U51 Early Preview: Main Thread

[gringofoot]

People play games for amusement and to relax, it is a kind of escapism from the stresses and concerns of the world. MMOs are part of that. DDO players have invested a lot of time, money, and emotion into their characters. They have made their characters they way they want them, as such the proposed update fifty-one should take nothing, NOTHING, away from what already is. Add to it if you like, but take nothing away, leave the enhancements, their time of availability, and their point costs the same, not only does that include enhancements but also the inherit attack power bonuses. Many of us long-timers have thousands of dollars and hours invested in the game, we are your customers, the ones who pay the bills, and the salaries, as such vexing those who have remained loyal for years is a slap in the face.

Absolutely!

Building characters takes time. Add things, shift them around so that they are available in a different system, but this big hork that makes players weaker while taking -5 from a quest boss that has a zillion HPs is the polar opposite of an improvement.

Revealing it in this "early look" then telling us that a) devs have been working on it for 24 months, b) "no one plays epics" without proving that the current ED system causes that problem - is the polar opposite of feedback.

This is no reward or consideration of, nor communication to - the current player base.

It really seems that the actual reasons for this U51 hork have likely not been made public. Dishonesty from SSG / DDO / EG7 will not translate well toward game longevity.

Someone on another thread about U51 suggested that DDO / SSG / Daybreak / EG7 is tied to Russian money laundering. At this point, I might even put on my tin-foil hat and go along with that theory.

:-/

[Hawkwier]

Looks like, based on Cordovans post, there is willingness to address 1., 2., and 6. from my previous post.

That's a good start at this stage!

[SeriousNonsense]

I just have the one question. I am currently done with epic destinies. Three times for each of the sixteen epic destinies, each destiny tree fully unlocked, all four spheres charged with 6M Kharma and, if it existed, the certificate has been framed gathering dust on the wall for a long while. Will I have the new system fully unlocked? Mostly unlocked? Partially unlock? or 'it's time to start playing something else because we're not giving you anything in the new system' unlocked?

Serious Nonsense

[difasja]

Looks like, based on Cordovans post, there is willingness to address 1., 2., and 6. from my previous post.

That's a good start at this stage!

No. Not for me. I need this to be scrapped if they want my $$$ in the future, and I do spend a lot. Leave the current system in tact, with only small changes please. Since there has been no honesty as to why this is being done I have no way of determining what they should do, but the EDs should reamin essentially the same. I would like to see the level 20-28 loot updated in each quest. That's how they will get me to spend more and play more Cheers

[Hawkwier]

No. Not for me. I need this to be scrapped if they want my $$$ in the future, and I do spend a lot. Leave the current system in tact, with only small changes please. Since there has been no honesty as to why this is being done I have no way of determining what they should do, but the EDs should reamin essentially the same. I would like to see the level 20-28 loot updated in each quest. That's how they will get me to spend more and play more Cheers

And you're absolutely entitled to that view and have it respected. I don't profess to opine for anyone but myself.

For me, it's a good start, not necessarily a satisfactory end-point. YMMV.

Hopefully they will evolve something that makes us both happy.

[Stravix]

No. Not for me. I need this to be scrapped if they want my $$$ in the future, and I do spend a lot. Leave the current system in tact, with only small changes please. Since there has been no honesty as to why this is being done I have no way of determining what they should do, but the EDs should reamin essentially the same. I would like to see the level 20-28 loot updated in each quest. That's how they will get me to spend more and play more Cheers

And at this point, I would be upset if they didn't change the heavy frontloading of the current ED structure, but to each their own.

[blarhblarhblarh]

Now with lamania is easier to have an idea of what they are doing. Some changes are not bad but overall they are and don´t fix DDO problems, just makes the game ready for more levels.

The lazy designer are transforming DDO in neverwinter mmo and charging players who wants to keep some of the power for it with a "I will never do it again" mini expansion. The changes only serves SSG so they will slowly give the player power back in the "new" epic levels. But DDO players are not the same players as others MMO and don´t want the same generic wow clone choices. From the beginning DDO tryed to go in a diferent path and this is the reason it survive more than most games. What will be new about having the old power back? nothing.

