U51 Early Preview: Main Thread

[rabidfox]

As much as I appreciate previews, this is a bit premature. There's too much that doesn't work yet within EDs to provide insightful feedback.

Yeah, too many trees missing (or broken abilities) to really get a feel for much of it. The only thing that stood out was not being a fan of the charge system; I liked a bunch of the new abilities but I want charges cut and just the abilities put straight in.

[arminius]

As much as I appreciate previews, this is a bit premature. There's too much that doesn't work yet within EDs to provide insightful feedback.

The problem is, though, that the idea of what they are doing is showing through - and those major design goals aren't likely to change

-- the level gating
-- the explicit purge of all the best or most interesting stuff, and the restriction of what remains behind much higher barriers
-- the builder/spender mechanic, which is generic video game nonsense and has no roots in Dungeons and Dragons at all

[Gregen]

I have very mixed feelings. I never liked the old destiny system. Being able to freely swap destinies and even being forced to play in off destinies if you wanted epic past lives was nonsensical. So at the very least, I prefer this change of a progression style that has existed for heroics. However, I'm not so keen on the changes to the destinies themselves. I understand the need to rebalance trees due to being able to take up to three destinies, but is it really necessary to remove epic moments? Are these coming back to cores later?

Empyrean Magic, Endless Turning, Interrogation are all gone from Divine Crusader. This is a big deal. Beyond just a minor boost to spell power and crit chance, Interrogation was nice for its debuff property. Even if it wasn't very strong, purification was nice. Does Endless Turning really need to go? It was great for clerics that use a lot of turns. Empyrean Magic I can at least somewhat understand. It's a powerful ability and would be available to anyone using the Divine Crusader tree, but I still feel like this could be a tier 4 ability.

What I really dislike is the charging system present across all destinies. Building charges and spending them is not something that needs to exist for all classes and playstyles. This is a huge shift for gameplay. Please reconsider this shift in design philosophy. In my honest opinion, it is not fun for this to be a universal rule. I would rather have more flat passive bonuses that compliment the classes, which are the main appeal (for many of us) to D&D.

Also, will there be more previews of the destiny system? I can't properly evaluate how I feel in full when Exalted Angel isn't yet available.

[Marshal_Lannes]

With so much changing I'm excited to see how this all unfolds. No doubt it will change how our characters perform. Since such sweeping changes are being made, I hope the Devs monitor how they affect the game and are willing to make rapid Update patches to address the inevitable issues which will arise.

[jetster11]

Basically Everything My Build uses to thrive and survive is gone from the trees or is only available at level 30.


I can totally say i would not be able to play without these capabilities. I have two shooters one in shiradi one in shadowdancer.

In Shadowdancer

Relies on Meld for those Oh sh*t moments, particularly in high reaper where everything one shots a light armor/ evasion build
Consume for when the ridiculous amounts of mobs start overwhelming my character (clear a bunch of the mobs before they 2 shot me (140PRR, 100 MRR Cap, before
reaper)
Executioners Shot (One shot on a failed assassinate 30% of the time) . It is a core of my build.So this character is dead for anything more than EH (with 103
Reaperpoints).
Shadow Form (no 25% incorporality, no +20 bonuses bonuses to Hide and Move silently) until level 30, I use this all the time to approach to do esecutioners shot and
get extra sneak attack damage and point blank.
No Dark Imbuement (critical during damage bursts)
No Sealed Soul
Tsunami (I use to knock down mobs when they start overwhelming me). This is apparently going to a Druid Spell Only). I also use to proc some greensteel effects also.

Character 2
In shiradi

No Nerve Venom until level 30, today I have at level 20
No Hunts End until level 30 and only if you take this destiny as the capstone. Today i have at level 20.
No Stay Good to bypass Good DR when needed.
No Stay Frosty (Keeps those ridiculous amounts of mobs from overwhelming a kiter build. ) I always twist on alll my shooter Builds, I also usually twist Otto's also for some CC.

