U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Core Framework

[mikarddo]

Some Ideas:

1) Adjust the level gating to be comparable to Heroics.

- T5 in Heroics is unlocked at lvl 12. Why not have T5 Epics unlock at 26 instead, or something other that lvl 30?

A very good argument.
T3 should be 21
T4 should be 23
T5 should be 25
as far as I am concerned.

[donblas]

Streamlined and simplified ED system?

I like it!

[Targal]

I am concerned about Destiny Tome. It was meant to lure people in a way that people buy Feydark Ulti pack, but the tome seems less effective now.

I'd like to suggest Destiny Tome lets your Epic Destiny maximum expanded. the current max is 3, and if you have the tome, the max will be 4.

You shouldn't change the tome like that way because your marketing was serious when you released Feydark. Merging them into Epic Destiny AP? No.

I've talked with my korean guidies about it and those who bought the feydark ulti agreed with my opinion... beside they are not sure in a way to expand Max ED slot, but they think it should not the same with Fate tome.

[Gniewomir]

When I look at these ED changes, I see yet another gap between extreme grinders / long-time veterans and more casual players (note the qualifier). I have a half-dozen ETRs on my main (plus Completionist and a dozen racial lives) specifically because I don't enjoy the epic grind.
Frankly, this makes me want to play even less in epics.

IMO, the Twists of Fate system was an acceptable gap between players who had maxed EPLs and players who didn't. The latter were still viable. Each EPL grants passive and active powers that, on their own, justify those lives. Similarly, Racial TRs introduced some power creep via Racial AP, but these are constrained by how little power is socked away in racial trees, especially at lower tiers, and often provide QoL benefits instead (eg, Nothing is Hidden).

Under the new system, there are sixteen AP obtainable from EPLs. If T5 EDs require 21 points and non-ETR'ed players start with 24-27, they're going to be able to invest very little in anything but their primary tree. So long as power is balanced semi-reasonably between T2 and T3 abilities (as they appear to be, similar to the current EDs), ETRs will introduce versatility, but also a lot of raw power.

This discrepancy between players is going to look and feel like the Reaper trees, but some players have had ten years to obtain their EPLs. This new system won't grant any room for progression/improvement on EPL'd characters. Instead (and power creep aside) it will make EPLs (and therefore grind) far more important.

To reiterate a previous comparison, the difference between RTR AP and the new ED AP is quite stark; the amount of grind between the two is comparable, but while RTRs give me something to casually strive for, the imminent ETR changes to AP feel mandatory make these extra points feel mandatory. I'm no doomsayer, and I don't particularly enjoy epics under the current system, but these changes would likely keep me from continuing to play.

I say this not as a threat / promise / warning, but merely as context for my experiences as a player somewhere on the spectrum between the altaholics and the uber-completionists.

This. Exactly what i'm worried about after sleeping on it. For example passive effects of only 12 epl gives 36 prr. Thats extra 36 prr difference (from 12 out of 48 epl), the difference none player/alt will be able to make smaller without farming epls. Adding action points you can spend in ed trees will make entire epl grind mandatory, once again widening gap between uber completionists and newbies/casuals/alts. It won't affect me personally (except my alts maybe :P), but i'm still wholeheartedly against such change.

[mikarddo]

When I look at these ED changes, I see yet another gap between extreme grinders / long-time veterans and more casual players (note the qualifier). I have a half-dozen ETRs on my main (plus Completionist and a dozen racial lives) specifically because I don't enjoy the epic grind.
Frankly, this makes me want to play even less in epics.

IMO, the Twists of Fate system was an acceptable gap between players who had maxed EPLs and players who didn't. The latter were still viable. Each EPL grants passive and active powers that, on their own, justify those lives. Similarly, Racial TRs introduced some power creep via Racial AP, but these are constrained by how little power is socked away in racial trees, especially at lower tiers, and often provide QoL benefits instead (eg, Nothing is Hidden).

