U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Core Framework

[Seph1roth5]

(hopefully starting a trend of NOT quoting the whole post)

Looks good, thanks for listening to our giant piles O feedback.


3: Tier 5s down from lv 30 please. My whole argument is over here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nd-the-Tier-5s


4: Is HP the only thing being redone or was that just an example?

6: I think the charge/build system would be a lot better if charges didn't decay. That way, people wouldn't feel they have to mash a bunch of skills each fight. They still could if they wanted to, or could just build them up and save.

But on the whole I like the look of a lot of ED stuff, really the t5 stuff is my main gripe lol. TLDR I don't spend much time at 30, and with epic/iconic reincarnations not being changed by level cap (I hear), that means people doing a lot of TRs probably aren't going to want to spend much time at 30 either. We'd like SOME time to play around with the cool stuff, even if it's just a level.

[mikarddo]

Howdy folks! We've been hard at work reading and absorbing all of the feedback you have given us over the last week, and we wanted to share more about what we have been discussing. The following was put together by the folks working on these systems as a group, and I'm just posting their work, really:

Question: Are you going to do anything about Reset Costs for the new EDs?


Answer: Yes, we are. Ideally any system doesn't completely bankrupt your character if you would like to spend your point differently. We will have more details once we finalize how the new cost to reset is structured.

Well, that's all we have for right now, although we still want to hear from you about how you feel about this overhaul. Please feel welcome to share your feedback with us!

Dear Cordovan,

First - your post does not show up on the Lam Dev tracker which is a shame as it makes it harder to follow for everyone. Please adjust if at all possible.

Lots of good replies in your post which does address some of the most glaring concerns I have had and seen posted - power in low epics, epic moments, not putting everything currently good in T5 etc. I still think you should reconsider the level gating to be less severe but if T5 is almost all new abilities with almost all of the current abilities in lower tiers thats atleast a step in the right direction.

Wrt. the cost to respec. Please consider giving us multiple setups that we can freely swap between. Many other games already have that and it adds an incredible amount of quality of play. Having to pay to respec every single time is both annoying and tedious. Having several setups to quickly swap between is fun and would create much goodwill. To be honest, its very much needed for the way many of us play DDO - different raids, different quests and even just different group compositions leads itself to needing to set your character up in different ways.

[Steelstar]

Wrt. the cost to respec. Please consider giving us multiple setups that we can freely swap between. Many other games already have that and it adds an incredible amount of quality of play. Having to pay to respec every single time is both annoying and tedious. Having several setups to quickly swap between is fun and would create much goodwill. To be honest, its very much needed for the way many of us play DDO - different raids, different quests and even just different group compositions leads itself to needing to set your character up in different ways.

In the first draft of the Epic Overhaul (the one mentioned in Cordovan's post above the question about reset costs), one of the features we considered was something similar to this, and we did investigations into the scope and cost of implementation. Unfortunately, it's colossal. It's something that could potentially be implemented someday, but is far outside the scope of what we can do as part of this Epic Destiny pass at this time.

[redoubt]

Howdy folks! We've been hard at work reading and absorbing all of the feedback you have given us over the last week, and we wanted to share more about what we have been discussing. The following was put together by the folks working on these systems as a group, and I'm just posting their work, really:

First, I truly want to thank you and SSG for going early on this. I know you are catching hell for the content of it, some from me as well, but getting it out early and being the discussion with us is the only reason some have not yet cut bait.

We have more previews coming up shortly, but as a reminder, these previews are for Update 50, which is a different update than Update 51, which is the update with the Epic Destiny rework. What this means is that although we are still going to be iterating and building the ED framework behind the scenes, you won't get a chance to see it in action until likely after Update 50 launches.

Please understand the importance of the U51 discussion. As an example, I doubt you can put anything in U50 that will take my mind off of U51. I say this with caution because I feel so strongly that it was important for you to get the U51 info out; I don't want to you regret that decision.

I hope you can continue being involved in the U51 discussion even while working U50.

4: Monster and content difficulty

This debut on Lamannia didn't make it explicit enough that we are making big changes to the difficulty of monsters built for older Epic content quests. We're going to make sure monster stats take these changes into account. For comparison, switching a monster in older Epics to our new formulas often results in a loss of Maximum HP anywhere from 25 - 50%, depending on the individual monster's quirks. We will have more information about our monster adjustments in the next Epic Destiny Preview.

