First Look: Radiant Servant Adjustments

[JOTMON]

It should! And almost certainly will get that or something like it down the line when we have the time to dedicate to Divine Disciple work.

Why is Radiant servant not +4CHA.
There is no CHA capstone from any of the enhancement trees.

Radiant Servant being the only tree that utilizes CHA within the tree for Turns would be the obvious choice to capstone CHA, capstone WIS is already covered by the other two trees.

[Coffey]

Why is Radiant servant not +4CHA.
There is no CHA capstone from any of the enhancement trees.

Radiant Servant being the only tree that utilizes CHA within the tree for Turns would be the obvious choice to capstone CHA, capstone WIS is already covered by the other two trees.

We should have a choice of the two even though most people would want wisdom.

[Djjinni]

It should! And almost certainly will get that or something like it down the line when we have the time to dedicate to Divine Disciple work.

Sneak a quick change from +2 Wis to +4 for the capstone as a little fun bonus for the people who actually stuck with Cleric in its current state?

At the least they can enjoy that for the months until a more thorough DD workover happens

[Sunderae]

Tried to make this short and concise, things I think the team should look at again from someone who has mained cleric for 10+ years in DDO:

- CMW SLA is now duplicated in healing domain, may want to address that. Perhaps give healing domain a different SLA.

- Raise Dead SLA should clearly be switched for something else, for reasons I explained in post #66 in this thread. (Heal SLA just like FVS Beacon tree gets if you're going for parity here?) Resurrection SLA would be decent as well but appears team already decided no on that.

- Martyrdom should be replaced or reworked, it's quite silly IMO to spend points on an ability that is used on death only.

- I think radiant servant burst needs a slight healing buff considering it has no range. Even on my level 30 pure cleric with tons of healing amp, applying every metamagic possible and a really high positive spellpower it feels lacking.

- This is very minor but change Radiance's name. Radiance is already the term used in DDO for light damage/light spellpower via equipment. And this isn't a light attack at all so it's just confusing. I'm sure the team can come up with something better.

Overall though, mostly good stuff. Radiance looks enticing and I'm really happy you all reduced some of the AP costs. Thank you for the quick pass.

Also gave more extended feedback in a video on my youtube channel if anyone on the team wants to check that out as well.

I agree with Axel whole-heartedly.
Coming from the standpoint that Cleric/Radiant Servant was my very first character choice, and always calls to me, I do not play it and have not played it for quite some time.
It is my given luck that my favorite class/tree is possibly the worst implemented.
I see this pass (coincidentally, possibly ironically) as triage---TRIAGE on a Cleric

Raise Dead SLA is cringe to read.
Martyrdom should be deleted.
The internet should be scrubbed of all occurences of Martyrdom (and possibly a full Order 66 on those who know about the operation).

Jokes aside, I appreciate the pass. I'll be back to Radiant Servant because of it.

As Axel stated in his youtube video, I just hope the pass isn't an excuse to ignore the really bad parts of the tree in perpetuity.

[LightBear]

It should! And almost certainly will get that or something like it down the line when we have the time to dedicate to Divine Disciple work.

Why oh why isn't it as simple as changing a 2 to a 4?

Really, if this isn't a 5 minute fix.....

[Steelstar]

Hey! A quick update here, as you're likely to see this pass on Lamannia pretty soon. We've made a couple of tweaks and additional fixes to Radiant Servant:

• We've rearranged parts of the tree positionally just to make more thematic sense with the new Enhancements involved
• Divine Aid is now 3% Positive Spell Crit Damage and found in T1, T3, and T4
• The Raise Dead SLA has now been replaced with a Mass Resist Energy SLA (75 SP).
• When you have Mighty Turning, and attempt to Turn an Undead that is immune to Death effects, it will now attempt to Turn the creature.
• Martyrdom is now 1 rank (that does what the old Rank 3 did), and now reliably does what it says it does - heals nearby allies, damages nearby enemy Undead, and doesn't do anything to non-Undead enemies.

There were a lot of cool and interesting ideas in this thread, almost all of which are beyond the scope of what we can do in this small revamp. We may have a little time for further tweaks, but anything large will need to wait until we can spend more time on it in the future. Thanks for all your feedback so far, and we're interested to hear how it goes when you can test it on Lamannia!

I don't especially like rewriting the OP this far into a thread, as it causes the thread up until this point to lose some context, so I'm going to update the OP below and then link to it in the OP.

Updated Original Post:

Hey, everyone!

SteelStar here to give you a first look at a pair of smaller revamps currently slated for Update 50! These two passes are quick sets of changes we did around other upcoming features we're working on, so while they may not be complete overhauls, we hope they add some interesting build options, and wanted to bring them to you ahead of the Lamannia previews! (The first of the two revamps, Shadar-kai, can be found here!)

