U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Core Framework

[Carrow12]

Just because you've had it good for a while, doesn't mean you should always have it that good. Or that having it slightly less good means you are being punished. The devs are trying to smooth out the way power is distributed in Epics with these new changes. There will still be a sizeable discrepancy between the power level of the vets, compared to others; not just within this new system— but also in the bigger picture when you factor in things like sentient weapons and so on.

They're not trying to "bring you in line" to be entirely in tandem with a newbie. We both know that. So quit it with the hyperbole.

Um... taking level 28 feats and gating them at 30 is kinda punishing us. Lets be real here. Racial Completionist get 13 ap for 39 lives. Epic Completionist get 4 ap for 48 lives. It doesn't equal out in any way whatsoever. And while I never said that the goal was to bring vets "in line" with newbies - it does appear that the playing field is going to be leveled out some, considering everything is going to be gated. So we'll all get to be the same, which is sad. Whats the point of continuously tring and ering if it doesn't really mean anything?

I already agreed that merely making Epic Completionist reward action points doesn't feel very epic. It would be better as a feat that did something cool, like the others. They can give us destiny points through other means, such as the milestones of x number of lives etc.

However— your proposals will bring us right back to square one. You want Epic Completionists to have access to a 4th tree—nay, to a second Mantle— at lvl 20. That's huge! It's also becoming clear to me that you don't understand that most other players will never get to the point where, they too, would also have these perks. But that doesn't matter to you, does it?

Why are you acting like epic completionist is outside of the realm of most players? It just isn't. Most players that I know are either already epic completionist or are in the process of getting there. ETRs do happen.

[Qeistalan]

Epic Past Lives are strong. Compared to Heroic Past lives (and especially compared to someone who has none at all) EPLs are VERY strong.
The Twist of fate slot is/was really just gravy. And that's what this free destiny point(s) is going to be.

And just to be clear, this isn't just my thoughts. I watched the Strimtom dev stream, and this question was essentially asked. And the answer was quite plainly: EPLs are strong. Making E-Completionist do something big would be just too OP.

Your reward for doing your EPLs? That give +12% Resistance to all elements, +36 PRR, +20 AC, +60 HP, as a passive base, and then more on top?
Is: The previous sentence. Even the twist of Fate is mainly used by people for just an extra Tier 1 long hanging fruit twist.

Rewards for EPLs are NOT the same as a Completionist reward. By your dim flawed logic, Heroic/Racial Completionist rewards should be eliminated; after all, all those Heroic/Racial lives already gleaned benefits.

If devs have deemed "Making E-Completionist do something big would be just too OP", then DDO will never receive one more penny of my money. Reap what you sow, SSG.

[SpardaX]

Rewards for EPLs are NOT the same as a Completionist reward. By your dim flawed logic, Heroic/Racial Completionist rewards should be eliminated; after all, all those Heroic/Racial lives already gleaned benefits.

If devs have deemed "Making E-Completionist do something big would be just too OP", then DDO will never receive one more penny of my money. Reap what you sow, SSG.

Dim flawed logic. Lovely. Should Heroic / Racial Completionist be removed? Honestly? Probably. Though Iv heard stories from people who are completionists, that in the case of the Heroic (not racial) one where you actually have to take it as a feat.... they don't even take the feat most of the time cause they have better or more required feats for their builds. So....

But I can't help but notice you avoided the main part of what I said. EPLs are strong. Heroic / Racial PLs are significantly weaker. I'm not saying that what they're giving in the Twist's place isn't weak. But with the power boost that comes with the new destinies themselves, plus the EPL power boost, what I was saying is you were maybe aiming a bit high on what you expect.

And by a bit high I mean, the current proposed reward is a 2~. I would agree with you if you aimed for asking for a 5~. But by asking for both a 4th tree, a 2nd mantle, and the destiny point it's already going to give, you're aiming around a 30~.

The fully charged up Mantles seem to be a level of power not quite as strong as a Heroic Tree Capstone, but definitely around the lv 18~ core. In some trees, honestly maybe the same level of boost as a capstone if it's a weaker one.

JUST, the Mantle.

And you want 2. Among OTHER THINGS.

Tell me friend, since you're so quick to throw out abuse
what would you call me if I came on here and said "Hey I think we should be able to unlock 2 18s, one from 2 different classes"

Because thats kinda how you sound to me right now.