Under the new system, there are sixteen AP obtainable from EPLs. If T5 EDs require 21 points and non-ETR'ed players start with 24-27, they're going to be able to invest very little in anything but their primary tree. So long as power is balanced semi-reasonably between T2 and T3 abilities (as they appear to be, similar to the current EDs), ETRs will introduce versatility, but also a lot of raw power.

I am reaching the oppositite conclusion.

You mention a 16 point difference in DP which I am not seeing, so atleast one of us has it wrong. I am seeing 48 EPL = 16 Fate Points = 5 DP (rounded down) + 4 DP from 4 times Epic Completionist so the grind difference amounts to 9 DP.

In the new system a fully maxed out character gets 59 DP compared to someone with zero EPL who gets 50 DP (assuming both have the same tomes). Without tomes its 57 vs 48. Thats hardly earthshattering but still some difference.

Compared to right now where the difference is an extra twist slot (from Epic Completionist) and much better twists which is huge.

At level 20 the difference in the new system is 21 AP vs 12 AP compared to right now where its the extra twist slot + much stronger twists.

If you compared someone brand new to epics (so no EDs filled) the differens in the current system is huge, in the new its pretty small.

So, I am definitely seeing the Vet advantage shrink considerably in the previewed system which isnt a bad thing.

[HuneyMunster]

Currently online my Sorcerer gets 8 Charisma from Destiny and Twists for a total of +4 to all DC's. Magister gets +5 to all DC's from core and 6 Necromancer DC for a total of 15 and 9 to other spells. With changes it will be +3 from Cores and +3 to from Tier 5 and +3 to Necromancy in Shadowdancer for a total of 9. I also can get an additional +3 to one other school and maybe a third DC. The removal of Epic Resilience negates the lost of DC's and may help out other spell DC's. Overall some like my fourth or lower priority spells will may be weaker than on live. I currently focus most on Necromancer, Illusion and Enchantment, but also use Transmutation, Abjuration, Evocation and Conjuration spells that maybe weaker post changes. At least now I will have more options that I previously had and some trees are not available to evaluate yet.

Grinding from 20-30 might become more of an annoyance than it currently is with not only my caster being weaker, but so are my melee characters. Jumping in endgame content at 29 instead of level 30 also seems effectiveness could be hindered more than previously.

[Faltout]

Core 4-6: Will eventually be available at levels higher than 30. Exact breakdown TBD.

No. DO NOT increase the level cap.

Having the epic destinies front-loaded meant that a level 20 player had about as much power as a level 26 player. The Epic/Legendary Feats were segregating the power level between the 20-26 and 27-30 levels. Now with the destinies being level gated, the power is more distributed between the epic levels.

While that is generally a good thing, it bring the root problem to light: There are not enough players to support grouping in such a segregated level range. Previously, the epic level players could all play together while the heroic level players struggled. Now with more epic level segregation and plans to introduce more levels, EVERYONE will struggle.

What does this mean for the game? Well, when I joined in 2012 (just before MotU), I had much fun logging into the game, opening the LFM panel, checking out the groups, joining a group to run something that wasn't "in progress", finishing that, joining another group. As the years went by, the number of LFMs has drastically decreased, the game is now easy to play solo, most LFMs are in-progress. This means that for me (and other players like me), the game now holds no appeal to play. Currently I only play with my guildies about 2 times a week because that's all I'm bothered to log in. If it weren't for my guildies (and for my guildies if it weren't for me), I would not be playing the game anymore which is what has happened to countless players that have been lost over the years.

If you raise the level cap, you'll be losing more players. And not with any bangs, they will just move on as they don't bother to log in to a ghost town. One might say "Players have been saying gloom for years now and we're still here". But we are NOT still here. I'm certainly not here for any player other than my guildies and the anonymous players I used to group with are not here as well.

P.S. The rest of the stuff about the epic destinies sounds good. Overall, good design on the trees. Just a note that epic destinies are a premium feature so make sure you don't break any player that doesn't own them (seems like that rank system might be trouble)

[Vish]

Core 4-6: Will eventually be available at levels higher than 30. Exact breakdown TBD.


so there are 3 cores for above 30 play but included in up to 30 play, or epic destiny

so theres come capstone stuff for 31-35? in the epic trees

i see this tying into legendary
but u dont get epic abilitys in heroic captstone...

so you get above 30 capstne for epic level, but only when above 30
ok so 3 filler bumps for legendary to make the epic feel more legendary

what u needed were some more epic feats

[Gniewomir]

I am reaching the oppositite conclusion.

