechanics already prevent the strongest combos, so just allow us more leeway to design mixed builds, please?

[HedgeHogShadow]

I run my main toon in Shadowdancer and use the following Twists of Fate:

• Tier 4: Martial Hymn (Fatesinger)
• Tier 4: Symmetric Strikes (Primal Avatar)
• Tier 2: Reign (Fatesinger)
• Tier 1: A Dance of Flowers (Grandmaster of Flowers)
• Tier 1: Rejuvenation Cocoon (Primal Avatar)
• Swap: Tier 1: Energy Sheath (Draconic)

Based on the current ED system, I use access to 4 or 5 EDs; Twists of Fate provide useful flexibility EARNED by Epic Completionists.
Based on the proposed ED overhaul limits with access to max 3 EDs, there is no equivalent flexibility/usefulness to Twists of Fate.

The proposed ED system seems short-sighted and underwhelming.
Is "all of this" being done to pacify the Forum paladin-minoritatians who bellyache that grinding Epic lives is too hard and/or boring?
"This" feels like my money invested in DDO has be wasted. Again.
I am not "freaking out"; I'm just not surprised the game is being nerfed. Again.

You probably should be freaking out. It seems like another shot to the gut.

EPIC Completionist = 1 TWIST.
1 TWIST (IS NOT EQUAL TO) 1 Epic action point in new system

I have found a new formula I can trust: PASS = NERF

[rabidfox]

You probably should be freaking out. It seems like another shot to the gut.

EPIC Completionist = 1 TWIST.
1 TWIST (IS NOT EQUAL TO) 1 Epic action point in new system

I have found a new formula I can trust: PASS = NERF

EPIC Completionist = a fourth tree... now that would be epic motivation.

[SpardaX]

So what happens if for example, you're level 23~ when this goes live. Your first destiny feat jumps from 26 to 22 and so you've missed taking it?

[SpardaX]

Reading through multiple of these threads now, one thing I'm seeing on each of the specific destiny threads is that your current idea of making all the big hitting physical attacks DCs run off Str/Dex/Con, and all of the big hitting castery attacks DCs run off Int/Wis/Cha might be a mistake. Everyone always comments on how with the ability now to pick basically any stat and run your physical off that one stat, I would think it's a better idea to make at least the physical attacks all run off Highest Modifier of all stats.

I'd think a better idea is just to make all of these epic destiny heavy hitters run off Highest Modifier, but I think the castery ones are significantly less of an issue, since I think most of the time someone taking a castery ability would have their highest modifier be one of the mental stats.

I also get behind people's idea of putting tier 5 abilities back to at least 29 required and not 30.

[DRoark]

This is going to be a nightmarish cluster-flop of Epic proportions, doomed to destroy the spaghetti-code. Period.

[Tilomere]

nvm idc

[Propane]

I just transferred an 1st life - lv 20 - no epic XP alt - to the test server and played around with the new system. (pure monk)

9 ED points - spent on 3 trees.

Have Cocoon from Primal, 3
Have +6 DC from Legendary, 4
2 points to start leveling up in Grandmaster, 2

This is great change from my point of view - starting without anything filled out and unlocking things from the start was a really unpleasant. Much better for alts and new folks without all the EDs unlocked.
I need to play around with some of my mains and others to see how these changes feel with a more mature character.

[Propane]

I moved my LV 30 (18 pally / 2 fighter) tank over to the test server.
I have Epic completionist - started with 54 Destiny Points.

With out Unyielding - I could not really try to build this character. When we see all the EDs - I hope we can find some of the things we lost and can see how things will pull together.

I have Dire Charge on this tank- helps a lot (VOD looking at you) when helping control trash and such between boss fights and while running normal questing. Loosing this as a Feat is really going to remove some versatility from this character (please consider having 2-3 Epic Destiny configurations we can switch between). I could have a Tanking Config, Offensive Config, and Balanced Config...

I spend some points in Dreadnought - like the HP, AC, etc - not sure what I will do with the DC boosting without a feat (Stunning Blow is a weak substitute - are you adding any new feats?)
I was looking for Improved CE - where did that go?

Spend a few points in Devine Crusader Crusader - some interesting things...

My tank seems lost and now one dimensional - looking forward to seeing more of a completed layout before knowing really how things can pull together...

[Zigiltarg]

A bit late to this thread, not going to read the buildup, but hopefully someone on the payroll will.

I briefly swapped a character over to look at the new system.

I see potential in the new system, and I like the consistency of using the heroic enhancement tree purchase structure. I'm pretty sure there will always be room to argue about the details of the enhancements, since that's been going on with the heroic enhancement trees since they were introduced.

I suspect this will make epic Borderlands, Catacombs, and Delera's significantly more dangerous since they were built with the old destiny structure in mind. Other than that, 20-30 levelling should be fairly on par with how it was when the content was released.

Good luck to whoever is working on this change.