[mikarddo]

But I can't help but notice you avoided the main part of what I said. EPLs are strong. Heroic / Racial PLs are significantly weaker.

I beg to differ.

+2 Spell Pen from each Wizard past live beats out any single EPL by a huge margin if you are a DC caster.
+2 ranged damage from each Ranger past live beats any singly EPL by a decent margin if you are ranged martial dps.
+1 stat and +1 racial AP from 3 RPL beat any 3 EPL after you are Epic Completionist and have the active EPL abilities in place.

So, apart from Iconic PL which are definitely weaker each of EPL, HPL and RPL have situations where they outshine each other. Anyone, if you want to get reaper xp you are likely best off playing 1-30 or 15-30 anyway, thus getting two kinds of past lives so its not really a competion as you gain both with a natural flow of play anyway.

[SpardaX]

I beg to differ.

+2 Spell Pen from each Wizard past live beats out any single EPL by a huge margin if you are a DC caster.
+2 ranged damage from each Ranger past live beats any singly EPL by a decent margin if you are ranged martial dps.
+1 stat and +1 racial AP from 3 RPL beat any 3 EPL after you are Epic Completionist and have the active EPL abilities in place.

.

Ok lets go from the top!

Spell Pen. Is it good? Yes. Sorta. When you need it though. In levels 1-10....almost never actually. In levels 10-30, about 20-40% of the time (depending on what content you play. If Im on a character where Spell Pen is an issue, I avoid situations where enemies have Spell Resistance. And that solves my problem.). Would I take a stack of 3 EPLs over +6 to Spell Pen? I would take literally any 3 EPL stack over it.

-----------

+2 Ranged damage beats any EPL for Ranged toon~

Primal Past Life Stance: +3% Doubleshot per stack of this Past Life.
Passive Bonus: +3 maximum HP and +4 per ten character levels.

X to Doubt.

But then you might answer with "Ok but how about any OTHER EPL?
And I'd say the real power from the EPLs and the whole point Im trying to make, is it comes from the free PRR and HP and AC. Doing +6 damage is definitely nice. But having a 10% less chance to get hit and a -20%~ damage taken when you do is definitely more valuable than +6 damage. Assuming you don't want to be a glass cannon.

Constantly stacking PRR and AC boosts that just keep accumulating from 12 different lives each is just so strong, that people don't even realise it over time.
---------------

+1 Stat and +1 Racial AP.
This is actually a hard one for me. I see the Stat and the Racial AP and I salivate.
Then I see the 1 dead life you have to do to get there and
This is on a curve for me.

In theory those 2 lives are worth more than at least the heroic lives im currently grinding through, but the +1 skill to start with drops that curve so far into the ground that I just can't bring myself to do dead lives when I could be getting a noticeable bonus from doing literally any of the class lives. So your argument here works in a world where you dont have to do a dead life per race. The dead life per race kills it though, at least for me. And as much as +13 or whatever extra AP makes me want to do the racial lives first because doing the TR grind with those WOULD BE BLISS

The 13 Dead lives I know I would also have to do makes me want to never play DDO again, and so I will still end up doing them last. (If I do them at all before I shoot myself.)

Or to put it another way that might be easier to understand in text format:
On average Id say most heroic past lives are about a 2 or a 3. Lets say 2.5
Most epic past lives are around a 4 or 5. Lets say 4.5
That Racial Action Point is definitely a 5-6 depending on race. Lets say 5.5.
The Stat point is around a 3.
The skill point is just 0. Just 0. I mean honestly it just wastes time so If I'm honest, it's probably a -2.

So
Doing 3 Heroic lives adds 2.5x3 = 7.5 "Power"
Doing 3 Epic lives adds 4.5x3 = 13.5 "Power"
Doing 3 Racial lives adds 5.5+3 = 8.5 "Power". But -2 is 6.5 total from my perspective. My time is more valuable to me than this. Which is how it ends up being the thing I'm going to do last. (If ever).

(The -2 -> 3 -> 5.5 is the curve I mentioned)

If it were possible to do "The third racial life" 3 times you'd add 16.5 "Power" which is definitely the best option. But that's not an option. You have to do the 0 life first and it can go die.