You mention a 16 point difference in DP which I am not seeing, so atleast one of us has it wrong. I am seeing 48 EPL = 16 Fate Points = 5 DP (rounded down) + 4 DP from 4 times Epic Completionist so the grind difference amounts to 9 DP.

In the new system a fully maxed out character gets 59 DP compared to someone with zero EPL who gets 50 DP (assuming both have the same tomes). Without tomes its 57 vs 48. Thats hardly earthshattering but still some difference.

Compared to right now where the difference is an extra twist slot (from Epic Completionist) and much better twists which is huge.

At level 20 the difference in the new system is 21 AP vs 12 AP compared to right now where its the extra twist slot + much stronger twists.

If you compared someone brand new to epics (so no EDs filled) the differens in the current system is huge, in the new its pretty small.

So, I am definitely seeing the Vet advantage shrink considerably in the previewed system which isnt a bad thing.

I'm reaching the opposite conclusions too (opposite to yours ;P).

Firstly, if we compare just amounts of AP without tomes: 57v48 is ~19% difference (118,75% vs base 100%). Since this system is going to be similar to heroic AP lets compare it: assuming 80 ap is 118,75% (maximum amount player can reach, not counting racials since they're connected with other (rr) system and they're not to be freely spend in any tree) then 100% would be 67 AP. So we could say: if heroic trees were changed now to work like new ed trees, then base amount of ap for lvl 20 player would be 67 and remaning ones would be heroic reincarnations bonus only. I think thats a pretty big difference assuming you play something else than sorc who have no reason to invest in more than 1 tree.

Amounts of fate points player can get without reincarnations and tomes right now is 25. 25 allows you to take, for example, 2xt3 twists and 2xt1 twists, 3 fate points will be left with nowhere to spend. If we'll add 12 points from epic reincarnations and slot from e compl, the difference is (of course thats just example, its pretty obvious you can choose twists tiers differently):
- additional t1 twist
- one tier t3 to t4 upgrade
- one tier t1 to t2 upgrade
If we speak about additional t1 twists: lets be honest, majority of possibilities is just a junk. Cocoon maybe if you got nothing else to heal (tho it won't be enough at end game anyway, especially for builds without much investment into positive spellpower). +3 action bosts from ld might be handy. Few other things might be handy, but there's nothing so good that one additional t1 twists will be game changing. Don't forget majority of best stuff in EDs are either cores (like in fury) or t6 u cannot twist (like in fatesinger/ld, shiradi (hunts end for ranged)). Of course, depends on specific build, a little upgrade to two twists could make some difference, but for huge majority of mine builds -13 heroic ap would make hundred times bigger difference than few fate points. Of course you can disagree here, but i hope my opinion here is a at least a little universal for other players too.

No idea where you saw that in new system difference at 20 will be 21v12. Quoting Coco:"

If this is your first time in Epics, you will begin with a bare minimum of 24 Fate Points (from unlocking the 12 currently available trees), which means you'll start level 20 with 8 Permanent Destiny Points."

So new player at lvl 20 will have 8 AP. Comparing only situation of new players to current system: lvl 23 player (with 2 m xp):
- in current system such player will have fully capped ed with 24 points to spend in it, including the most powerful cores/t6 enh. of course he would have to max other ones, but assuming he's not interested in it or he's capping one ed every life: he could run from 23-30 with full benefits of capped ed
- in new system new player at lvl 23 will have 20 ap to spend in 3 trees, maximum T3 and T2 core, so i don't see here huge benefit for someone (new players/casuals/alts) who is having problems in low epics

For everyone who already maxed EDs in current system it'll be exactly the same situation, except happening earlier (access only to low tiers/cores vs fully capped ed since lvl 20).