The second of these two previews is the Cleric Radiant Servant Enhancement Tree! The primary Healing tree for Clerics, it has a long history of bad bang-for-your-buck: Almost everything costs 2AP (meaning it costs close to 80AP just to max out the one tree), and some of the abilities are simply lackluster. Like we said above, these passes are fast, so while there are definitely other things we could improve in the future, we aimed for changes that were both fast and would help address the issues above. The usual warning applies: This is early preview content, and will likely change before it goes live!

• Pacifism is gone from Core 2, and has been replaced with a Cure Moderate Wounds SLA: 4SP, 6 second cooldown.
  
  • Pacifism is an odd ability. While there are certainly builds that like and use it, the ability to toggle it on and off made it not really fitting for the flavor of the ability, and the tradeoffs for the power didn't really... matter much. And its position in Core 2 meant you had to take it, even if you didn't want it. We went through a few iterations of trying to make something of it before scrapping it outright. Radiant Servants should have a lot of new points to put elsewhere after this pass, and the resulting builds should be stronger even without Pacifism.
  
  
• Radiant Servant (6th Core) now grants +4 Wisdom instead of the +2 it granted before.
  
  • Most of our Core Capstones now grant a total of +4 in ability scores, so this was just bringing it even.
  
  
• Many enhancements in this tree now cost 1AP per Rank that used to cost 2AP per rank:
  
  • Divine Cleansing now costs 1AP per Rank
  • Mighty Turning now costs 1AP per Rank
  • Bliss now costs 1AP per Rank
  • Divine Healing now costs 1AP per Rank
  • Intense Healing now costs 1AP per Rank
  • Endless Turning now costs 1AP per Rank
  • Incredible Healing now costs 1AP per Rank
  • Positive Energy Aura now costs 1AP per Rank
  • Cure Focus now costs 1AP per Rank
  • Reactive Heal now costs 1AP per Rank
  
  
• Extra Turning and Improved Turning are now combined in T2.
  
  • We did this in Knight of the Chalice a while back, glad to finally bring it here as well.
  
  
• New T1: Divine Aid: +3% Positive Spell Critical Damage. 1AP.
• New T3: Divine Aid: +3% Positive Spell Critical Damage. 1AP.
• New T4: Divine Aid: +3% Positive Spell Critical Damage. 1AP.
• When you have Mighty Turning, and attempt to Turn an Undead that is immune to Death effects, it will now attempt to Turn the creature.
  
  • ?Currently, when you have Mighty Turning and attempt to Turn an Undead that is immune to instant death effects, it does nothing. This was pointed out in this thread, and we were able to fix it.
  
  
• Martyrdom is now 1 Rank (1AP) that does what the old Rank 3 version did.
  
  • ?Martyrdom now also reliably heals nearby allies, damages nearby enemy Undead, and doesn't do anything to non-Undead enemies.
  
  
• Disconnected the prerequisite chain of Divine Healing, Martyrdom, and Reactive Heal.
• New T5: Mass Resist Energy SLA (75 SP).
  
  • This is the same as the version found in Epic Destinies, but significantly less expensive to cast and available in Heroics.
  
  
• New T5: Radiance: Activate: All allies in the dungeon (regardless of distance) gain the effects of the Greater Restoration spell, and purges Paralysis, Stun, and Knockdown/Trip. This can be used while Crowd Controlled. (Activation Cost: 30 Spell Points. Cooldown: 1 minute.)
  
  • We wanted to give this tree something shiny in Tier 5, and a Get-the-party-out-of-a-jam button seemed like just the thing.

That's the pass! Again, it won't solve all problems with Radiant Servant (or Clerics in general), but we hope that between the new skills and opening up a LOT of AP, Clerics will have some fun new options to play with. This is early, we're still tweaking numbers and playtesting internally, and you'll see it on Lamannia before it goes Live, but we wanted to show these off and see your thoughts! Let us know what you think!

[Targal]

I am almost fine for the current 'adjustment' except for Reactive Heal. Would you please just make the value greater? 250 is what a bard song heals in 2~3 ticks. I'd suggest 1,000 or more since it has a penalty of 3 min cooldown time which you need to make it worthier.
and maybe Martyrdom's healing as well.


----
EDIT:
To say why it should be greater, the game has a lot of damage around killing you in a shot that 'a big heal' is not a thing to keep you alive still unlike the old times when we had the new enhancement system and Radiant Servant. even healing 250 in heroics is not a thing now, then in epics?