And so I am at an impasse. So for this dot point, I guess all i can say is your mileage may vary.

[SpardaX]

Constantly stacking PRR and AC boosts that just keep accumulating from 12 different lives each is just so strong, that people don't even realise it over time.

And I am serious here. When hardcore first came out, I remember a guy came on the forums here and basically said "A Kobold did over 1000 damage to me with Lightningbold in Water Works on R1 this is CLEARLY NOT WORKING please fix"

And I'm like, "Nah that sounds about right?"
So I looked at his name, and it said "Triple Everything Completionist"

So I literally did the maths on all the PLs that just go into blocking damage from LIGHTNING BOLT, and worked out that a Every life character blocks about 45% elemental damage when compared to a first life.

And this has literally nothing to do with AC and PRR. Neither of those things block Lightning bolt electric damage. Those things are on top of that. You guys are powerful. Do not underestimate how powerful you are with EPLs.

Believe me or call me a dim wit, I don't care anymore. You guys have fun.

[mikarddo]

Ok lets go from the top!

Spell Pen. Is it good? Yes. Sorta. When you need it though. In levels 1-10....almost never actually. In levels 10-30, about 20-40% of the time (depending on what content you play. If Im on a character where Spell Pen is an issue, I avoid situations where enemies have Spell Resistance. And that solves my problem.). Would I take a stack of 3 EPLs over +6 to Spell Pen? I would take literally any 3 EPL stack over it.

-----------

+2 Ranged damage beats any EPL for Ranged toon~

Primal Past Life Stance: +3% Doubleshot per stack of this Past Life.
Passive Bonus: +3 maximum HP and +4 per ten character levels.

X to Doubt.

But then you might answer with "Ok but how about any OTHER EPL?
And I'd say the real power from the EPLs and the whole point Im trying to make, is it comes from the free PRR and HP and AC. Doing +6 damage is definitely nice. But having a 10% less chance to get hit and a -20%~ damage taken when you do is definitely more valuable than +6 damage. Assuming you don't want to be a glass cannon.

Constantly stacking PRR and AC boosts that just keep accumulating from 12 different lives each is just so strong, that people don't even realise it over time.
---------------

+1 Stat and +1 Racial AP.
This is actually a hard one for me. I see the Stat and the Racial AP and I salivate.
Then I see the 1 dead life you have to do to get there and
This is on a curve for me.

In theory those 2 lives are worth more than at least the heroic lives im currently grinding through, but the +1 skill to start with drops that curve so far into the ground that I just can't bring myself to do dead lives when I could be getting a noticeable bonus from doing literally any of the class lives. So your argument here works in a world where you dont have to do a dead life per race. The dead life per race kills it though, at least for me. And as much as +13 or whatever extra AP makes me want to do the racial lives first because doing the TR grind with those WOULD BE BLISS

I guess all i can say is your mileage may vary.

For leveling up in heriocs, epic PL, in particular the first 12, are absolute huge, I agree that far. For at cap play, in particular past the first 12 EPL, its less amazing.

My main has 45 EPL, all racials, many heroic PL and only a few iconic PL. The last 15 EPL has done very little for me and has mostly been gained because I wanted to play to 30 for reaper xp while doing racial past lives.

So, I guess the point of view might change the appreciation. Once past epic completionist I find racial PL of much more value than more epic PL for example.
Not that the comparison matters as smart gameplay means going 1-30 and getting both.

[Dandonk]

Kobold do not want.

[Targal]

Maybe, this way?

Epic Completionist:

You have extra bonus based on your current active Mantle.

Primal Avatar: Your Nature Mantle proc cooldown time is decreased by 1 second for each stack of the feat. (3 feats = CD 2s).
Shiradi Champion: Your Prism Mantle proc chance is increased by 1% for each stack. (3 feats = 10% rainbow).
Grandmaster of Flowers: 5% bonus damage to helpless enemies for each stack.
Shadowdancer: 5% bonus damage to helpless enemies for each stack.
Divine Crusader: For each stack of Epic Completionist, your Consecration's cooldown time is decreased by 5s and you gain +2 Smite Evil, while you're in Divine Crusader Mantle.