And for the record: i find maxing ed just ridiculous and outdated, especially in game with so many grinds. Alone: getting rid of need to max eds would be really good move to support new players/alts in epics. But changes suggested by ssg here are just shifting the requirements from maxing EDs (what you could do casually, assuming you don't need to run with best possible twists ever you can run in fully maxed ed since lvl 23) to mandatory farming EPLs (and it's important to remind, that maxing ed is much shorter grind than farming 48 pls).

Summarise:
- cause of changes everyone will go slower through epics, no matter new player or not. The only "benefit" new player will experience will be much slower unlocking skills in ed comparing to old system. Old players, with maxed EDs now will have access only to few ap and lower tiers of enh/cores. Result: everyone will be weaker/slower in lower epics, everyone who haven't farmed all EPL yet will do it slower than in current system, what will result in further widening the gap between uber compl and vets/newbies. If someone with 0 epl could farm all EPL in (just example) 6 months, now he'll need 12 or more.
- new players/alts instead of capping one ed (maybe some xp in other ones for twists, but depends on build choices they might not need all fate points from maxing eds) will be pushed into farming 48 epls (384m xp for all epls vs 24m maxing all eds)

[Targal]

When I look at these ED changes, I see yet another gap between extreme grinders / long-time veterans and more casual players (note the qualifier). I have a half-dozen ETRs on my main (plus Completionist and a dozen racial lives) specifically because I don't enjoy the epic grind.
Frankly, this makes me want to play even less in epics.

IMO, the Twists of Fate system was an acceptable gap between players who had maxed EPLs and players who didn't. The latter were still viable. Each EPL grants passive and active powers that, on their own, justify those lives. Similarly, Racial TRs introduced some power creep via Racial AP, but these are constrained by how little power is socked away in racial trees, especially at lower tiers, and often provide QoL benefits instead (eg, Nothing is Hidden).

Under the new system, there are sixteen AP obtainable from EPLs. If T5 EDs require 21 points and non-ETR'ed players start with 24-27, they're going to be able to invest very little in anything but their primary tree. So long as power is balanced semi-reasonably between T2 and T3 abilities (as they appear to be, similar to the current EDs), ETRs will introduce versatility, but also a lot of raw power.

This discrepancy between players is going to look and feel like the Reaper trees, but some players have had ten years to obtain their EPLs. This new system won't grant any room for progression/improvement on EPL'd characters. Instead (and power creep aside) it will make EPLs (and therefore grind) far more important.

To reiterate a previous comparison, the difference between RTR AP and the new ED AP is quite stark; the amount of grind between the two is comparable, but while RTRs give me something to casually strive for, the imminent ETR changes to AP feel mandatory make these extra points feel mandatory. I'm no doomsayer, and I don't particularly enjoy epics under the current system, but these changes would likely keep me from continuing to play.

I say this not as a threat / promise / warning, but merely as context for my experiences as a player somewhere on the spectrum between the altaholics and the uber-completionists.

I have an idea to handle that in some way. the needed amount of Fate points was increased up to the progression... then...

[1~10 Fate Points] Converted as 1:1 (total 10 from 10)
[11~20 Fate Points] Converted as 1:2 (total 5 from 10)
[21~29 Fate Points] Converted as 1:3 (total 3 from 9)
[30~43 Fate Points] Converted as 1:4 (total 3.5 from 14)

I am not sure the value is much at the 1~10 range, but I wanted to say we can make this as "little grinding" with not-much needed grinding.



--------
EDIT: Another calculation way

[1~6 Fate Points] Converted as 1:1 (total 6 from 6)
[7~18 Fate Points] Converted as 1:2 (total 6 from 12)
[19~36 Fate Points] Converted as 1:3 (total 6 from 18)
[37~43 Fate Points] Converted as 1:4 (total 1.75 from 7)

[Lencrennis]

This entire thread is an excellent case study of your users being very good at telling you when something is wrong, but nearly useless when it comes to how to fix it.

