U51 Early Preview: Main Thread

[rabidfox]

ED reset costs seem...very excessive...

Its 5000 per point spent, per number of resets. That seems like a lot, compared to right now where it only costs a trip to the Fatespinner. Resetting 50 points spent would be a quarter million. Resetting them again the same day would spend a half million.

I get there needs to be more plat sinks, and plat is generally cheap, but this seems like a pure tax.

I hope they do something like either make it free respecs for VIP or at least make it cost zero plat for a few months. It's gonna be a sharp learning curve figuring out all new builds across this many trees combos and it's gonna get silly expensive to experiment on how to just back to normal.

[Xaxx]

you guys do realize when you nerf this hard (and no one can say this isnt just a blanket nerf along every board) your going to loose a portion of your player base.

You cant really take the one melee control ability you have built your level cap experience around, lock it to one destiny and then take that destiny and remove 2/3rds of its damage and go yep all good, and expect people to go yeah this is cool..... or is it please sir I'd like some more?

Sorry guys giving epic the power creep it gets over heroic and then your big change is to make the epic stuff have heroic power levels.....

I mean the idea to take something thats already very sloggy in 20-28 epic and make it even more of a slog is so far down the list of good ideas, nat gann as an iconic hero character class is waving at it from a few miles up....

[mikarddo]

Unless the entire point to these changes is to try to sell more Epic Ottos boxes by nerfing epic leveling you are going about this the wrong way.

Twists are a FUN system because you get to cherry pick the stuff you really want from many different trees. Being able to easily swap to another ED or change twists for free is also FUN. Getting the full ED tree at level 20 is FUN and much needed as epic quests are much harder than heroic quest - there is still plenty to look forward to in epics, mostly feats and very much level 29 gear, so there is no need to spread the gains out.

Having access to just 3 trees is limited ALOT compared to taking twists from up to 5 trees apart from your main tree (thats up to 6 trees in use). Having so little power in low epics is NOT fun. Removing or severely nerfing or levelgating most of the currently strongest options is NOT fun (the list is really long, most good stuff seems to be getting the nerf hammer some way or another). Having more mediocre stuff is much LESS FUN than cherry picking a few strong things.

The main issues with the current system is
a) bad for new players
b) bad system for caster levels and stats
c) some EDs are too weak
d) Karma is annoying

a) Fixed easily by unlocking all destinies and filling them up from the start. Boom - new players get a full ED + a few points for twists right out of the box. Earning more points for twists and another twist slot is what you get for playing more. Instant success.
b) Remove the +stats from the trees. Add +1 stat choice at levels 21, 23, 25, 27 and 29. Remove +caster levels from EDs. Add +1 caster level (all kinds) at levels 22, 24, 26, 28 and 30. Slight nerf compared to now, yes, as these are level gate and you cannot twist +stats, but instead you free up points to spend on something else and add flexibility to use any destinity you like.
c) The long haul, no easy fix.
d) Just remove karma and make level 30 enough to ETR, instant fix.
Also, moving down the Destiny Feats to lower levels is a great idea.
Finally, add some strong gear at level 24.

Basically, scrap the entire new system you posted which looks much less fun to use, in particular in low epics which are already the least fun, and do this instead.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I spent a while looking over the new ED trees. Here is something to consider. Is it too complex for new players? I think of other MMO's I have played over the years and those games are very linear on leveling up. Same skills at the same level nothing changes.
This game is full of customization with multi classing, different feats, enhancements etc.. DDO has a huge learning curve already. Now it is even more complex because you have to think about what 3 trees to pick in ED, which skills to take in them. Which mantle to wear, what to use for builders, spenders, enhancers.. Which mantle do i keep on, when to swap it, what ability to use to build up charges.. It seems pretty complex now like this to relearn everything. I cant imagine a new player trying to figure all of this stuff out. The idea and concepts are nice, but part of me feels it just adds more complexity to a game that already has a huge learning curve compared to other games. Im fine with it, i can learn it, but I just think of keeping the player base fresh and getting more people to play.