[IBCrabin]

This is quite a nerf to both new and old players.

You get a maxed of 54 or is it 59(?) Destiny point (AP) -with all ePLs done, spent the TP on +3 tome of fate, +1 tome of destiny, +4 (4x eComp)


The proposed system is

Core 1: Level 20, 0 AP
Core 2: Level 23, 5 AP
Core 3: Level 26, 10 AP
Core 4-6: Will eventually be available at levels higher than 30. Exact breakdown TBD.

Tier 1: Level 20, 0 AP
Tier 2: Level 20, 5 AP
Tier 3: Level 23, 10 AP
Tier 4: Level 26, 20 AP
Tier 5: Level 30, 30 AP (you may only be in one Tier 5 at a time)


The proposed change means a maxed out character can do 1 tree in T5, a 2nd tree in T4 and a 3rd tree in T1 or maybe just the core 1.

on live, unlocking ED is pain, but a fully ED capped level 30 toon without any PLs has 25 fate point - can do a 3/3/3 or 3/2/2/1 twist from a selection of 11 different ED.

Is there going to be a rebalanced to all epic and legendary content? Looks like even at cap, the toon will be much weaker and not as functional compared to the current twist system.

[Tobril]

1. Every level should have a decision of some sort. The current (and proposed) system has several "dead" levels that are rather unappealing.
2. Destinies should be a little more front loaded OR lower level quests need to be adjusted down in difficulty. Newer players and alts will struggle compared to today.
3. The tome of destiny was an expensive purchase and should provide a slightly larger benefit. (another medium green bag isn't sufficient here)
4. Being forced to talk every destiny "trainer" is a huge pain. One tutorial person is sufficient.
5. Swapping destinies and twists as we know it today is prohibitively expensive under the new system.

[redoubt]

So right now, at level 20, the cores give me 60 MP.

Now at level 30 they only give me 30 MP.... this is a (insert bad adjective) change.

That we paid for epic destinies and now you are about to hide parts of them behind some new thing that has not come out yet and you will most likely make us pay for again is ..... can't say... cordo would ban me.

[Tobril]

Consider what will happen when the cap increases with relation to being able to play together.

I spent much of this week unable to play with several friends because of only slight level differences.

A small player base becoming even more stratified seems detrimental to the game in general.


This seems like the time to either make some sort of "play with people at a different level" or just add more choices at "dead" levels that currently exist.

[LightBear]

Post Reserved

I find the Fate points vs Permanent Destiny Points bit confusing.

19 Permanent Destiny Points (14 from fate, 4 from four copies of epic completionist, 1 from tome).
24 Fate Points (from unlocking 12 trees)
For a total of 43.

So what do I get when leveling up, or is that something that is reserved for level 30+?
And where do I spend what, can both be spend just across any of the trees?

[Ewynn]

Presumably if we get 4 DPs for each epic level, it follows that at 30th lvl we would have earned 40 DPs, plus the 43 for being triple all. By extension then we would get 80 at level 40, plus the 43, so 123 at lvl 40, unless more can be earned (likely). New epic feats at 33, 36, 39, plus new destiny feats, plus the new “scion +” feat at 40 (if that is the cap).

Will there just be a new grind to earn the now available additional points with the release of new “destinies”? Is there any intent to make Epic Destinies be account based, vice character based? Same question but for Reaper? Also, given how laborious it will be to go from 1 to 40 will SSG provide free respecs for those who are “done” once at 40?

What is the approximate release plan/road map for new levels, 32 in 2021, 34 in 2022, etc?

I like the changes that you are preposing, shaking things up is fun. You might need some boosts at level 20 as it will be much harder for non-triple alls in early epics, without the power of a full destiny.

[Faltout]

I find the Fate points vs Permanent Destiny Points bit confusing.

19 Permanent Destiny Points (14 from fate, 4 from four copies of epic completionist, 1 from tome).
24 Fate Points (from unlocking 12 trees)
For a total of 43.

So what do I get when leveling up, or is that something that is reserved for level 30+?
And where do I spend what, can both be spend just across any of the trees?

When you achieve each rank in leveling up (like heroic leveling), you get 1 Destiny Point. So, every epic level you get 4 Destiny Points for a total of 36 (or 40 like heroic that gives 4 AP at level 20).

Fate Points have no purpose at all except to convert them to Destiny Points which you then spend across your 3 chosen trees/destinies.

[LittleLexi]

First of all— great job on the formatting of these posts to make them easy to follow. I'm a fan of the use of colors as well

You guys keep mentioning that new players can simply speak to an npc to unlock Epic Destinies under this new system. I get that that's how it works on Lamannia right now. But are you suggesting that in the future— players won't need to purchase Epic Destinies in the store to unlock them? Or is that still going to be necessary?

Personally— I think it would be a good time to make them available to all; particularly the newbies and those that shied away from Epics previously. At least make them free for VIPs post u51.