When you say "old content" what exactly do you mean? Everything pre-U50? Or stuff like vons and the desert? I ask because the truly old content, while significantly harder than heroic, is not likely to be the issue. Post EDs, new content has been built around having the EDs. That content will need to be reworked as well if you go through with this.

6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System

The overwhelming majority of the feedback has been centered on this, which is why we wanted to take some extra time and discuss our options with this system internally before committing to something. We're looking at several paths to follow, some which make the system less time sensitive, and some that cut it completely. The "charge" system as a whole is not formally necessary for this Epic Destiny overhaul, so if we need to we can move in a different direction.

I appreciate that you and the crew will consider moving away from this system. It feels lousy when you put time, energy and pride into something and it gets rejected by your target audience. That said, I have immense respect for people who can admit mistakes, fix them and move on. Bravo on this one.

[Edwinge]

Question: What's happening to Epic Past Lives?

Answer: Every past life currently available will remain available after this overhaul. The only thing changing with Epic Past Lives is that you will get more Fate Points for your past lives. Also, going forward, you will no longer need to level up an Epic Destiny and gain Karma XP to Epic Reincarnate.

I asked this before and it's still not really answered by this. Right now each past life is tied to a sphere. The original posts said that spheres are going away. How will these be restricted as far as how many and which past life stances can be toggled on at once?

[redoubt]

In the first draft of the Epic Overhaul (the one mentioned in Cordovan's post above the question about reset costs), one of the features we considered was something similar to this, and we did investigations into the scope and cost of implementation. Unfortunately, it's colossal. It's something that could potentially be implemented someday, but is far outside the scope of what we can do as part of this Epic Destiny pass at this time.

Then what about just dropping the respec cost all together?

[Steelstar]

I asked this before and it's still not really answered by this. Right now each past life is tied to a sphere. The original posts said that spheres are going away. How will these be restricted as far as how many and which past life stances can be toggled on at once?

I believe that portion will remain unchanged.

[Seph1roth5]

In the first draft of the Epic Overhaul (the one mentioned in Cordovan's post above the question about reset costs), one of the features we considered was something similar to this, and we did investigations into the scope and cost of implementation. Unfortunately, it's colossal. It's something that could potentially be implemented someday, but is far outside the scope of what we can do as part of this Epic Destiny pass at this time.

It seems like there's an auto-spend feature when you make a first-lifer and choose a path. I remember because I epic tr'd my rogue and was happy to have it auto-pick all my **** from 1-20 (was just going to tr again) lol. Oddly enough that's not an option for future lives.

Any way to finagle that to save and auto-spend pts that way? Kind of like /ui layout save/load ?

[rabidfox]

Howdy folks! *snip* Please feel welcome to share your feedback with us!

Cordovan, your post isn't showing up on dev nor lam dev trackers so some people are gonna miss noticing it.

[Triaxx2]

3: What belongs in Tier 5

On that note, one of the most unexpected pieces of feedback for us was just how much love there was for the concept of an Epic Moment. With that in mind, we can do a better job ensuring that each tree has a T5 ability that matches those expectations, although we want to spend more time discussing internally before committing to that kind of redesign.

4: Monster and content difficulty

This debut on Lamannia didn't make it explicit enough that we are making big changes to the difficulty of monsters built for older Epic content quests. We're going to make sure monster stats take these changes into account. For comparison, switching a monster in older Epics to our new formulas often results in a loss of Maximum HP anywhere from 25 - 50%, depending on the individual monster's quirks. We will have more information about our monster adjustments in the next Epic Destiny Preview.

6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System

The overwhelming majority of the feedback has been centered on this, which is why we wanted to take some extra time and discuss our options with this system internally before committing to something. We're looking at several paths to follow, some which make the system less time sensitive, and some that cut it completely. The "charge" system as a whole is not formally necessary for this Epic Destiny overhaul, so if we need to we can move in a different direction.