Basically almost everything I do to stay alive is gone with nothing to replace them for leveling. A few are still there but only at level 30 and only if you take that destiny as a capstone. As you have it now, I honestly would have no interest in playing either of these characters ever again in Epic and would have to find some other class to make it remotely fun.

Meld is critical for survival for almost any non Tank build in enything more than epic elite, because cloth or light armor builds can not achieve the PRR/ MRR to survive being one shotted without Meld /Improved evasion to mitigate when a reaper or champion gets too close. The future version would be almost no help in surviving an o **** moment. Killing a Red name reaper taking a few swipes before they die, at 30% that means you are DEAD, DEAD, DEAD in the 15-20 seconds you need to kill the Red Name Reaper.

[DagazUlf]

I spent a good bit of time on Lammy with my primary character transferred over for comparison. I predominately enjoy melee combat with Two-Handed Fighting, or some Two-Weapon Fighting. (Fighter with a greatsword has been my mainstay since pre-beta.) Enjoyment of the game over the years has always been the active and immersive melee combat. Focusing on movement, attacks, positioning, situational awareness, and party coordination has always provided great enjoyment over the years and years of play-time.

My experience on Lammy is definitely not that anymore. Now the focus seems to be micromanagement of a bunch of clickies and timers. So much so, that I cannot even keep track of everything while simply doing damage on a test kobold. Actual combat in dungeons was simply annoying and lacked any gratification at all.

This whole building of charges was just a completely awful experience. It's reminiscent of the Great Blitz Fiasco, you know... that system that everybody complained about to the point where it was changed. Well, now we have it back with multiple new flavors!

That said, I also tried out my Rogue Mechanic/Ranged Combatant to get a feel for the separation of melee/ranged charge usage. It was a lot easier; about half as awful as melee.

A very problematic thing about this strategy of having charge builders and spenders is that it does not work well with the already existing enhancements that are basically doing the same stuff. You end up with multiple activated attacks/abilities that not only overlap, but in some cases are now not as attractive since it won't help you build a charge.

An example of destiny ability and enhancement conflict: Thief Acrobat leveraging in some Legendary Dreadnought.
You've got quick strike, momentum swing, shrouding strike, sly flourish, sweeping strikes, lay waste, dire charge, vault all vying for space on your hotbars. Then add some uncanny dodge, spinning staff wall, attack haste boost, etc., that also want to be on a hotbar.
Now, figure out
- which of those build charges
- which expend charges
- which have bonus DCs
- which cause bonus damage
- which reduce threat
Next, decide what order these go in
- which you have to do first to maximize your dps
- which help your defense
- which will be on similar timers
- which will have no timer or a long timer
- which are useless without charges
Don't forget any of your Reaper Memento clickies that may also want some space on that hotbar, too!

All of these charge building attacks that I checked out also have super long/slow animations that completely disrupt and annihilate your melee combat damage over time and combat immersion. All of a sudden I'm stopping my attack sequence to just do some flamboyant awe-inspiring over-my-head weapon swing! Awesome.

Overall, it also seems characters come out weaker with less damage output (probably due to a lack of epic moments).

I'm done with Lammy at this point, it's just making me angry.

P.S. One thought I had was maybe the charges could be gained as a percent chance with successful attacks, with a guaranteed minimum per some number of attacks (say, 26% chance on each attack, minimum 1 charge over 6 attacks or something). Probably modified with extra points spent, or based on Melee Power, or feats, enhancements... whatever.

[difasja]

Wow. It is much worse than I expected, and I expected bad changes.

Devs, don't do this. Listen to your players. Drastically changing a game that players love to a completely different style that devs like better never works. Think about what happened to D&D 4ed. This could have been a decent game on its own if wotc hadn't tried to impose it on the D&D brand. Instead, the players found everything changed and the edition was a failure. It was the same with Dragonlace and the Fifth Age. It has happened with video games too. Don't do it, devs. The time you have lost from work on this will be nothing compared to the results you can reap from angering your players.