SSG don´t deserve the faithfull playerbase And once the consumers loose trust in a company it´s over.. This move will not give DDO any new players, will not make the game easier to understand and will not make the olders players happy so why do it? no issues adressed. Not a single inventory space, not a single bug fix, better way to collect loot or a character builder inside the game to help new players.

SSG told players that they would NEVER release another paid mini expansion for LOTR foruns. Google it and you will find. Now DDO got a mini expansion and all the players that want to stay competitive in high level will have to pay for it so the nerf will not hit so hard. So why this kind of joke comes to DDO? why SSG don´t listen to the players wich 90% are against most of the changes? does the company don´t want money? or the company don´t want players? in both ways there is something really strange about how the developers aproach to this update idea. It´s like if nvidia release the RTX 4080 with specs from 5 generations ago and overcharge people for it so why pay more money to have less fun? People who enjoy running in a 300kph car won´t have the same fun running in a 200kph car and the designers pretend this is not an issue with at least 80% of the end game players saying they will leave or take a break from ddo.

So good luck for the players that will stay. It may be a good time to do past lifes since cap will take many months to be bug free. My vip is alredy off and I will renew when ddo does something for the players, not against the players. Maybe when they do changes in the support or bank system.

[Puddinhead]

I just have the one question. I am currently done with epic destinies. Three times for each of the sixteen epic destinies, each destiny tree fully unlocked, all four spheres charged with 6M Kharma and, if it existed, the certificate has been framed gathering dust on the wall for a long while. Will I have the new system fully unlocked? Mostly unlocked? Partially unlock? or 'it's time to start playing something else because we're not giving you anything in the new system' unlocked?

Serious Nonsense

From what I understand, you'll have ALL points to spend in any 3 trees you choose, as long as you're 30. If you TR or ETR, you'll keep all of your points, but won't be able to access higher tiered "epic" enhancements until you reach the minimum level for that enhancement. Like, imagine the racial enhancements; at level 1, you still have 16 points from past lives and tomes, but you can't access the higher core ones until you attain their min level.

[Puddinhead]

Regarding the main thread, I'm willing to wait and see how it pans out. Ravenloft, Sharn, and Fey have been fun for years, so for me, that's earned a look at what is next.

I will not support the build up of a number of charges to use epic enhancements. It just sucks, everyone acknowledged it, and that's why it was removed from the game. No one opposed it, no one asked for it to come back. Hopefully I can work around it like I did in the original epic destinies if they choose to keep it.

I'll get over the slog of possibly having a tougher time in epics on higher reaper. I got through it before, when I had no reaper points, mostly from either doing things myself on R1, or finding decent groups that could breeze through most of it. I see a lot I don't like, but I've played the game for 15 years and got over other things in the past I didn't like.

For those on the edge of leaving, I'm curious what your vision of the future is. I'm asking politely, not trying to make a point or pick a fight. Assuming they drop this update and spend time on fixing bugs, smoothing pain points, and adding more content, what will happen? You'll have every past life, every piece of gear, every reaper point, and most content won't present a challenge. Do you think at that point you'll want the level cap at 40, or would your preference be starting alts and enjoying the challenge again or something else? Again, not trying to prove a point, just trying to see this from as many perspectives as I can.

[Feuerle]

Overall I like the principle of getting the epic "enhancements" progressively. This is quite silly to get full power at lvl 20 from ED (except the 5 free fate points at lvl 29 30) and no more boost from them coming along with the levels. I find it quite fair but it is not the called goal.

However, despite not studying accurately the changes I share that getting the most interesting abilities only at lvl 30 seems a bit punitive. Then the satisfaction due to the constant progression is a bit amputated as you can't enjoy the ultimate features before being capped (and next tr).