[kpak01]

[QUOTE=Steelstar;6437949]

• When you have Mighty Turning, and attempt to Turn an Undead that is immune to Death effects, it will now attempt to Turn the creature.

[QUOTE]

This is literally years overdue, and isn't just a matter of Mighty Turning, either. If a Trning check result is at least double the monster's hit dice it's also supposed to destroy, but does nothing to deathblocked creatures. Please always apply the normal Turn Undead cowering effect when the Turn check is successful, regardless of whether it is Mighty Turning or just a high check that that might cause destruction to be attempted and blocked by deathblock. We should not be punished for having a better Turn, which is what the current system does where the destroy effect replaces instead of adding to the cowering effect.

[LittleLexi]

Not a fan of Mass Resist Energies at t5. Also dislike abilities that work throughout the dungeon, without needing LoS or targeting. Curious why you guys are pushing for such wide-ranging abilities. It feels overly forgiving, while discouraging skill, coordination, and teamwork.

Having said that — thank you for taking on board some our feedback and giving us context for this mini pass.

[Silverleafeon]

[*]New T5: Mass Resist Energy SLA (75 SP).

• This is the same as the version found in Epic Destinies, but significantly less expensive to cast and available in Heroics.

[*]New T5: Radiance: Activate: All allies in the dungeon (regardless of distance) gain the effects of the Greater Restoration spell, and purges Paralysis, Stun, and Knockdown/Trip. This can be used while Crowd Controlled. (Activation Cost: 30 Spell Points. Cooldown: 1 minute.)

• We wanted to give this tree something shiny in Tier 5, and a Get-the-party-out-of-a-jam button seemed like just the thing.

I love the new Mass Resist Energy.
It has been the role of healers to buff energy resist, which was a slow process, now becoming a 1 click wonder.
Goes along with Mass DW, Circle, and other mass buffs for a quick dungeon entry before the zergers fly away.
Would appreciate this only having one tier if possible for more cost reduction expense value.

Radiance is interesting and will be used after the Von 3 Beholder room and the end fight of ToEE as well as other places.


As brought up earlier, please make sure the Radiant Servant CMW SLA and the Healing Domain CMW SLA do not share cooldowns.


Thanks.

[TerraSkye]

really need to add something that will add a clerics epic levels to their turn undead. add more enhancements or feats that improve the turning an epic option perhaps. maybe give clerics some feats while leveling like fvs options for hp, sp, turning, dcs, energy resistance (radiant/necrotic?), favored weapons. something. having an option to choose a favored weapon would be great.
have an option that makes turns do radiant damage without having to be sun elf or part pally.
instead of raise dead as top tier put in options for a spell sla to choose. we have elemental domains but no spells to match that arent part of the domian. maybe put in some spell options as a tier 5 or include something nice for flavor like earthquake, sunburst, call lightning something spicy. perhaps put in a defensive option or a special summon pet to defend us like a suit of armor or holy weapon that flys around defending us.

but the main fix needed is the turning. we get no cha bonus past 22 cha that needs to be changed. our epic levels dont count towards turning level. the cr of high level mobs are just too high when our ability stops leveling with us.

[Silverleafeon]

but the main fix needed is the turning. we get no cha bonus past 22 cha that needs to be changed. our epic levels dont count towards turning level. the cr of high level mobs are just too high when our ability stops leveling with us.

+1

Perhaps Epic Destinies could address some of this.
Perhaps Cleric Class could address some of this.
I think the stun + damage changes proposed long ago to cleric could be revisited.

A lot of the problem is the same one facing Dispel Magic.
Any ability charting monster CR is d0o0omed due to the scaling of Hard = CRx2; Elite = CRx3; Reaper = ?

A solution might be to compare Turning VS Dungeon Level instead of CR rating?
Same with Dispel Magic VS Dungeon Level instead of CR rating?

The result would be so much more Pen and Paper style.

[rabidfox]

Played around for a little bit on it and I like it overall. The reduced costs are great, was able to rig up much more varied builds while keeping all the stuff I want out the RS tree. I still have to pop into some high skulls or raids to see how it completely feels but the extra AP flexibility feels amazing so far. Full testing will have to wait for the next lam test as the ED ravamp being tested means I have no real basis for trying high end stuff and my trees I would want to use to post-ED update aren't even in yet.

I love the new Mass Resist Energy.

It's +35 like the ED version so extra nice to have at level 12. =)

As brought up earlier, please make sure the Radiant Servant CMW SLA and the Healing Domain CMW SLA do not share cooldowns.

Just tested that and they're separate cooldowns.

[Cernunan]

I love the new Mass Resist Energy.
It has been the role of healers to buff energy resist, which was a slow process, now becoming a 1 click wonder.
Goes along with Mass DW, Circle, and other mass buffs for a quick dungeon entry before the zergers fly away.
Would appreciate this only having one tier if possible for more cost reduction expense value.