A lot of people are already mad at the recent nerfs. A lot of people have been very annoyed with the introduction of your over-the-top grind and the way you've killed the alts for a long time. Don't do this. You can seriously damage the viability of your game.

Devs: I've been playing DDO for over 13 years, this is a disaster, please don't do it. I don't really understand what problem you think you are tying to fix. But please don't do it. What a waste of time enerty and effort on your part. I will certainly leave the game and take the significant $$s I spend on it elsewhere.

[elvesunited]

Charges should go. They don't add to game experience. They detract from it.

Abilities that give benefits when you shrine should go. I know from Heroes feast that players just don't like doing it.

If an epic destiny is for multiple different types of characters then if there is an ability that is only useful for 1 type of character then a multi-selector should allow the option of a different ability for the other type of character. Biggest Offender? Shadowdancer for illusionist and assassins. Every assassin ability should have a multi-selector that offers something for the illusionist. Every illusionist ability should have a multi-selector that offers something for the assassin. And that holds for non-spellcasting epics destinies as well. Fury of the Wild should have a multi-selector for those abilities that require raging for those like tempests who don't rage.

Defining abilities should not be stuck at high tiers where you can only use them at very high levels. If it is an extremely powerful ability then a lesser version should be offered at a lower tier with upgrades to the ability being offered at higher tiers. Best example: Hunt's End from Shiradi.

There are some high Tier abilities in these epic destinies that are incredibly weak. Stuff that no one would actually take. There are also those that make no sense at all. ( I'm looking at you, Grandmaster )

Finally an epic destiny should be able to stand on its own. You shouldn't be forced to put points in another destiny just to make your main destiny viable.

[SpardaX]

Basically Everything My Build uses to thrive and survive is gone from the trees or is only available at level 30.


I can totally say i would not be able to play without these capabilities. I have two shooters one in shiradi one in shadowdancer.

In Shadowdancer

Relies on Meld for those Oh sh*t moments, particularly in high reaper where everything one shots a light armor/ evasion build
Consume for when the ridiculous amounts of mobs start overwhelming my character (clear a bunch of the mobs before they 2 shot me (140PRR, 100 MRR Cap, before
reaper)
Executioners Shot (One shot on a failed assassinate 30% of the time) . It is a core of my build.So this character is dead for anything more than EH (with 103
Reaperpoints).
Shadow Form (no 25% incorporality, no +20 bonuses bonuses to Hide and Move silently) until level 30, I use this all the time to approach to do esecutioners shot and
get extra sneak attack damage and point blank.
No Dark Imbuement (critical during damage bursts)
No Sealed Soul
Tsunami (I use to knock down mobs when they start overwhelming me). This is apparently going to a Druid Spell Only). I also use to proc some greensteel effects also.

Character 2
In shiradi

No Nerve Venom until level 30, today I have at level 20
No Hunts End until level 30 and only if you take this destiny as the capstone. Today i have at level 20.
No Stay Good to bypass Good DR when needed.
No Stay Frosty (Keeps those ridiculous amounts of mobs from overwhelming a kiter build. ) I always twist on alll my shooter Builds, I also usually twist Otto's also for some CC.

Basically almost everything I do to stay alive is gone with nothing to replace them for leveling. A few are still there but only at level 30 and only if you take that destiny as a capstone. As you have it now, I honestly would have no interest in playing either of these characters ever again in Epic and would have to find some other class to make it remotely fun.

Meld is critical for survival for almost any non Tank build in enything more than epic elite, because cloth or light armor builds can not achieve the PRR/ MRR to survive being one shotted without Meld /Improved evasion to mitigate when a reaper or champion gets too close. The future version would be almost no help in surviving an o **** moment. Killing a Red name reaper taking a few swipes before they die, at 30% that means you are DEAD, DEAD, DEAD in the 15-20 seconds you need to kill the Red Name Reaper.