Moreover, even if it is only a very early preview, to be called a revamp it has to be definitely clear where the buffs are, at least at the end. For example lvl 30 (I would prefer 29 or even 28) abilities could be upped as they are available to the end and no more from lvl 20. Reading the different feedbacks it is not obvious these are buffs. It has the name but not the taste so pips might feel a little abused. Or call it a rebalanced system.

Therefore I truly believe some work/improvments have to be done to support the goal(s?).

Again, I like the idea of the new system and find it more balanced. Keep it but it is just far from finished.

[Theolin]

My dislike for all the Destiny changes is that there are now more button mashing needs, I very much dislike button mashing .... I do not play games that have a lot, this now makes my main toon over the top ... please stop with button mashing I already have 5-6 that I have to do every 2 minutes ... and that is annoying ... and now your adding 12-15 second ones .... with the cooldown of the same .... why just why ....

[DarkSkysz]

People who want to Epic TR will never use the stuff on tier 5/6... we already have useless stuff like that in the game called legendary feats.

Keep the destinies skills unlocked once you hit level 20. At least one of them. The other two could be gated by levels to simulate the old twist of fate.

[Merrillman]

Regarding the main thread, I'm willing to wait and see how it pans out. Ravenloft, Sharn, and Fey have been fun for years, so for me, that's earned a look at what is next.

I will not support the build up of a number of charges to use epic enhancements. It just sucks, everyone acknowledged it, and that's why it was removed from the game. No one opposed it, no one asked for it to come back. Hopefully I can work around it like I did in the original epic destinies if they choose to keep it.

I'll get over the slog of possibly having a tougher time in epics on higher reaper. I got through it before, when I had no reaper points, mostly from either doing things myself on R1, or finding decent groups that could breeze through most of it. I see a lot I don't like, but I've played the game for 15 years and got over other things in the past I didn't like.

For those on the edge of leaving, I'm curious what your vision of the future is. I'm asking politely, not trying to make a point or pick a fight. Assuming they drop this update and spend time on fixing bugs, smoothing pain points, and adding more content, what will happen? You'll have every past life, every piece of gear, every reaper point, and most content won't present a challenge. Do you think at that point you'll want the level cap at 40, or would your preference be starting alts and enjoying the challenge again or something else? Again, not trying to prove a point, just trying to see this from as many perspectives as I can.

So much easier to fix than this MESS.

1. All items scale as you advance. That eliminates the need for ridiculous farming of mats twice.
2. All augments scale as you advance.
3. Some gear w min level - say, level 8 gear and in level 8 quests - only scale from their minimum level. Still making you want to get great gear.
4. Scaling provides permanent framework that can continue to scale as the game advances and levels advance.
5. % nerfs especially for DPS casters should be 1:1 vs monster nerfs. PERIOD.
6. No charging systems ever. EVVVVERRRRRR.
7. Those who cannot sit on for hours on their server waiting for hours before starting to even begin a raid? Nonsense. Scale raids for 4,6,8,10 & 12 characters. This is the ONLY way to REALLY create balance. Raid able characters will always outstrip people who cannot find raid grouping.
8. Reaper point XP should be given for REGULAR epic levels for VIP’s For EVERY dungeon played on elite. THAT is something people would pay for, but maybe at a 1/5 of playing reaper rate. This allows people to “catch up” with people with no life who can reaper every day multiple times.
9. Alternatively, allow 1/2 (rounded down) Reaper bonuses on non reaper content. That entices people to want to play reaper who can’t normally do so and makes this MASSIVE (especially DPS) loss sting less. This makes survivability better especially for DPS casters who are getting destroyed in survivability by this change.
10. If they don’t do something I already know 5 people who will be leaving this game, and that’s almost all the people I personally know who still Play after 15 years.
11. Consolidate to two servers. Some servers have very little population and are at a great disadvantage. I am one of like 5 total people that are on my server in my guild at the times that I can play.

[False_Gods]

First of all everything looks good so far. Nothing is as game breaking as anyone is making it out to be and everyone should just trust in what the developers are doing. That said one thing I'd like to see in ED's is some kind of partial evasion bonus.