[Targal]

btw I don't like this "nailing down your build" thing in the new ED system. You can't be always the same role in this game, and changing ED is to let us do the other role to prepare the dungeon or raid.


example 1:

You are Sorcerer.
You take Draconic Incarnation as Main dps.
You take Unyielding Sentinel as extra role (*kiter).
You take Magister as DC caster.
You take Exalted Angel as Semi-healer (when there is no healer)
You can change your role by clicking a button - changing ED.
(Although you need to pay the reset fee, it is not much here.)

example 2:

You are Bard.
You take Spellsinger as Buffer, Healer, and Spell Caster.
You take Warchanter as Buffer, DPS.
You take Swashbuckler as DPS.
You take Feydark Illusionist as Spell Caster (+something).
To change your role, You need to RESET your tree then finish expanding your points to the enhancement.
If you want to change back to your original role, You need to RESET your tree then finish expanding your points to the enhancement.
And if somebody wants to change your role to something else from your original role, You need to RESET your tree then finish expanding your points to the enhancement.
If you are Spellsinger(T5) and there is another Spellsinger(T5) in your party, You need to change your role, of course.

Result: 999,999,999,999 plat to reset + your wasted time (by adjusting your points all day)

the expected situation in the new system:

You are Druid (caster).
You are Primal Avatar as Healer (Heart).
You are Primal Avatar as Spell DPS (Heart).
You are Primal Avatar as Spell DPS (Sky).
You are Primal Avatar as Spell DPS (Thorn).
You are Shadowdancer as DC caster.
You are Draconic Incarnation(TBA) as Spell Caster.
You are Exalted Angel(TBA) as Spell Caster.

Okay, This happens in the new ED system.

Come on.
Please make a build template thing. This is so stupid. the build template thing was already suggested by people in the forum, but this new system looks like you don't care about what bothers people.

The new system looks good for the future design, but It is absolutely a bad idea when you don't solve what's wrong with people.

[kpak01]

btw I don't like this "nailing down your build" thing in the new ED system. You can't be always the same role in this game, and changing ED is to let us do the other role to prepare the dungeon or raid.

This is an excellent point. Thanks for raising it.

Right now it is easy to customize your build for a specific group or quest quickly and for free by changing destinies and twists. The same character can be a tank or a dps or a cc or heals via that customization.

But resetting and re-spending points is punitively expensive and also time-consuming. You're not just nerfing our power, and making the gameplay un-fun, you're also removing all our flexibility!

[Iriale]

btw I don't like this "nailing down your build" thing in the new ED system. You can't be always the same role in this game, and changing ED is to let us do the other role to prepare the dungeon or raid.

This is an excellent point. Thanks for raising it.

Right now it is easy to customize your build for a specific group or quest quickly and for free by changing destinies and twists. The same character can be a tank or a dps or a cc or heals via that customization.

But resetting and re-spending points is punitively expensive and also time-consuming. You're not just nerfing our power, and making the gameplay un-fun, you're also removing all our flexibility!

Correct. Most end gamers play differently when soloing a quest than when going to high reaper or raid, and we use different EDs and / or twists for this. This system will not have the versatility of the previous one and it will greatly damage the possibilities and the fun of the people who are in the cap. Of course, much more will harm everyone who has to do ERs with this level-gated system.

Actually here you see that devs are not aware of how people play, or they would not be trying to make DDO the umpteenth generic mmo.

[Targal]

Just saying this at this chance, "Reset All" button has a bug in its calculation.


If you have 3/2/1 to three trees, "Reset All" should be 3(30 plat) + 2 (20 plat) + 1 (10 plat), but It calculates like 600,000 plat.
If you reset them one by one for each tree, the fee is "3 (30 plat first) + 2 (20 plat * 2nd) + 1 (10 plat * 3rd) = 100 plat.
Hmm, 600,000 plat v.s. 100 plat?

Actually, I overstated it - It doesn't go that ridiculously expensive, but It's true that it becomes weirdly expensive. So, Devs should investigate Reset Point thing as well.
(I don't know the real reset fee calculation, but I am saying what I noticed.)

This is one of un-fun gameplaying troubles.
If SSG can make Reset fee at 0 plat, it is acceptable at that moment (although you don't get a solution for your wasted time, you don't have to hesitate to reset any longer)... in a way, it means Build template is really needed.
Also, I know SSG wants to make usage of platinum, but such usage in "necessary gameplay system" is not a good idea I think.