If your character is in shadowdancer, pick that as your 1st tree, a different martial tree as your 2nd tree, and just...
Keep using Meld? Get 50% dodge instead of 95%. You say you're on a light armor evasion build so I hope your base dodge is somewhere between 10-30% already.
That's still 60-80% dodge.

Except constantly. Not 15s out of 2 minutes.

[jakeelala]

suggestion:

leave ED system in place as is
remove all ability score options in EDs and replace with new interesting abilities
Remove karma BS
level gate existing EDs (but give people all the points to spend if they've previously capped the ED).

This is all you needed to do to smooth the power curve and not completely change the meta. Most of the og EDs are artful, but incomplete. They need nipping and tucking not complete changes.

I don't think all the whining about being nerfed matters at all. If you guys need to universally reduce PC damage 15 years into the game, go for it. If people like playing this game, they'll keep playing it if it gets a little harder.

they will quit though if you kill good meta/mechanics

[elvesunited]

suggestion:

leave ED system in place as is
remove all ability score options in EDs and replace with new interesting abilities
Remove karma BS
level gate existing EDs (but give people all the points to spend if they've previously capped the ED).

This is all you needed to do to smooth the power curve and not completely change the meta. Most of the og EDs are artful, but incomplete. They need nipping and tucking not complete changes.

I don't think all the whining about being nerfed matters at all. If you guys need to universally reduce PC damage 15 years into the game, go for it. If people like playing this game, they'll keep playing it if it gets a little harder.

Speaking for myself I like the the ability score options in the ED's. I often take them over the more colorful but ultimately not very useful abilities.

[bls904c2]

i have very hard time trying to find constructive things to say about this hot mess.

players are still playing normal and hard to level in epics and really this will make epics that much more of a slog.

please i want to see this game last i dont want to see the game as those that play heroics vs those that play cap with no one in middle anymore.

please i beg you this will kill epic tr's. you are killing off part of your player base.

[Natashaelle]

Glad to see this finally going more public.

[redoubt]

Why?

Why are you going down the road you are going down? This seems like a new round of nerfs following on the heals of wrecking alchemist, inquisitive, twf etc...

edit: I mean, I am super glad you chose to put this out very early so you could get feedback.

At the same time, the posts I have read have been hesitant to say the least since you first floated the idea of messing with the destinies. No one I run with wants gated destinies. No one I run with wants to you move ED stuff behind level 30.

The changes to Dire Charge and Mass Frog away from being feats is a bad change. Same with moving so many things we used to twist into places we can no longer twist them.

I am trying to follow along, but you are making it very difficult to stay.

[neojosh60]

(Come from THE truth that monk is the best class)

Why? Do you guys hate melee players that much or am I just missing EVERYTHING? After constant nerfs of melee characters what even is the point to being one anymore?

Casters literally blast through huge groups of enemies many levels below quest level. 1 spell, all dead. (from both divine and arcane casters)
Melee struggle with large groups (and are out damaged by casters on bosses).

So, it makes me wonder why you guys despise melee dps so much. The ONE decent AOE that monks had is getting ripped away to be replaced with what? some garbage +1/2/3 hit/dam? WHO CARES ABOUT THAT WHEN EVERYTHING DIES BY A CASTER WITH ONE SPELL BEFORE ANYONE GETS TO IT ANYWAY.

I've been off and on with this game since the beginning, and while I enjoy it I just don't see the reason for these changes as they stand. I'll give them a shot, because it seems I won't have a choice if I want to continue playing this but my foots back out the door already, we'll see if the rest of me follows along or pulls it back in.

Good luck with your changes, I'm going to pre-emptively stop my VIP from renewing and make decisions upon release.

[lcollard]

This new destiny system will make epic life much more difficult and time consuming...
This is simply a big nerf.
I don't understand because players want some new things, like new enhancement trees, new content, new mechanics, new classes, new races, new feats, upgrading old stuff...
Not nerfing something nobody complaints about.
All this development time spent to make players sad
You need to attract your players not to make them run away

Ok so i make some test on Lamania and I should say sorry !
This system opens a lot of build possibilities (3 trees) and new mechanics with building the charges (quite fast mixing the trees)
So now after testing i find it pretty fun !

