First Look: Radiant Servant Adjustments

[Targal]

I know revamp is far away, but I hope my idea can help you when you revamp in the future--
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...69#post6435869
(My revamp idea post in Suggestion forum)


Also, please change Positive Healing Aura as a toggle - like this:

Now this is a toggle that automatically consumes one of your turn attempts to linger this effect. (the same mechanism of Primal Avatar's Spirit toggle)

[HuneyMunster]

Hey, everyone!

Cleric Radiant Servant Enhancement Tree! The primary Healing tree for Clerics, it has a long history of bad bang-for-your-buck: Almost everything costs 2AP (meaning it costs close to 80AP just to max out the one tree), and some of the abilities are simply lackluster. Like we said above, these passes are fast, so while there are definitely other things we could improve in the future, we aimed for changes that were both fast and would help address the issues above. The usual warning applies: This is early preview content, and will likely change before it goes live!

With the loss of 3 positive critical chance and 25 positive spell power from Pacifism could 5/10/15 positive power be added to Intense Healing and 1/2/3 or 2/4/6 positive critical chance to Incredible Healing? Even if this means making the 2 point per rank again.

Beacon of Hope gets 14 critical chance while Radiant Servant only gets 3 critical chance (down from 6). With Might's Reward I would think that Beacon of Hope would also get more positive spell power than Radiant Servant.

[Steelstar]

Hey! A lot of good feedback so far. I'm going to hit some specific points that have come up in a lot of posts rather than grab individual quotes for parts of this one.

Raise Dead SLA is underwhelming

I can see where people are coming from on this one. However, we don't want to replace this with a Resurrection or True Resurrection SLA, for the primary reason that we want people to have to pay the full SP cost for the benefits of those spells.

As there were a few allegations in here that the Favored Soul version of the Raise Dead SLA, we decided to check the data to see for sure, and approximately 50% of all people that take Tier 5 Beacon of Hope take the Raise Dead SLA. Which is about what we'd expected on our end; it's a useful SLA for those who want/need it, but people who don't need it spend their points elsewhere. For that reason, we're likely to keep the Raise Dead SLA where it is.

Divine Aid is listed as Crit Damage instead of Crit Chance, is that intended?

Yes, though we may bump the number up by another 1-2% on each of those enhancements.

Could we possibly transfer the Aura to another object or player?

Not easily, and not within the time we have for this pass. There's larger considerations about whether or not we'd actually want to go through with that, but it's not happening in this pass regardless of the answer to those considerations.

Divine Healing and Reactive Heal aren't great.

It's true, and if I can find time to shape them up in this pass I will, but I don't expect to at this time.

For the most part I like the direction of the changes.

Of concern for me is 'Mighty Turning'
One flaw this ability has is that if you have this enhancement and the undead is warded from Instant Death effects, it is immune to all aspects of the Turn Undead. However, if you remove this enhancement those same warded undead will cower if the TU is successful.

At this time, for epics it is best to unspec this enhancement if you want some use out of TU. I've been successful following this unspec in epics. Not from killing undead but using this ability for CC purposes to control the flow.

Thanks for the heads-up. I was able to fix this, and assuming it passes QA it should go out with this pass - After the change, if you have Mighty Turning and a monster doesn't die to the death portion, it should proceed to the regular-turn portion.

This is a very special ability. Can we make it clear curses and diseases?

No, sorry. We considered a lot of different possible things it could clear, and curses and diseases didn't make the cut at content's request.

Hey Steel, you forgot to talk about Martyrdom in the opening post

Whoops, I definitely did. Martyrdom is being reduced to 1 rank (which does what the current 3rd rank does), and it's been rebuilt to work as the text describes consistently.

The reduction in AP costs means I'm getting less spell power out of this tree

Yes, you absolutely are. Let's break that down a little.

In the Live version of the tree, if you somehow decide to buy as much Radiant Servant as possible, you spend 80AP and get 40 Universal SP and 90 Positive SP (115 if you're using Pacifism), effectively 130/155 Positive SP. Which is a ton. Other trees don't give anywhere near that much Spell Power. Granted, in reality you're probably not spending 80AP in this tree, but still.