3# It's not even the power level of an epic moment, as much as it is the feeling that 'this is why I am focused on this destiny. Fury's old epic moment is Unbridled Fury. And it's great. The entire tree is built around raging and the bonuses it presents. And the Epic Moment is kind of the ultimate expression of that. It's what the rest of the tree builds to. So when you hit that button, all those bonuses show up and you beat whatever you're attacking over the head and shoulders with all that power. New Grandmaster of Flowers nailed the feel in all but name with A Scattering of Petals, providing a huge buff to allies, and a debuff to enemies. It feels both properly epic, and in theme with what a monk exists to do. (Thematically it's also nice to have buff and debuff from the light/dark Philosophies). But it's not so incredibly overpowering that not using it is crippling.

4# It's not really a question of HP. Okay, so Jack Jibbers goes from 40k to 100k from hard to elite. It just means killing him takes slightly longer. But it's the difficulty of hitting mobs with DC's that's really at issue. Even accounting for presumably +3 more to stats, which is another +1 DC, it's very hard already to hit the 140! DC's you need to reliably have a chance of getting spells to take effect in Sharn, which is still the hardest content. Feywild has slightly higher DCs, but has vastly fewer constructs which tend to just shrug off the big Crowd Control effects players use to survive.

6# This one's weird. It works pretty good in the hands of melee's I find, but from the experience with primal trying to stack them up as a caster is... pretty painful. I suspect it'll be easier with multiple destinies to give earning effects, but I'm glad it's being closely examined.

[Lynnabel]

4# It's not really a question of HP. Okay, so Jack Jibbers goes from 40k to 100k from hard to elite. It just means killing him takes slightly longer. But it's the difficulty of hitting mobs with DC's that's really at issue. Even accounting for presumably +3 more to stats, which is another +1 DC, it's very hard already to hit the 140! DC's you need to reliably have a chance of getting spells to take effect in Sharn, which is still the hardest content. Feywild has slightly higher DCs, but has vastly fewer constructs which tend to just shrug off the big Crowd Control effects players use to survive.

This was meant as a point of comparison so that you'd be able to estimate the rest of the statistics. It won't be the only thing changing about those monsters.

[mikarddo]

In the first draft of the Epic Overhaul (the one mentioned in Cordovan's post above the question about reset costs), one of the features we considered was something similar to this, and we did investigations into the scope and cost of implementation. Unfortunately, it's colossal. It's something that could potentially be implemented someday, but is far outside the scope of what we can do as part of this Epic Destiny pass at this time.

What a shame. I cannot begin to understand why that would be so costly but I obviously accept your word that it is so.

In that case the obvious solution is to simply make respeccing free (or a flat, very low cost that does not increase with subsequent respecs). While not as practical as having multiple setups to quickly swap between it atleast offers the needed flexibility. Sometime you need to respec multiple times in a single evening of playing so the cost needs to be low and continue to be low across multiple respecs per day (preferably free).

[elvesunited]

A lot of the issues with the destinies can be boiled down to the following:

Flawed Charge Builder/spender Moves:

"Spirit Blades" is an epic feat almost no one takes. It does decent damage but is murdered by a terrible casting time. The charge builder and spender moves of the epic destinies are supposed to be the building blocks of the destiny. If they are flawed then it weakens the whole destiny. Other flaws may be being too situational or having a bad DC.

Top Heavy Destinies:

Some destinies have powerful abilties only in the top tier and weak ones in the bottom tiers. The growth in power has to be more gradual. After all the entire point of this exercise is level gating. But if all the power for an epic destiny is in the top tier and tier 5 remains locked at 30 ( it should be lower ) then your level gating consists of: 20 - 29 weak, 30 strong. I'm pretty sure that is not what is being aimed for.

Bi-Polar Destinies:

Shadowdancer is now the illusionist / Assassin tree. It is actually impossible for an assassin to spend enough AP to reach 30 without burning AP on illusion enhancing abilities that do nothing for them. Likewise illusionists can't reach 30 without burning AP on sneak attack abilities that mean nothing for them. Rogues that don't use assassinate got nothing. The only answer I can come up with is multi-selection the hell out of the destiny. Illusionists and rogues have almost nothing in common. They don't even build up the same type of charges. This holds for other destinies to. With the exception of a very specific type of arcane archer build Shiradi has a lot in it that doesn't interest ranged characters at all. Divine Crusader should have other options when it comes abilities that require a shield.