Here's the thing, though... is it more or less complex than the *current* ED system? Imagine being a new player who just hit 20. "Ooh, this ED looks like a lot of fun! Wait, I can't claim it? Urgh, I have to claim something in this sphere two spheres away? I have to level it, then go over to Martial, level it, go over to another Martial, level it, then go get my first one in the right sphere, level *it*, and yay now I can finally do the ED I actually want to play in! Meanwhile, I've hit 26 and taken Toughness because I didn't bother maxing any of these EDs I didn't care about, ugh. And oh look, I'm approaching 28, and still haven't maxed one, let alone two... and what the heck are all these twists?"

Vs.

"Oh hey, this system looks very similar to the enhancement system I've been doing for the past 20 levels! Well, I figured out which three enhancement trees I wanted, now which three EDs do I want..."

[mikarddo]

Here's the thing, though... is it more or less complex than the *current* ED system? Imagine being a new player who just hit 20. "Ooh, this ED looks like a lot of fun! Wait, I can't claim it? Urgh, I have to claim something in this sphere two spheres away? I have to level it, then go over to Martial, level it, go over to another Martial, level it, then go get my first one in the right sphere, level *it*, and yay now I can finally do the ED I actually want to play in! Meanwhile, I've hit 26 and taken Toughness because I didn't bother maxing any of these EDs I didn't care about, ugh. And oh look, I'm approaching 28, and still haven't maxed one, let alone two... and what the heck are all these twists?"

Vs.

"Oh hey, this system looks very similar to the enhancement system I've been doing for the past 20 levels! Well, I figured out which three enhancement trees I wanted, now which three EDs do I want..."

For new players much of that can be helped by simply filling out all EDs out of the box. That way a new player can pick any ED and fill it right away plus have a few points for taking up to 3 twists.

[rsking]

TL;DR at the bottom of the post

As some have mentioned already the fact that we will lose alot of power the moment we hit 20 is a HUGE nerf across the board especially those of us that run reaper (my self included) I have multiple toons that have hit 20 on hardcore in current season 4 and in pasts seasons as well. Speaking from experience of starting fresh trying to do reapers in epic WITHOUT ED's capped is "do able" BUT here lies the problem we currently WAIT til we hit 30 usually so we have at least a few twists or are able to at least get into the tree's we need for our twists to make it semi easier.

Even on live where I have all the tree's capped the moment I hit 20 I gain a HUGE boost that is needed when running reapers as many of the quests between level 17-19 and the 1 HEROIC level 20 quest and the 2 level 20 raids that are also heroic are a PAIN without the power boost specifically the legacy quests from shavarath and dreaming dark. Which were designed to punish zergers as well as those who are unprepared or those who are not tanks with MASSIVE hp pools, even with the power creep we have now on first life toons.

and running newer content or even content that is part of the old epic content can be brutal depending on the quest even with maxed out destinies tree's and multi completionist toons if aren't careful or don't have the right gear. (yes I know we have players who have capped reaper I'm getting there) there are those who no reaper xp (either because they choose not to or they refuse to) and for those of us who have 20+ or even 100+ reaper points the moment we hit 20 we already have a semi easier time running reaper over elite cause of the reaper point bonuses we get for that.