In the new version of the tree, you spend 59 AP if you're buying absolutely everything and get 29 Universal and 69 Positive, effectively 98 Positive SP. However, you also have more points to spend in other places than before - You can pick up Universal Spell Power in Divine Disciple more easily than before, for example. It's not likely to get you back to 130/155, and as a balance note we're OK with that. As a Cleric, you have access to other avenues of Spell Power that didn't exist when the tree was originally made, such as the Healing Domain.

As a point of comparison, Favored Soul Beacon of Hope gets (40 + [5+STR/WIS/CHA mod]) Positive Spell Power out of their tree, assuming you're keeping the buff up constantly. They do come out higher if their relevant mod is higher than 53, but they also don't have access to Healing Domain.

In short, we are confident this change is going to be fine.

[Targal]

As there were a few allegations in here that the Favored Soul version of the Raise Dead SLA, we decided to check the data to see for sure, and approximately 50% of all people that take Tier 5 Beacon of Hope take the Raise Dead SLA.

Taking it doesn't mean you really use it. That's why people constantly talk it's useless, and I believe the number 50% you say is the people here.

[Targal]

Bliss: When you use a Turn Attempt for any reason, you gain 3/4/5 Temporary Hit Points for each Healing Core Ability you possess.

Also, please adjust these terrible numbers... and make it double at epics. Warlocks can make CHA temp hp always or CON temp hp periodically, but you only get 30 temp hp(at 6 cores.. It's capstone!) by one of your precious turn attempts.

Positive Energy Shield:
Channel Divinity: Your living ally receives temporary hit points equal to your Heal skill. While these hit points remain, your target receives +10% Sacred bonus to healing they receive from positive energy. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Also, this one is actually not useful. temp hp prevents your hp from lost, but what's the point of giving a healing bonus? and the temp hp value is almost a paper. I believe 'Raise Dead' that people are saying useless is more useful than this. Pacifism is an odd one, yes, but It's not odd as much as this one is.

[axel15810]

Hey! A lot of good feedback so far. I'm going to hit some specific points that have come up in a lot of posts rather than grab individual quotes for parts of this one.

I can see where people are coming from on this one. However, we don't want to replace this with a Resurrection or True Resurrection SLA, for the primary reason that we want people to have to pay the full SP cost for the benefits of those spells.

As there were a few allegations in here that the Favored Soul version of the Raise Dead SLA, we decided to check the data to see for sure, and approximately 50% of all people that take Tier 5 Beacon of Hope take the Raise Dead SLA. Which is about what we'd expected on our end; it's a useful SLA for those who want/need it, but people who don't need it spend their points elsewhere. For that reason, we're likely to keep the Raise Dead SLA where it is.

I haven't yet had time to post my full feedback (I will), but wanted to quickly chime in here.

Steelstar, I really disagree. The Raise Dead SLA should absolutely be swapped out for something else. Why not a Heal SLA like in Beacon?

The comparison you're making here is flawed because of the key difference between FVS and Cleric in that Cleric gets tons of spellslots and FVS doesn't. So it actually makes some sense for FVS to save them spellslots. But nobody is going to take this on their healing cleric. Clerics have no issue slotting all their 3 raises. And nobody uses raise dead over resurrection or true resurrection because of the extra HP those spell give on raise. This is super important in harder content and in raids where a raise dead with its low HP replenishment can easily get you killed again instantly. Plus resurrection scrolls exist, even if they can't be quickened, further negating any use a raise dead SLA might have. I wouldn't take a raise dead SLA even for only 1 AP because it has no meaningful use.

A Heal SLA should definitely go here instead. Beacon has it, and Heal SLA makes even more sense on Cleric since Clerics get less SP than FVS.

Please reconsider.

[Targal]

@Steelstar
If you don't want Heal SLA but you want to put something else, then I'd like to suggest Greater Restoration, Resist Energies(the warlock SLA, but less SP cost since It's T5), Protection from Elements(Mass), or something special ones like Remove Curse(Mass) or Stalwart Pact(Mass)
As a way to enhance Cleric's protective aspect rather than healing aspect.