Radiance is interesting and will be used after the Von 3 Beholder room and the end fight of ToEE as well as other places.


As brought up earlier, please make sure the Radiant Servant CMW SLA and the Healing Domain CMW SLA do not share cooldowns.


Thanks.

Agreed

[LrdSlvrhnd]

• When you have Mighty Turning, and attempt to Turn an Undead that is immune to Death effects, it will now attempt to Turn the creature.
  
  • ?Currently, when you have Mighty Turning and attempt to Turn an Undead that is immune to instant death effects, it does nothing. This was pointed out in this thread, and we were able to fix it.

Please apply this fix to Hurl Through Hell as well. DB'd mobs just ignore it, they should at least get the paralyze on save effect.

[Haphazarduk]

I love the new Mass Resist Energy.
It has been the role of healers to buff energy resist, which was a slow process, now becoming a 1 click wonder.
Goes along with Mass DW, Circle, and other mass buffs for a quick dungeon entry before the zergers fly away.
Would appreciate this only having one tier if possible for more cost reduction expense value.

Radiance is interesting and will be used after the Von 3 Beholder room and the end fight of ToEE as well as other places.


As brought up earlier, please make sure the Radiant Servant CMW SLA and the Healing Domain CMW SLA do not share cooldowns.


Thanks.

Longer term, if turn undead can’t be sorted, I think reworked trees around buffing, melee and spell dps/dc would make sense. The meta game is much faster outside high reaper and even in high reaper fast ways of buffing the party would make a big QOL difference. Bards got an overhaul for this and although it didn’t sort everything it’s been a big improvement. If RS were the mass buff/heal/dispel experts that would be pretty cool.

Hap

[NabeGewell]

Hey! A quick update here, as you're likely to see this pass on Lamannia pretty soon. We've made a couple of tweaks and additional fixes to Radiant Servant:

• We've rearranged parts of the tree positionally just to make more thematic sense with the new Enhancements involved
• Divine Aid is now 3% Positive Spell Crit Damage and found in T1, T3, and T4
• The Raise Dead SLA has now been replaced with a Mass Resist Energy SLA (75 SP).
• When you have Mighty Turning, and attempt to Turn an Undead that is immune to Death effects, it will now attempt to Turn the creature.
• Martyrdom is now 1 rank (that does what the old Rank 3 did), and now reliably does what it says it does - heals nearby allies, damages nearby enemy Undead, and doesn't do anything to non-Undead enemies.

There were a lot of cool and interesting ideas in this thread, almost all of which are beyond the scope of what we can do in this small revamp. We may have a little time for further tweaks, but anything large will need to wait until we can spend more time on it in the future. Thanks for all your feedback so far, and we're interested to hear how it goes when you can test it on Lamannia!

I don't especially like rewriting the OP this far into a thread, as it causes the thread up until this point to lose some context, so I'm going to update the OP below and then link to it in the OP.

~

Thanks for considering and implementing some of the suggestions, a pleasant read this was.

[Lanadazia]

[*]The Raise Dead SLA has now been replaced with a Mass Resist Energy SLA (75 SP).[*]When you have Mighty Turning, and attempt to Turn an Undead that is immune to Death effects, it will now attempt to Turn the creature.

mass resist energy?? oh i LOVE that. its something i have been missing in DDO for years.
will it be like the warlock combined-all-resists-in-one-cast as AOE or will it be a pick-one-resist-AOE ?
(2nd would be cool, 1st would be hella awesome!!)

also nice to see turning getting some love. it always was a bit weird when a deathward icon popped up on a turn

[Lanadazia]

+1

Perhaps Epic Destinies could address some of this.
Perhaps Cleric Class could address some of this.
I think the stun + damage changes proposed long ago to cleric could be revisited.

A lot of the problem is the same one facing Dispel Magic.
Any ability charting monster CR is d0o0omed due to the scaling of Hard = CRx2; Elite = CRx3; Reaper = ?

A solution might be to compare Turning VS Dungeon Level instead of CR rating?
Same with Dispel Magic VS Dungeon Level instead of CR rating?

The result would be so much more Pen and Paper style.

i hate those mobs who cast dispel magic with their dying breath. its so stupidly overpowered that they strip you entirely.
maybe a maximum of effects they can strip with a single cast would help here too. like a max of 5 effects removed per cast or sth like that. (it would still be annoying and consume sp or expose a weakness)

[Enderoc]

the main reason CMW is a bad SLA is that you get that with healing domain... kind of defeats the purpose
However for multiclass it might work...if healing domain is not chosen.