General weakening:

Be it Aura of purification becoming Terror and getting its stack limit dropped from 25 to 15. Or Tactics in legendary dreadnought being halved. Or tea with the Queen going from a move that could save your bacon in the middle of a fight to a random buff while shrining ability. ( that one hurt ) And healing spring! Oy Vey! To being forced to invest in multiple destinies to get melee power equal to what it was. ( ranged getting hit worse ) To illusionists doing the math and figuring out their DC is about to drop by several points. ( other spellcasters wait in dread anticipation ) There is a definite sense of weakening here. Why? At least by level 30 one would expect characters to be as powerful after update as before.

[Gratch]

In the first draft of the Epic Overhaul (the one mentioned in Cordovan's post above the question about reset costs), one of the features we considered was something similar to this, and we did investigations into the scope and cost of implementation. Unfortunately, it's colossal. It's something that could potentially be implemented someday, but is far outside the scope of what we can do as part of this Epic Destiny pass at this time.

Thanks for responding. Please keep it on the core coder's list. On my weapon users I don't really reconfigure the entire destiny much. On my casters I do flip between entirely different roles for: better dc casting (magister), better damage casting (draconic), we don't have any healers (EA), and high damage quests/raids (Unyielding). I can see how the new system lets me incorporate more pieces into a single build out, but obviously not easily the T5+'s.

Twists were also nice to change though I'll admit the #1 twist change was to change Energy Sheath for the element most prevalent in a specific quest/raid. Is there anything that could be done in the new system to recover this easy swap 50% elemental absorption? A single tier1 twist from a universal set of T1's maybe?

[Cordovan]

Dear Cordovan,

First - your post does not show up on the Lam Dev tracker which is a shame as it makes it harder to follow for everyone. Please adjust if at all possible.

*snip*

Fixed.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Howdy folks! We've been hard at work reading and absorbing all of the feedback you have given us over the last week, and we wanted to share more about what we have been discussing. The following was put together by the folks working on these systems as a group, and I'm just posting their work, really:



6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System

The overwhelming majority of the feedback has been centered on this, which is why we wanted to take some extra time and discuss our options with this system internally before committing to something. We're looking at several paths to follow, some which make the system less time sensitive, and some that cut it completely. The "charge" system as a whole is not formally necessary for this Epic Destiny overhaul, so if we need to we can move in a different direction.

Thank you

I really dont like a lot of clickie type of abilities and not fond of the builder/spender ideas , but I also feel like i need to reread most of the changes/idea to better understand them.

Thanks

[Stravix]

This was meant as a point of comparison so that you'd be able to estimate the rest of the statistics. It won't be the only thing changing about those monsters.

Thank you Lynn for the clarification.

[mikarddo]

Dear Cordovan,

Much appreciate the detailed post. One thing though I believe you did not address is that of abilities that "trigger on shrining". E.g. Tea with the Queen.
Maybe you could also comment on that mechanic as its.. not very well liked by the players.

[Jerevth]

Cordo, Devs,
Thank you: you addressed a lot of my concerns and many other issues that more knowledgeable players also saw.

I don't like the charge system- it seems needlessly convoluted and appears as if it would add to the behind-the-scenes calculations that you are trying to reduce (aka: Lag summoning)
So I'm glad you're reviewing that. We don't need gimmick-mechanics. Give us a timer and/or a set number of charges.

Very glad that the current top-tier items are being reconsidered for lower levels or more oomph.

I still think we need better gear for the low 20s since Sharn won't carry us as well without all the power level 20 EDs currently give.
(I know, I know; there's just not enough inventory space, but no one makes you farm it.)

[Vordax]

In that case the obvious solution is to simply make respeccing free (or a flat, very low cost that does not increase with subsequent respecs). While not as practical as having multiple setups to quickly swap between it atleast offers the needed flexibility. Sometime you need to respec multiple times in a single evening of playing so the cost needs to be low and continue to be low across multiple respecs per day (preferably free).

I echo this sentiment, changing twists and destinies was free and easy, the new system with a cost is going to make this less likely to do. This will result in less flexibility, usually a strong point for DDO.