[gravisrs]

Divine Healing and Reactive Heal aren't great.

It's true, and if I can find time to shape them up in this pass I will, but I don't expect to at this time.

At least make it scalable with positive spellpower (or twice that), those numbers on lvl 30 content makes everyone laughs and my cleric is ashamed of it

[GoldyGopher]

SPELL POWER LOSS COMMENTS

Yes, you absolutely are. Let's break that down a little.

In the Live version of the tree, if you somehow decide to buy as much Radiant Servant as possible, you spend 80AP and get 40 Universal SP and 90 Positive SP (115 if you're using Pacifism), effectively 130/155 Positive SP. Which is a ton. Other trees don't give anywhere near that much Spell Power. Granted, in reality you're probably not spending 80AP in this tree, but still.

In the new version of the tree, you spend 59 AP if you're buying absolutely everything and get 29 Universal and 69 Positive, effectively 98 Positive SP. However, you also have more points to spend in other places than before - You can pick up Universal Spell Power in Divine Disciple more easily than before, for example. It's not likely to get you back to 130/155, and as a balance note we're OK with that. As a Cleric, you have access to other avenues of Spell Power that didn't exist when the tree was originally made, such as the Healing Domain.

As a point of comparison, Favored Soul Beacon of Hope gets (40 + [5+STR/WIS/CHA mod]) Positive Spell Power out of their tree, assuming you're keeping the buff up constantly. They do come out higher if their relevant mod is higher than 53, but they also don't have access to Healing Domain.

In short, we are confident this change is going to be fine.

I feel your thinking is flawed.
On my healing focused cleric this change will result in a net loss of 41 Positive Spell Power, in the toughest content. -25 Pacifism and -8 Universal, -17 Positive Spell Power Healing Domain, with +9 Universal Gain from Divine Disciple.

Even though I will have 17 additional Action Points to spend, beyond the 10 points to get 9 additional Universal Spell Power and +1 Critical, where do I put the other 7 points. On a pure cleric - healer, I have never really needed the AP even though Radiant Servant is the most expensive in terms of AP. There is nothing else you need.

Playing a pure cleric you are relegated to spot healing, as the Favored Soul "Flame of the Favored" is so efficient and shall we say useful in the toughest content. For me this makes Mass Cure Moderate my bread and butter spell. The loss of 41 Positive Spell Power equates to loss of ~150 points of healing per target per cast; without taking into consideration critical hits and healing amplification on the target. That to me is a big number.

You have given me a new Cure Mass Moderate SLA which will now be slotted as my bread and butter spell and saving me a few Spell Points, the question becomes what becomes the secondary healing spell. Currently it is spot use of Mass Cure Light and Heal. I am fairly certain the loss of ~65 points per cast (before healing amplification on the target) is a deal breaker. The problem isn't the choice of spell but the additional spell points it is going to cost and the additional 1 second cooldown on the SLA and how that effects the spell rotation. In a perfect controlled environment where all my character does is heal (no damage, no curse removal, no....) I will lose 50 seconds worth of healing due to increased spell cost. That is theory crafting so it will take some play testing to see how it plays in real play.

[GoldyGopher]

NEW Raise Dead SLA Feedback

I can see where people are coming from on this one. However, we don't want to replace this with a Resurrection or True Resurrection SLA, for the primary reason that we want people to have to pay the full SP cost for the benefits of those spells.

As there were a few allegations in here that the Favored Soul version of the Raise Dead SLA, we decided to check the data to see for sure, and approximately 50% of all people that take Tier 5 Beacon of Hope take the Raise Dead SLA. Which is about what we'd expected on our end; it's a useful SLA for those who want/need it, but people who don't need it spend their points elsewhere. For that reason, we're likely to keep the Raise Dead SLA where it is.

Rather than Raise Dead, how about a Jibbers Like effect. That puts jibbers on Timer if needed.

[Kebtid]

To the 50% people that take raise dead sla, please do not take it, ap are the most important resource we have for building our character, and raise dead sla is the only thing you should not take from the amazing beacon tree.