If you keep the new system with this thing, it will be a terrible feature.

[Iriale]

Just saying this at this chance, "Reset All" button has a bug in its calculation.

If you have 70/9/1 to three trees, "Reset All" should calculate like 70+9+1=80 (800,000 plat) but It calculates like 184,400,000 plat.
If you reset one by one, You can reset it with <700,000 plat(*0% first) + 90,000 plat(*10% more) + 10,000 Plat(*20% more)>


If you have 3/2/1 to three trees, "Reset All" should be 3(30 plat) + 2 (20 plat) + 1 (10 plat), but It calculates like 600,000 plat.



Actually, I overstated it - It doesn't go that ridiculously expensive, but It's true that it becomes weirdly expensive. So, Devs should investigate Reset Point thing as well.
(I don't know the real reset fee calculation, but I am saying what I noticed.)

This is one of un-fun gameplaying troubles.
If SSG can make Reset fee at 0 plat, it is acceptable at that moment (although you don't solve your wasted time).
I know SSG wants to make usage of platinum, but such usage in "necessary gameplay system" is not a good idea I think.

The re-specialization should be free, as it is now. Many people need to change their ED and playstyle when going on a raid or just a dungeon. When I go to a raid with my healer I know that healing is mostly expected from me, with a small contribution to trash, but when I just solo with my healer I know that I have no one to kill those hp-bloated bosses.

If they want to be more like a generic mmo, why do they only take the bad parts and not the good parts of the other games? Currently and for a long time the trend in mmo is to do free re-specialization. What's more, there are many mmo that have several profiles, allowing you to make a configuration for solo and another for raids, for example.

[Merrillman]

I have loved this game. It’s brought friends together to play when tabletop isn’t an option. However, this is the worst possible idea you have ever come up with. It destroys all fun aspects of the game for me and others in my group.

You have destroyed every aspect of DPS. You have level gated, removed all forms of critical damage, taken away feats that make Crit universal and forced specialization in one element, made any DPS (the ONLY thing I like to play)caster pretty much absolutely useless to the group, and made casters even less survivable in end game and particularly reaper (which took me YEARS to actually just get ONE character to a place where he could even come close to surviving in r1-2). Worse, I had to spend a LOT of REAL MONEY to just get where I am. Why? Well I can’t spend 10 hours a day playing. I can spend 1-2 hours, maybe 3 x a week. Not everyone lives in moms basement and can spend ungodly hours “winning ddo.”

You’ve taken stat points away which means spell points and saves are also killed, and made it utterly over complicated with this insane idea of charges. I do NOT understand why you would blow up the game. NOBODY WANTS A COMPLETE REVAMP. Maybe you do, but players do not. We want good CONTENT. Sure, tweak stuff. But do not take away what the core of epic has been. If you have to model it around ENHANCEMENTS.

1. Make all destinies open day 1. To heck w this map hopping.
2. Make it exactly like enhancements where you get 80 points to spend.
3. 8 points per level, all at once at level achievement. 80 by level 30.
4. 1 point per complete sphere (3 ER)
5. 2 points per completionist
6. Make all casters have the same amount of feats as wizard of you have to take away our DPS.
7. 1 stat point of choice per 2 levels of epic to make up for destiny 5 point loss.
8. All epic feats should be open at any time with no level requirement. Not pertaining to legendary feats.
9. Critical damage for all casters should be per level. 2% per level. 30 = 60%, or 1% per heroic, + 2% per epic. . Easily scalable.
10. Spell pen should be per level. +1 per level. +30 at 30. Or, + 1 per 2 levels in heroic, + 2 per level
In epic. This opens up choice to be any type of caster.
11. Arcane spheres: Have a “DPS” tree and a separate “CC” tree. You can do this in each arcane destiny. You can restore the nonsensical killing of Draconic & Magister. Have choices scale for these “caster types” as Caster TYPE trees or paths within the destiny will allow concentration and versatility, but also force a path.
13. Damage type bypass for all specialist elements. If you are forcing specialization, and can only be great in lightning, then your lightning should ignore lightning resistances. Like Tief or Arti.
14. If you insist on taking away DPS, then revamp AC or HP. Our ONLY survivability tool is damage. We already die more than any other character type. Making us unable to solo (and I HAVE TO solo to keep up w my group because I have a LOT of work responsibilities and can’t spend my life playing 24/7 like many can).
15. Just stop making the game less fun. Stop level gating and cutting all the things that make it fun. I don’t want a grinding, frustrating game. I want a fun game that’s actually playable and survivable by all people and not just people who don’t work or have a family. I think you forget that’s why a lot of us play it. For fun. This should not be a source of aggravation on anyone’s life. This kind of nerfing and destruction of the games core fun elements for a lot of people seems to be just that.