But locking out our ED's to levels after we have spent dozens of hours (some people weeks/months) capping them so we can have access to the twists we actually USE vs the ones available is different from build to build - play style to play style - person to person and group to group. I'm mainly a solo player doing r3-4 in heroic's and in some epics (just started actually but I can do it consistently with less then 13 RP)

I don't use ED ablitys that effect others usually (sure the standard cacoon and maybe a damage boost aoe or defense boost/resist) but I mainly use solo boosting twists from 4 different ED's while I sit in my main ED. This pass will lock me out of 2 ablitys be it active or passive regardless(1 ablity before I hit 30).

while it may not seem like much its a HUGE nerf to be locked to level as well as we lose most of our bonuses we had in our ED tree's and the power we got from our twists to help us get to level 23 if people weren't running epic elites/epic reapers already when they hit 20.
---

TL;DR

• most twists are based on builds, play style, group set up, and/or usefulness
• level capping ED's is a bad idea leave it as it is
• limiting it to 3 tree twists is bad as some use up to 5 trees (4 for twisting abilities)
• current content was designed with the current power scaling in mind of the average player base this change could nerf the current standard build upto or beyond half of their current making reapers or even elites more key holed into more specialized power builds and tanks requiring specific gear more so or being out right removed from high level elite/reaper in favor of kiting builds.
• solo players who don't have time to wait on people joining or who just prefer soloing may have a harder time.

---
if i'm out of touch on something feel free to let me know, I'm a solo player now days and have made it to 5k 2x on hard core and 20 in every season. so critisim is welcome as i'm speaking from my point of view as a DPS/trapper and a hp tank

[kmoustakas]

Nope.

Make a new game instead. This system was around for too long, you can't up and change it like that.

[mikarddo]

Now, if you insist on going through with this new system, as you likely will, you really should make it less restrictive.

a) Access to 6 trees rather than 3 (just like in heroics) for more flexibility.
b) Level gating T3 at level 21, T4 at level 23 and T5 at level 25 to make it much less punitive to level up in epics.
c) Add 10 destiny points at level 20, and add just 3 destiny points per level rather than 4 to not have the system too heavily backloaded.
d) Free to reset destiny point allocation, or free for VIP and cheap for others. The curremt system allows changing ED and twists for free, dont make the new system less flexible.
e) Lower the number of points needed to get to T4. With T4 being 20 and T5 being 30 and a max of 59 points you will pretty much get a T5 tree, a T4 tree and maybe a few points in T1 in a 3rd tree. If you have less than 59 points you wont even get T5+T4+T1 but either have to stick to T5+T3+T1 or only get to use two trees. Lower the prereq for T4 to 15 pts and possibly lower the prereqs for T2 and T3 as well.

This way things are less back loaded and more flexible making for much more fun options and gameplay. It wont change that many strong effects seem to be nerfed badly or full gone but atleast it wont make the entire new system completely ruin the leveling process in epics nor too inflexible at cap.

[SpardaX]

That is a lot of new stuff to figure out for sure.

The initial impression is - you are removing or gating the good stuff I am currently using - so getting to pick more stuff from 3 trees will be much less fun or powerful than having 4 or 5 twists.

Basically, getting more mediocre abilities does not make up for losing a few strong ones.

Examples:
- Meld is nerfed very badly.
- Dire Charge is now a Tier 5 in LD making it somewhat exclusive and level 30 only (so no enjoying it from 29 to 30)
- Mass Frog is now a Tier 5 in PA, and is now level 30 only.
- Consume is gone (unsure if it is in a tree we cannot see yet)
- EiA is moved somewhere else that we cannot currently see
- Hunts End + Nerve Venom is now T5 making it level 30 only! (ranged builds will be very weak leveling)
- Adrenaline is no longer useable by ranged.

Also, leveling up in low epics will be much less fun than currently as so much power is lost. The Mantles look very weak in comparison.

Additionally, the whole "builder-spender" system with charges just look - annoying. I really suggest you drop that idea entirely as it just looks complex for no reason or gain and overall unfun.

Basically, all the fun/strong stuff in the trees we can see now is nerfed in some way or another. Will other fun and strong options be figured out? Maybe, time will tell.

Just 1 thing, Meld is definitely different, but personally I think having between +10% - 60% dodge uncapped with a duration of 20s and a 15s cooldown, is a buff compared to 95% dodge for 15s with a 2 minute (105s not including 15s uptime) cooldown.