It is true we loose some power at level 20 that you recover at level 30 because the good abilities like +1 crit multi on 19-20 comes too late i think

Keep going !

[Zdevor]

The thing about this that no one seems to be noticing is that there are now general melee CC abilities in a lot of the trees. Grandmaster of Flowers has some nice AoE stuns. Fury of the Wild has some trips, an AoE trip at Tier 5.

People are super worried that "Dire charge is the only good melee attack and now it's in LD and I dont want to be in LD" but no one seems to be noticing that yes, they planned for that, by putting some good melee attacks in the other melee trees as well so you don't need to take Dire Charge or be in LD. The only thing the other ones don't do is Dire Charge's run towards the enemy. Which half the time misses the guy I want it to go to or does some strange U-Turn or stops randomly.

Dire Charge is not just about the stunning as U wrote. Lots of players use DC as a fast change direction skill. Which is awesome and powerful.

I like to build toons with a theme and purpose behind the build (flavor builds). It would feel awkward when I havent got monk or barb levels and have to use Drifting Lotus for CC. Thats just stupid for me. There are more functional players who can live with that. I cant. We are not the same.

[Dandonk]

the builder/spender mechanic, which is generic video game nonsense and has no roots in Dungeons and Dragons at all

The building/spending seems like a really awful idea to me as well. We already have a LOT of attacks and boosts to micromanage, we really don't need more. What is fun is cool attacks like EiN and consume... but it seems our fun is wrong.

[Zdevor]

Probably no new opinion incoming, but just to confirm a lot of things said before my thoughts about the changes:

The good:

• The top level posts provide the impression you really put some heavy thoughts into this system
• I have the impression the new system can support a much wider variety of builds (just the basic concept, not with the details provided so far)

The bad:

• All new shinies aren't shinies but feel like streamlined super generic close to irrelevant number buffs. 6 PRR here, 10 MRR there, etc. pp *yawn*. Especially self-healing related stuff feels tuned towards 2010 heroic numbers. 2d10 heals every few seconds, even with heal amp and whatever counts you cannot really rely on that. It might save 1 actual heal over the duration of a quest. And thats outside of reaper. In reaper, especially higher ones, you can only make use of temp HP. Seeing numbers like 5 temp HP + 5 per charge makes me wonder if you have a drinking game going, where you have to drink everytime someone claims you haven't played your game in years.
• You built up a very, very nice diversity of builds with basically all stats (exclude con) to hit and damage. Paired with some feats and enhancements we had a huge variety of viable builds (yes, not all where best in spot for R10 stuff, but having specific builds for the hardest content because they work best, will always be the case, so i ignore that). But in Epic/Low-Reaper gameplay basically any properly thought through build could contribute with its unique playstyle. I might be wrong, but from all the posts I read we have less viable build options as you separated feats strictly between caster stats and physical stats. So even with dipping into different trees, having the "game changers" in T5, massively limits choices. (Just think about wisdom monks, they can go LD for dire, but have to go back to STR/DEX as main stat to have something meaning full)
• While I know its impossible to calculate all the impacts on leveling speed and difficulty, at least put some information in there that you consider updating some scalings, especially in lower epics directly in this update and not "at some later point if we see the need". I am all up for a challenge, and basically i am done with PLs so why do I even care but the area 20-23 is already not so much fun, as there is no real gear update since you picked up your lv 15 sharn stuff. I see some struggles incoming for non FotM builds when all the real juice is missing in that area. There is a massive power jump for monsters when you step into epic. I do not see that jump on playerside with the available T1-3 stuff and one destiny feat.
• Shadowdancer in specific, it was a ED that had a lot of tactical aspects with consume, executioner and puppetmaster. Now for rogues its just some stat boosts here and there, thats it. From what i see thats the peak of making everything the same and super boring. In addition with the missing attribute bonuses, i think we have lower assassinate DCs (so far I saw no replacement for the DC loss, and bonus splashing from other EDs is not available as for tacticals where there are some options)