[Impaqt]

Hey! A lot of good feedback so far. I'm going to hit some specific points that have come up in a lot of posts rather than grab individual quotes for parts of this one.

I can see where people are coming from on this one. However, we don't want to replace this with a Resurrection or True Resurrection SLA, for the primary reason that we want people to have to pay the full SP cost for the benefits of those spells.

You do realize Resurrection scrolls are readily available? I dont see an issue with resurrection as an SLA. True.. I understand.

As there were a few allegations in here that the Favored Soul version of the Raise Dead SLA, we decided to check the data to see for sure, and approximately 50% of all people that take Tier 5 Beacon of Hope take the Raise Dead SLA. Which is about what we'd expected on our end; it's a useful SLA for those who want/need it, but people who don't need it spend their points elsewhere. For that reason, we're likely to keep the Raise Dead SLA where it is.

THis should be bumped up to Resurrection as well.

[Bacon_Burger]

T5 Radiance;

I asked if this was in raids as well.

WHY?

I can't see how you're going to allow this to function as planned, "in every part of the dungeon". It doesn't make any sense at all with in-place game mechanics of LoS for an example.

So you're telling me, when I go through a one-way portal (rift between worlds eg) that a cleric back in any area of first part of that dungeon is going to cast ANYTHING that can target me? Or someone in lower level of Tempest Spine can get help from someone at end fight portal? or how about Coal-chamber? This just doesn't make reasonable sense.

As much as I like the concept, the way you have it planned to work is *less than a desirable method for implementing than makes sense* (in other words..... nonsense)

SS, scale this back a little please.

[droid327]

I can see where people are coming from on this one. However, we don't want to replace this with a Resurrection or True Resurrection SLA, for the primary reason that we want people to have to pay the full SP cost for the benefits of those spells.

I mean the only meta that matters for this spell is Quicken, so you're talking 15 SP (Raise Dead SLA) vs 50 (Resurrection + Quicken). Is 35 SP really that much of a balance issue?

Its only going to matter in combat, anyway. Outside of combat you're going to scroll rez regardless. Inside of combat, you're going to want to spend the extra SP to Resurrect or True Resurrect, so they dont just immediately die again. I just dont see where RD SLA has much of an actual role, and I wonder how often that 50% of BoH players actually use it...

[Targal]

I mean the only meta that matters for this spell is Quicken, so you're talking 15 SP (Raise Dead SLA) vs 50 (Resurrection + Quicken). Is 35 SP really that much of a balance issue?

Its only going to matter in combat, anyway. Outside of combat you're going to scroll rez regardless. Inside of combat, you're going to want to spend the extra SP to Resurrect or True Resurrect, so they dont just immediately die again. I just dont see where RD SLA has much of an actual role, and I wonder how often that 50% of BoH players actually use it...

To put more, by 10%~20% SP reduction given basically, 50 SP will be 40~45 SP eventually.

[Steelstar]

You do realize Resurrection scrolls are readily available?

Yes. Obviously. Scrolling isn't costless either, you're expending skill points, obtaining items, and shuffling around held gear as an alternate means of doing this that doesn't require the normal cost of the spell, and can't be Quickened; the same reasons I describe above apply here, it's just a different cost we don't want to grant an SLA to allow you to bypass in this case.

@Steelstar
If you don't want Heal SLA but you want to put something else, then I'd like to suggest Greater Restoration, Resist Energies(the warlock SLA, but less SP cost since It's T5), Protection from Elements(Mass), or something special ones like Remove Curse(Mass) or Stalwart Pact(Mass)
As a way to enhance Cleric's protective aspect rather than healing aspect.

Resist Energies and Protection from Elements Mass are interesting potential replacements that could fit within our remaining time budget.

[rabidfox]

As there were a few allegations in here that the Favored Soul version of the Raise Dead SLA, we decided to check the data to see for sure, and approximately 50% of all people that take Tier 5 Beacon of Hope take the Raise Dead SLA. Which is about what we'd expected on our end; it's a useful SLA for those who want/need it, but people who don't need it spend their points elsewhere. For that reason, we're likely to keep the Raise Dead SLA where it is.