If the update goes live as is, if you played around it, you could easily have roughly 30%-50% dodge from meld going constantly. Which stacks with whatever dodge you have normally.

If you use meld as a "Oh No" button, and expect new meld to be the same "Oh no" button, then yea I guess it's a nerf. But if you take this new form of meld for what it is, and actually use it effectively it is so strong.

[mikarddo]

Just 1 thing, Meld is definitely different, but personally I think having between +10% - 60% dodge uncapped with a duration of 20s and a 15s cooldown, is a buff compared to 95% dodge for 15s with a 2 minute (105s not including 15s uptime) cooldown.

If the update goes live as is, if you played around it, you could easily have roughly 30%-50% dodge from meld going constantly. Which stacks with whatever dodge you have normally.

If you use meld as a "Oh No" button, and expect new meld to be the same "Oh no" button, then yea I guess it's a nerf. But if you take this new form of meld for what it is, and actually use it effectively it is so strong.

Aye, it definitely depends on the build and player. As a caster I can twist in Meld with zero effort and use it for the few "Oh no" moments. The new Meld would require much more effort and is not very accessible as a caster, in particular building the martial charges needed. Thus, for me, its a huge nerf.

[SpardaX]

TL;DR at the bottom of the post

As some have mentioned already the fact that we will lose alot of power the moment we hit 20 is a HUGE nerf across the board especially those of us that run reaper (my self included) I have multiple toons that have hit 20 on hardcore in current season 4 and in pasts seasons as well. Speaking from experience of starting fresh trying to do reapers in epic WITHOUT ED's capped is "do able" BUT here lies the problem we currently WAIT til we hit 30 usually so we have at least a few twists or are able to at least get into the tree's we need for our twists to make it semi easier.

Even on live where I have all the tree's capped the moment I hit 20 I gain a HUGE boost that is needed when running reapers as many of the quests between level 17-19 and the 1 HEROIC level 20 quest and the 2 level 20 raids that are also heroic are a PAIN without the power boost specifically the legacy quests from shavarath and dreaming dark. Which were designed to punish zergers as well as those who are unprepared or those who are not tanks with MASSIVE hp pools, even with the power creep we have now on first life toons.

and running newer content or even content that is part of the old epic content can be brutal depending on the quest even with maxed out destinies tree's and multi completionist toons if aren't careful or don't have the right gear. (yes I know we have players who have capped reaper I'm getting there) there are those who no reaper xp (either because they choose not to or they refuse to) and for those of us who have 20+ or even 100+ reaper points the moment we hit 20 we already have a semi easier time running reaper over elite cause of the reaper point bonuses we get for that.

But locking out our ED's to levels after we have spent dozens of hours (some people weeks/months) capping them so we can have access to the twists we actually USE vs the ones available is different from build to build - play style to play style - person to person and group to group. I'm mainly a solo player doing r3-4 in heroic's and in some epics (just started actually but I can do it consistently with less then 13 RP)

I don't use ED ablitys that effect others usually (sure the standard cacoon and maybe a damage boost aoe or defense boost/resist) but I mainly use solo boosting twists from 4 different ED's while I sit in my main ED. This pass will lock me out of 2 ablitys be it active or passive regardless(1 ablity before I hit 30).

while it may not seem like much its a HUGE nerf to be locked to level as well as we lose most of our bonuses we had in our ED tree's and the power we got from our twists to help us get to level 23 if people weren't running epic elites/epic reapers already when they hit 20.
---

TL;DR

• most twists are based on builds, play style, group set up, and/or usefulness
• level capping ED's is a bad idea leave it as it is
• limiting it to 3 tree twists is bad as some use up to 5 trees (4 for twisting abilities)
• current content was designed with the current power scaling in mind of the average player base this change could nerf the current standard build upto or beyond half of their current making reapers or even elites more key holed into more specialized power builds and tanks requiring specific gear more so or being out right removed from high level elite/reaper in favor of kiting builds.
• solo players who don't have time to wait on people joining or who just prefer soloing may have a harder time.