The ugly:

• The general taking away of really epic feeling uniqueness of several trees. Even if numbers would be the same, its just that little extra of your ED, like Blitz, or EiN (yes it was mentioned its moved, but i dont see where to atm) or unbridled, it was just something that felt special and not like just another number buff.
• Taking away feats that were usefull to make us use others. I am pointing to my drinking game assumption, if you consider one of the other feat choices there even remotely relevant, drink. Why not start with: Here are our buffs for all the useless feats and how we think we can make them relevant again. THEN state you need to bring down Dire Charge and Mass Frog as you feel the power vs effort is too high. And not "We move them because you use them too much". If you have a restaurant and everyone orders the same two meals, you do not remove them, you rethink the rest of what you offer.
• Charges. Simply because there are so many issues with hits and buttons not properly registering in mid-fight scenarios and opening a fight with a special attack, especially in high reaper can cause misses due to starting with your lowest to hit in the chain. This alone will cause so many lost charges that it annoys me. If you want to rewards micromanaging this stuff, buff monks with all their useless finisher moves. But keep the other builds viable with a less button intesive smashfest. We really got enough of those 20s things we want to keep up.

Every of your word is gold here my friend. 100% agree

[difasja]

This tiered approach is really a bad idea, it is already difficult enough having access to the full shiradi tree at level 20 as a shooter to try to do EE or R1 with 103 reaper points and quite a few past lives. losing all the goodness of Hunts end, nerve venom , pin,ottos whistler, etc, etc, etc and a loss of twists from any three trees i want was critical to surviving. This entire concept is ill conceived and at the very least you should open up each tiers much earlier. at 20 you should be more like tier 1-2, at 24, access to 3, at 26 access to tier 4, and at 28 access to tier 5. As many people have said here end game starts at 28-30, particularly at level 29 and above. The gear defines this. Honestly, if this system stays the way it is currently implemented , I doubt I will even spend any real time in Epic levels anymore as it will make my preferred build have to play at EH levels again vs currently soloing at reaper 2-3 pretty easily (no I am not even close to an uber build but I am pretty well capped out in advancement in terms of gear and filigrees and many lives).

Having to lose an entire tree to pick up cocoon of the available three we can choose is just stupid, when now we can twist in cocoon, and twist in two more feats at level 4,3 at lvl 20 and have a maxed out destiny (why not let use spent points in as many trees we want (or at least more than three). Wow, talk about loss of playability.

Sad i wasted my time farming so much epic / legendary gear and past lives. I guess I will just play in heroics when i am bored with no real game objectives other than the joy of killing stuff.

On the positive, this will free up a lot of disposable income I might have spent here. No I am not threatening to leave. I will still play , I just wont spend much which I think is the main goal of most viable MMOs (to have their players willing to spend to advance the power of their characters and for new content). .

This is mostly correct, I started in 2007, mostly the whole time, I left for a while a couple of times due to my annoyance with the Devs who I don't often see eye to eye with on what D&D is all about. This is the end for me, I've decided to end my VIP today (note I did not realize they don't refund VIPs, at least the way I bought it, so I'll be a forced VIP till Feb 2022), and the about $1000 I spend per year on points ends as well, I may play heroics occasionally for free, but probably not (not sure there will be DDO in 12 months if this happens = very few big spenders will be left in the game as they will almost all leave). This is so bad and so off track it tells me the Devs have completly lost their way. I will check in maybe in Dec and Jan to see if they implemented this mess. If it was abandoned I may come back as a free to play member, we shall see. Good luck to you all. One last thing this entire build up charges and then use them to do stuff is not a D&D thing and it has no place in D&D; it is a **** video game thing. Devs - get a brain, take all that stuff and throw it in the trash can.