[Propane]

I don't understand why L29 is empty. There is no need for any of those rows to be empty. When I level I want choices. The proposed progression is a vast improvement but... for goodness sake, why leave *any* empty rows? Can you not consider ED Tier 5 to L29, let me experience a max power ED for a while before I hit 30, get bored and TR?

Best guess - the amount of loot / gear that comes on line at LV 29 - lots of power added then...

I fully agree that T5 should be 28 vs 30 - ~2Million work of XP grind with out those abilities would be tough and more grindy then grindy..

[mikarddo]

I'm reaching the opposite conclusions too (opposite to yours ;P).

Firstly, if we compare just amounts of AP without tomes: 57v48 is ~19% difference (118,75% vs base 100%). Since this system is going to be similar to heroic AP lets compare it: assuming 80 ap is 118,75% (maximum amount player can reach, not counting racials since they're connected with other (rr) system and they're not to be freely spend in any tree) then 100% would be 67 AP. So we could say: if heroic trees were changed now to work like new ed trees, then base amount of ap for lvl 20 player would be 67 and remaning ones would be heroic reincarnations bonus only. I think thats a pretty big difference assuming you play something else than sorc who have no reason to invest in more than 1 tree.

Amounts of fate points player can get without reincarnations and tomes right now is 25. 25 allows you to take, for example, 2xt3 twists and 2xt1 twists, 3 fate points will be left with nowhere to spend. If we'll add 12 points from epic reincarnations and slot from e compl, the difference is (of course thats just example, its pretty obvious you can choose twists tiers differently):
- additional t1 twist
- one tier t3 to t4 upgrade
- one tier t1 to t2 upgrade
If we speak about additional t1 twists: lets be honest, majority of possibilities is just a junk. Cocoon maybe if you got nothing else to heal (tho it won't be enough at end game anyway, especially for builds without much investment into positive spellpower). +3 action bosts from ld might be handy. Few other things might be handy, but there's nothing so good that one additional t1 twists will be game changing. Don't forget majority of best stuff in EDs are either cores (like in fury) or t6 u cannot twist (like in fatesinger/ld, shiradi (hunts end for ranged)). Of course, depends on specific build, a little upgrade to two twists could make some difference, but for huge majority of mine builds -13 heroic ap would make hundred times bigger difference than few fate points. Of course you can disagree here, but i hope my opinion here is a at least a little universal for other players too.

No idea where you saw that in new system difference at 20 will be 21v12. Quoting Coco:"



So new player at lvl 20 will have 8 AP. Comparing only situation of new players to current system: lvl 23 player (with 2 m xp):
- in current system such player will have fully capped ed with 24 points to spend in it, including the most powerful cores/t6 enh. of course he would have to max other ones, but assuming he's not interested in it or he's capping one ed every life: he could run from 23-30 with full benefits of capped ed
- in new system new player at lvl 23 will have 20 ap to spend in 3 trees, maximum T3 and T2 core, so i don't see here huge benefit for someone (new players/casuals/alts) who is having problems in low epics

For everyone who already maxed EDs in current system it'll be exactly the same situation, except happening earlier (access only to low tiers/cores vs fully capped ed since lvl 20).

And for the record: i find maxing ed just ridiculous and outdated, especially in game with so many grinds. Alone: getting rid of need to max eds would be really good move to support new players/alts in epics. But changes suggested by ssg here are just shifting the requirements from maxing EDs (what you could do casually, assuming you don't need to run with best possible twists ever you can run in fully maxed ed since lvl 23) to mandatory farming EPLs (and it's important to remind, that maxing ed is much shorter grind than farming 48 pls).

Summarise:
- cause of changes everyone will go slower through epics, no matter new player or not. The only "benefit" new player will experience will be much slower unlocking skills in ed comparing to old system. Old players, with maxed EDs now will have access only to few ap and lower tiers of enh/cores. Result: everyone will be weaker/slower in lower epics, everyone who haven't farmed all EPL yet will do it slower than in current system, what will result in further widening the gap between uber compl and vets/newbies. If someone with 0 epl could farm all EPL in (just example) 6 months, now he'll need 12 or more.
- new players/alts instead of capping one ed (maybe some xp in other ones for twists, but depends on build choices they might not need all fate points from maxing eds) will be pushed into farming 48 epls (384m xp for all epls vs 24m maxing all eds)

A new player WITH tomes is 12 DP at level 20. A new player WITHOUT tomes is 8 DP at level 20.
A full vet WITH tomes is 21 DP at level 20. A full vet WITHOUT tomes is 17 DP at level 20.
Either way its a 9DP difference.