---
if i'm out of touch on something feel free to let me know, I'm a solo player now days and have made it to 5k 2x on hard core and 20 in every season. so critisim is welcome as i'm speaking from my point of view as a DPS/trapper and a hp tank

the moment I hit 20 I gain a HUGE boost

This ^
This right here is what they're trying to change. So....yea sorry.

Instead of it being a big jump at 20 and then a slow climb from 20-30, they wanted to make it a decent climb the whole way up.
This is going to sound like I'm being rude and I promise that's not my intention but

Reaper
Is meant to be
Hard.

If you are doing it solo (It's specifically not meant to be done solo thats the point)
and you think that after this change, you won't be strong enough to do solo the CHALLENGE DIFFICULTY THAT WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE DONE SOLO

Then yes. You got it. That's the whole point. You figured it out. Thumbs up.

[LavidDynch]

This ^
This right here is what they're trying to change. So....yea sorry.

Instead of it being a big jump at 20 and then a slow climb from 20-30, they wanted to make it a decent climb the whole way up.
This is going to sound like I'm being rude and I promise that's not my intention but

Reaper
Is meant to be
Hard.

If you are doing it solo (It's specifically not meant to be done solo thats the point)
and you think that after this change, you won't be strong enough to do solo the CHALLENGE DIFFICULTY THAT WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE DONE SOLO

Then yes. You got it. That's the whole point. You figured it out. Thumbs up.

Well, it´s still going to be super easy for casters and a nightmare for melee/ranged since melee is more dependant on a good destiny to keep up and... why do I bother...

[sweez]

Here's the thing, though... is it more or less complex than the *current* ED system? Imagine being a new player who just hit 20. "Ooh, this ED looks like a lot of fun! Wait, I can't claim it? Urgh, I have to claim something in this sphere two spheres away? I have to level it, then go over to Martial, level it, go over to another Martial, level it, then go get my first one in the right sphere, level *it*, and yay now I can finally do the ED I actually want to play in! Meanwhile, I've hit 26 and taken Toughness because I didn't bother maxing any of these EDs I didn't care about, ugh. And oh look, I'm approaching 28, and still haven't maxed one, let alone two... and what the heck are all these twists?"

Vs.

"Oh hey, this system looks very similar to the enhancement system I've been doing for the past 20 levels! Well, I figured out which three enhancement trees I wanted, now which three EDs do I want..."

I've recently returned to the game after a 8+ year break (last time I played epic levels & destinies were a pretty new thing so I barely remembered them) and with a bit of Wiki'ing and asking guildies some questions I was able to figure out the current ED system without any issues, and I also thought it was the most "modern" part of the whole game. Changing it because it's "too complicated" and in the process nerfing a lot of classes outright seems like an incredibly odd way to go about things. Unless I'm missing something - so feel free to correct me, I have been gone for a long time - on my FVS in EA for example I feel like I'll lose a lot of DPS with the removal of Empyrean Magic. My caster levels stay the same (if I understand correctly it was and would stay at +5), my + to DCs from cores/innates stays the same (if I understand correctly it was and would stay +3), I lose 2 Wisdom brackets from the right side of the tree and can instead take +1/2/3 to DCs from T5; so assuming I'll still be able to use something like [Spell School Specialist from Magister is right now] I'll gain 1 evocation DC and lose a significant chunk of my DPS (up to 20 universal spell power and 10% crit chance). That feels like a pretty bad trade that objectively makes my toon worse...?

Can you see how this makes very little sense when 1) I had absolutely no issue understanding and using the current destiny system even after being gone from the game for almost a decade and 2) I don't feel like my toon is so overpowered that it needs any sort of a nerf (and I don't really care if someone else's is, if they have been playing this whole time they deserve to be overpowered, it does not affect my game enjoyment in any way) and also 3) ETR already seems like a horrible grind with the loss of first time XP bonuses, and now it'll just be worse?