Something for characters who don't have evasion: "When you succeed with a reflex saving throw you avoid 10%/20%/30% more of the damage (Or you take 10/20/30% less on a failed roll if you have evasion. )

Hope its something that can be considered. I think everyone wishes they had some form of evasion towards end game. Seems like most people have a high reflex save but people who happen to have evasion are standing there like nothing is going on while anyone without evasion is getting hammered with half damage on everything that is coming in.

[SheIsMiiiiiiinnnne]

Now with lamania is easier to have an idea of what they are doing. Some changes are not bad but overall they are and don´t fix DDO problems, just makes the game ready for more levels.

The lazy designer are transforming DDO in neverwinter mmo and charging players who wants to keep some of the power for it with a "I will never do it again" mini expansion. The changes only serves SSG so they will slowly give the player power back in the "new" epic levels. But DDO players are not the same players as others MMO and don´t want the same generic wow clone choices. From the beginning DDO tryed to go in a diferent path and this is the reason it survive more than most games. What will be new about having the old power back? nothing.

SSG don´t deserve the faithfull playerbase And once the consumers loose trust in a company it´s over.. This move will not give DDO any new players, will not make the game easier to understand and will not make the olders players happy so why do it? no issues adressed. Not a single inventory space, not a single bug fix, better way to collect loot or a character builder inside the game to help new players.

SSG told players that they would NEVER release another paid mini expansion for LOTR foruns. Google it and you will find. Now DDO got a mini expansion and all the players that want to stay competitive in high level will have to pay for it so the nerf will not hit so hard. So why this kind of joke comes to DDO? why SSG don´t listen to the players wich 90% are against most of the changes? does the company don´t want money? or the company don´t want players? in both ways there is something really strange about how the developers aproach to this update idea. It´s like if nvidia release the RTX 4080 with specs from 5 generations ago and overcharge people for it so why pay more money to have less fun? People who enjoy running in a 300kph car won´t have the same fun running in a 200kph car and the designers pretend this is not an issue with at least 80% of the end game players saying they will leave or take a break from ddo.

So good luck for the players that will stay. It may be a good time to do past lifes since cap will take many months to be bug free. My vip is alredy off and I will renew when ddo does something for the players, not against the players. Maybe when they do changes in the support or bank system.

I guess we can expect some high level feedback next week that addresses player concerns?

[Zarkarion]

This new system has the potential to be a great replacement for the previous painful ED system. Having to play in Off Destinies to get Fate points. How did anyone ever think that was a good design?

So good luck with the new system.

But, for the love of all that is holy, scrap the Builder/Spender system. Nobody wants it. It won’t be fun.

[Chaios]

I see a lot I don't like, but I've played the game for 15 years and got over other things in the past I didn't like.

Not sure what expecting the client to just get over things they don't like says about the client... or what it says about the service provider that expects it.

[erethizon]

Revealing it in this "early look" then telling us that a) devs have been working on it for 24 months, b) "no one plays epics" without proving that the current ED system causes that problem - is the polar opposite of feedback.

Did the Devs say something about "no one plays epics"? If so that wouldn't surprise me. And I'll add, if that is the case, it isn't because of the ED system (as you point out). It is because the monsters immediately get disgustingly more powerful. I dread reaching level 20 each and every life. My character has been level 20 for months now, but after leveling and putting on my gear and setting up my ED's I couldn't bring myself to play because epic levels are absolutely miserable to play, especially at the lower epic levels.

If people aren't play epic levels it is because epic monsters do 2 to 3 times the damage and have 3 to 5 times the health that they should have. We get a minor increase in power when we hit level 20, thanks to ED's, but our opponents get a massive increase in power that we simply can't compete with. Epic levels are terrible because our opponents are simply too difficult, especially at the lower epic levels. Now that they have done the stat squish it is time to drop the power of epic monsters even further than they already have.

[erethizon]

So much easier to fix than this MESS.