Current system @cap example. Twists: Martial Hymn, Meld into Darkness, Haste Boost, Legendary Tactics, and Dance of Flowers

New system @cap example: 9 more DP (from 50 to 59 with tomes) but still in just 3 trees. I challenge anyone to find 9 DP extra worth of abilities within those restrictions that add even a quarter of the value the 5 mentioned twists give.

@level 20 the difference in power between the 5 twists (huge) and 9 more DP useable only in T1-2 is even more profound as far as I can see, though that also has to do with the level gating in the new system.

We certainly agree that epic leveling due to level gating will suffer big time, thats not the issue here.

We certainly do not agree that the gap between vets and new players have increased, quite the contrary, as 4-5 great twists currently holds much more power than another 9 DP as far as I can tell, partly because you are not limited to 3 trees for those twists but can cherry pick the stuff you really like.

[arminius]

This entire thread is an excellent case study of your users being very good at telling you when something is wrong, but nearly useless when it comes to how to fix it.

The fix is we all wake up and go to the bathroom and find Bobby Ewing in the shower, and he says, "Good morning!" Roll credits.

[Madja]

Really liking the look of this! Am very much looking forward to playing with multiple destinies and I like that the power is spread out a bit more.

My only dislike is that tier 5 isn't unlocked until level 30. I really hope that those abilities won't be the tree defining ones as that means the people who are doing epic reincarnations will never get to play with them. I feel like they should be unlocked earlier like with enhancements.

[mikarddo]

This entire thread is an excellent case study of your users being very good at telling you when something is wrong, but nearly useless when it comes to how to fix it.

Talk for yourself mate

Here is what I posted already on how to fix things rather than the trainwreck being proposed.

The main issues with the current system is
a) bad for new players
b) bad system for caster levels and stats
c) some EDs are too weak
d) Karma is annoying

a) Fixed easily by unlocking all destinies and filling them up from the start. Boom - new players get a full ED + a few points for twists right out of the box. Earning more points for twists and another twist slot is what you get for playing more. Instant success.
b) Remove the +stats from the trees. Add +1 stat choice at levels 21, 23, 25, 27 and 29. Remove +caster levels from EDs. Add +1 caster level (all kinds) at levels 22, 24, 26, 28 and 30. Slight nerf compared to now, yes, as these are level gate and you cannot twist +stats, but instead you free up points to spend on something else and add flexibility to use any destinity you like.
c) The long haul, no easy fix.
d) Just remove karma and make level 30 enough to ETR, instant fix.
Also, moving down the Destiny Feats to lower levels is a great idea.
Finally, add some strong gear at level 24.

[Udofire]

These changes are just terrible.

[OfElectricMen]

Simplified system? Good
Not having to spend a life in a terrible destiny for your build? Good
Gated abilities? Bad
Level 30+ only abilities? More bad


Destinies need some work.

This is not that work.

[Strider1963]

Sorry, but this just looks like a jumbled mess to me, too much of a pita. And even worse is that by the time I get a toon up to level 30 and get the best enhancements, its time to reincarnate, so whats the point (other than the cap going up past 30. I like the old system better, you stay in on destiny and use the twists to get a few extra goodies.

[count_spicoli]

WIth no change to the perfect twf feat that needs love bad and and bonuses tied to fury opposite adrenaline looks like twf getting nothing. WHy not move twf options to dreadnought. SInce you are tying destinies to classes and dreadnought tied to fighter which should have options for thf, twf, swf and ranged it would make more sense. FIghters are suppose to be the most versatile class. Putting it opposite adrenaline means noone ever will take the twf line. Adrenaline just too good even on twf.