[MacDubh]

Unless the entire point to these changes is to try to sell more Epic Ottos boxes by nerfing epic leveling you are going about this the wrong way.

Twists are a FUN system because you get to cherry pick the stuff you really want from many different trees. Being able to easily swap to another ED or change twists for free is also FUN. Getting the full ED tree at level 20 is FUN and much needed as epic quests are much harder than heroic quest - there is still plenty to look forward to in epics, mostly feats and very much level 29 gear, so there is no need to spread the gains out.

Having access to just 3 trees is limited ALOT compared to taking twists from up to 5 trees apart from your main tree (thats up to 6 trees in use). Having so little power in low epics is NOT fun. Removing or severely nerfing or levelgating most of the currently strongest options is NOT fun (the list is really long, most good stuff seems to be getting the nerf hammer some way or another). Having more mediocre stuff is much LESS FUN than cherry picking a few strong things.

The main issues with the current system is
a) bad for new players
b) bad system for caster levels and stats
c) some EDs are too weak
d) Karma is annoying

a) Fixed easily by unlocking all destinies and filling them up from the start. Boom - new players get a full ED + a few points for twists right out of the box. Earning more points for twists and another twist slot is what you get for playing more. Instant success.
b) Remove the +stats from the trees. Add +1 stat choice at levels 21, 23, 25, 27 and 29. Remove +caster levels from EDs. Add +1 caster level (all kinds) at levels 22, 24, 26, 28 and 30. Slight nerf compared to now, yes, as these are level gate and you cannot twist +stats, but instead you free up points to spend on something else and add flexibility to use any destinity you like.
c) The long haul, no easy fix.
d) Just remove karma and make level 30 enough to ETR, instant fix.
Also, moving down the Destiny Feats to lower levels is a great idea.
Finally, add some strong gear at level 24.

Basically, scrap the entire new system you posted which looks much less fun to use, in particular in low epics which are already the least fun, and do this instead.

Agree with this.

In terms of Pros and Cons there are many Cons identified already. I'm sure many of these criticisms will be dismissed as 'wah-wah my favourite build is broken'. But overall the changes are vast, oppressive and depressing and NOT FUN. Those of of us with a gang of high levels alts groan at the thought of re-inventing them all, and sort of expect to find them much rubbisher than before.

The Pros of this are potentially better for new players and/or alts levelling into epics for first time, as more power is available earlier. But the sheer complexity of this is daunting even to experienced players. I'm sure knowledge and player guidance will improve with time but nobody will be able to help new players until it all gets worked out, which will take a while.

I'm not sure I understand the prime aims/goals of this rework:-
? better power for players coming into epics for first time
? avoid karma issues with building in off destinies
? preparation for extending level gap
? take down cheesey use of Dire Charge beyond design prupose
? take down cheesey use of Mass Frog beyond intended purpose
? have power distributed across EDs rather than make a few EDs the MUST haves (e.g. Magister for DC casters)
? cut stat power growth in Epic

... but I'm fairly sure this new system isn't the answer. I haven't read all the potss and responses as I just cannot be bothered after reading a few (main ones plus Shadowdancer/Leg Dread/Fury/Divine Crusader). Just no. No. No. No. No. (sobs)

EDs as they stand are a paid for addition, originally provided as part of an expansion, that are now being shredded. Not impressed.

I appreciate that a lot of design effort and thought has gone into this but think you have fallen prey to Groupthink mania by not dumping it before wasting time/effort.

Additionally, Lamannia testing it as incomplete with only some of the 12 is a pointless waste of time, imo. Nothing much of value will be gained. A few players may be enthused and go for it but I suspect the majority will be sighing and reaching for the whisky bottle ...

[Lencrennis]

This ^
This right here is what they're trying to change. So....yea sorry.