[Merrillman]

Why are you acting like epic completionist is outside of the realm of most players? It just isn't. Most players that I know are either already epic completionist or are in the process of getting there. ETRs do happen.[/QUOTE]

Because it IS if you have demanding work and have a family with children. Epic completion isn’t bad. Took me about 3-4 years. Racial and heroic!? I will never have them. It would take me 15 years with the amount of time I can play.

How many hours a week can you play? Me? 8-12 TOPS, on a good week. 2-6 on a normal one.

I can’t sit at a computer 24/7/365. MANY of us can’t. But the few “power” gamers act like “oh this is easy” when it just isn’t. I run a billion plus dollars of peoples money. I do this to get AWAY from stress. To get a mental break. I do not want it nerfed, destroyed, and creating stress in my life. This update will do just that. It kills everything I like about the game and only complicates it more.

[nobodynobody1426]

Tier 1: Level 20, 0 AP
Tier 2: Level 20, 5 AP
Tier 3: Level 23, 10 AP
Tier 4: Level 26, 20 AP
Tier 5: Level 30, 30 AP (you may only be in one Tier 5 at a time)

My only issue with the framework is the T5 being at level 30, at most it should be 28 possibly 29. Most players currently ETR shortly after hitting 30, maybe sticking around for a week to mess around or play with a build some more, forcing them to wait until the end of the game for their exclusive power bump is kind of silly. This is exacerbated when certain ED's shove all their power into T5 while stripping the lower tiers of useful stuff as a kind of giant middle finger to the players.

[Pandjed]

It's gonna be fun watching a bunch of friends die horrible deaths without being able to twist in stuff on the fly before specific instances(I'll giggle at some of them). No Energy Sheath twist will make Killing Time & VoD exciting; and so many other twists for specific stuff that aided in survival. Sure, we'll have 3 trees, but trying to squeeze in the old utility abilities (meld, energy sheath, cocoon, etc.) isn't gonna be viable for a lot of setups. It's going to get really ugly if they keep the current respec plat costs too, being able to swap destiny + twists on the fly was so great for filling in weaknesses/gaps for quests/raids; I'm going to miss that on-demand pre-zoning-in ability to quickly make swaps/adjustments- that was a huge part of the epic feel. I'm sure I'll adjust but I expect a solid learning curve and a lot of legendary deaths on things that are pretty much on farm with the current setups.

I can totally see me using one of my 3 destiny slots just being a "quick twister", as with the amoung of points given and the abilities I like to snatch with my current more played builds, spreading out too far may be counterproductive.

[DRoark]

Thanks everyone for a lot of excellent feedback so far!

Well, to be honest, a majority of the feedback doesn't matter. They're going to do this update no matter what we say, and turn DDO into a barely-worthy-of-an-APP game.

Removing twists, an unneeded charge mechanic, nonsensical tree changes, any L30 requirements (like L30 augments from L29 gear), they're Titanic-ing the playerbase.

This isn't just a "Hey, we're trying to improve stuff!", it's a totally new game, and alot of us will not be riding the Derp-Coaster once the theme park opens.

[cacyreus]

Looking at the table provided its very clear that the natural progression for the Tier 5 epic enhancements is level 29, not level 30.

There is absolutely no need for it to be at level 30. You went to extreme lengths to solve a frontloading problem, there is no need to go into the opposite end of things now.
Tier 5 at level 29, as it is the logical progression to what you present.

This would increase play ability at level 29. With tier 5 and gear, characters can play legendary content, that they will otherwise skip in its majority if they are forced to do so at 30, because they will simply reincarnate.
There is no logical reason for this decision, please change Tier 5 to level 29.