1. All items scale as you advance. That eliminates the need for ridiculous farming of mats twice.
2. All augments scale as you advance.
3. Some gear w min level - say, level 8 gear and in level 8 quests - only scale from their minimum level. Still making you want to get great gear.

This game needs this so very badly. They just did the stat squish to make all gear the same at any given level. Now lets make it so that no matter what you are wearing the gear has the stats of your level. Put on a +1 strength item at level 1 and it will automatically increase in line with the Cannith Crafting tables as you level.

[CraithRhandir]

Where to start?

I recently came back to DDO again, it is my regular game I always get back to when the mood strikes me. Spent a few hundred Euros on expansions, points but usually not dedicated enough to get VIP.

This time was different though, because this time my kids joined in - both were not born when I started to play DDO back in idk actually - 2013? My older one already got a few expansions, while the younger just started. One friend just came back when I told him about it, two others are waiting for us to catch up to continue. Things looked good until yesterday, when I found this thread.

The great many options of DDO being one of the selling points, you can play simple characters, complex characters, nearly anything you can imagine you can play - but it looks like this is about to change.

The new Epic Destinies are a nightmare. It is lacking in 3 major ways, while slightly improving two things.

First the good things (or at least the not so bad things):

• you no longer have to level epic destinies you have zero interest just to play with the one you want to. I didn't particularily enjoy the Fatesinger on my main, and my older is aiming for undying sentinel, but is a Fighter - so some grandmaster leveling required first. Just opening ALL EDs from the start would have solved that.
• not as frontloaded when you reincarnated. Now it is levelgated though.

And the worse things:

• Instead of the old system where you could mix and match and swap destinies according to your needs you are now shoehorned in one (with some points in one other and minimal in a third). Old system allowed me to use support others with the proper epic destiny, adjust to quests, especially with the great twist system). Now it is fire and forget, if the solo build does not have the tools to help others, tough luck. My older is close to epic levels, I was planning to use a support build ED to help his fighter, with some healing ... well I guess we won't be playing something else together instead.
• The new trees are very simplistic - the old trees always had a few abilities that were useful for any type of build, so you could mix and match something that is playable (again, maybe not for Reaper 10, but we are happy playing Normal + Hard, while I like to do Elite, but mostly solo - less fun for the kids). My main Epic Destinies were the shadowdancer and the primal avatar, the new versions are really bad (mind you, probably ok for casters). But ironically all the others are not much better for my playstyle, so if you want to play a melee character, you have to play the brute. Hulk Adrenaline Smash! Embrace the pain! The whole seeking balance line of Primal Avatar made for a character with less clickies and enjoyable to play, or the executioners strike / consume abilities gave my shadowdancer some alpha striking ability - what good is assassination DC now? unless you are built for one single enhancement from a single class?. <sarcasm>No problem giving every caster multiple instant death abilities, but a mere martial character - ridiculous </sarcasm>
• no more simple options, all things are short cooldowns (but to long to use regularily), with short durations, requiring keyboard-piano from the players. Especially a pain for less experienced players like my kids, they are not interested in Reaper 10, they are happy with normal and maybe hard, useless micromanaging with the charges will scare away the casuals.

I have played a lot of DDO, and I do plan to enjoy it for now, until this disaster strikes. Money spending is on hold, no sense in investing in a game that goes in the wrong direction for me. Won't buy the new (and old for my kids) expansions, we will utilize what we have for now, until we see a future again for this game.

The current suggestion is salvageable, but keeping the current unique design while opening all trees allows the addition of new EDs (for money, of course), removes the need to level unwanted EDs, and if you could passively level an inactive epic destiny you could enjoy the game the way you want.

Sunken Cost Fallacy means that this mess will go through (with some cosmetic changes to claim they listened to feedback). Goodbye DDO, game with the most flexible character options, hello bland cookie cutter MMO mechanics

(Yes, I am quite frustrated, frustrated enough to log into the forums and post for the first time. Update 51 kills the game for me, one of my favorite games of all times, that I finally get to share with my kids.)