Instead of it being a big jump at 20 and then a slow climb from 20-30, they wanted to make it a decent climb the whole way up.
This is going to sound like I'm being rude and I promise that's not my intention but

Reaper
Is meant to be
Hard.

If you are doing it solo (It's specifically not meant to be done solo thats the point)
and you think that after this change, you won't be strong enough to do solo the CHALLENGE DIFFICULTY THAT WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE DONE SOLO

Then yes. You got it. That's the whole point. You figured it out. Thumbs up.

What, you think this is going to stop us?

[donblas]

I like everything I see so far.

Simplified and streamlined!

I look forward to seeing more

[Metellica]

I have read through all of the threads, did I miss if there were any changes to the Epic Past life stances?

[Zdevor]

Dear Developers,

here are some thoughts about the upcoming changes. In general the changes are exciting but there are some big mistake included in the new system

First of all if U want a similar system like the Enhancement trees. My question is: Do we have enough points to spend in the other two ED trees after I spent minimum 30 points to get a T5 skill? I dont want to have T5 in a tree and maximum T1-2 in the other trees. Either a bit more points, or less point requirements to get to higher tiers

2nd problem: Dire Charge
U wrote in the release notes, this system should give more variability. How the hell can I do that If Dire Charge will be a T5 skill in LD??? If I want Dire Charge, it will lock me into the LD tree which I dont want to. IMO this will narrow my opprtunities to vary my ED skills. If I take Dire Charge, I wont be able to get Improved Shadow form (or any other T5 skills), 'cause it is also a T5 skill.
Dire Charge is the only general melee CC ability Melees can get at lvl 29 atm, independent from any build. After this upgrade, U need to spend 30 ED points to get it. Much worse than a cost of a feat!!! If U force every Melee player to use Drifting Lotus so be it! But I dont want to use monk abilities if I am not a monk. That feels like ****!
I would recommend to leave Dire Charge as it is now or put it below T5 (maybe lower the ML requirement as U suggested in U51) and give another CC for Melees int he LD T5 tree. Something like the connection between Mighty Slam and Battlefist, the LD T5 CC could extend the stunning effect durtaion of Dire Charge.

3rd problem: Build up charges??? Really?
I like DDO cause it has its own playstyle. ATM Heroic levels and Epic levels dont differ much in playstyle. After update, If I need to hold my focus on the Epic Destiny charges, it will feel like I am in a totally different game. IMO this is not good. This change is too drastic.

[Zdevor]

That is a lot of new stuff to figure out for sure.

The initial impression is - you are removing or gating the good stuff I am currently using - so getting to pick more stuff from 3 trees will be much less fun or powerful than having 4 or 5 twists.

Basically, getting more mediocre abilities does not make up for losing a few strong ones.

Examples:
- Meld is nerfed very badly.
- Dire Charge is now a Tier 5 in LD making it somewhat exclusive and level 30 only (so no enjoying it from 29 to 30)
- Mass Frog is now a Tier 5 in PA, and is now level 30 only.
- Consume is gone (unsure if it is in a tree we cannot see yet)
- EiA is moved somewhere else that we cannot currently see
- Hunts End + Nerve Venom is now T5 making it level 30 only! (ranged builds will be very weak leveling)
- Adrenaline is no longer useable by ranged.

Also, leveling up in low epics will be much less fun than currently as so much power is lost. The Mantles look very weak in comparison.

Additionally, the whole "builder-spender" system with charges just look - annoying. I really suggest you drop that idea entirely as it just looks complex for no reason or gain and overall unfun.

Basically, all the fun/strong stuff in the trees we can see now is nerfed in some way or another. Will other fun and strong options be figured out? Maybe, time will tell.

I totally agree! 100%

[MistaMagic]

Well atm I am not sure what you want us to say as so far it looks bad and we have only seen 3/4 of the Apple. When we can see the remainder of the Apple we can either cut out the bad sections or just lob the whole rotten Apple into the trash can