It's most useful between levels 12 and 18 before I grab my true res spell on my FvS (but I take it because of a lack of spells slots not because of cost savings so for clerics with all their slots it's hard to see a big need for it). Avoiding weapon swap/slow scroll cast time is worth grabbing that SLA for those level brackets alone.

I mean the only meta that matters for this spell is Quicken, so you're talking 15 SP (Raise Dead SLA) vs 50 (Resurrection + Quicken). Is 35 SP really that much of a balance issue?

Usually enlarge too. It's annoying to be in a raid doing an in-combat res and someone being just out of range.

[Pandjed]

Hey Steelstar, I really appretiate how you interact with us in this thread. Despite some backlash here and there, I feel like we (as the users) are communicating with you (the devs).


Now onto some comments...

I feel your thinking is flawed.
On my healing focused cleric this change will result in a net loss of 41 Positive Spell Power, in the toughest content. -25 Pacifism and -8 Universal, -17 Positive Spell Power Healing Domain, with +9 Universal Gain from Divine Disciple. [...]

I'm usually way overhealing my patients with my first-lifer pure-bread healer (unless those 5k and more hp candidates in high reaper), so my question would be, if your gear and filigrees are right that this matters so much.

This may also be a point to rethink the healing strategy for a cleric a bit, as now several APs have been opened up and can be put into other trees. I mean, if you have Feydark Illusionist, you can get with these 17 points to +15 universal and force from the cores, another wisdom (spellpoints and off-instakills), a nice CC for raids, and such.
Or maybe become more melee focused, as aura works best in melee anyway, can get some universal spellpower there as well, and such.

17 AP to spend otherwise can be a huge deal and provoke some new build ideas.

To the 50% people that take raise dead sla, please do not take it, ap are the most important resource we have for building our character, and raise dead sla is the only thing you should not take from the amazing beacon tree.

Please don't tell me what to do or not to do with my character.

T5 Radiance;

I asked if this was in raids as well.

WHY?

I can't see how you're going to allow this to function as planned, "in every part of the dungeon". It doesn't make any sense at all with in-place game mechanics of LoS for an example.

So you're telling me, when I go through a one-way portal (rift between worlds eg) that a cleric back in any area of first part of that dungeon is going to cast ANYTHING that can target me? Or someone in lower level of Tempest Spine can get help from someone at end fight portal? or how about Coal-chamber? This just doesn't make reasonable sense.

As much as I like the concept, the way you have it planned to work is *less than a desirable method for implementing than makes sense* (in other words..... nonsense)

Well, my gods seem to be cooler than yours and don't mind giving out some nice healing miracles to those who fight alongside me, as long as they're in the same dungeon.

[Aelonwy]

Yes. Obviously. Scrolling isn't costless either, you're expending skill points, obtaining items, and shuffling around held gear as an alternate means of doing this that doesn't require the normal cost of the spell, and can't be Quickened; the same reasons I describe above apply here, it's just a different cost we don't want to grant an SLA to allow you to bypass in this case.


Resist Energies and Protection from Elements Mass are interesting potential replacements that could fit within our remaining time budget.

I've never played ES Warlock for any length of time does that Resist Energy SLA give all the elements at once similar to Divine Energy Resistance but single target? If so, that is something my cleric would love. I ALWAYS twist Divine Energy Resistance in epics the QoL is so wonderful. Personally, I would much prefer that over Raise Dead SLA.

[Khalibano]

I also think tier 5 Raise Dead is not the best option for a cleric, consideting spell book size

Here are some suggestions:
- Death pact SLA that can target another player
- Turn undead now deals xd6 light damage to your domain's enemies (e.g. Air = elementals)
- Heal SLA
- Clickie, like Shining through, based on WIS, long cooldown, grants temp HP to everyone no matter where in dungeon?
- Mass Divine Healing, scales with spell power?
- Mass Unyielding Sovereignty, 2 uses per rest?
- Wellspring of Health: target self, duration 30 secs. Activate to gain +50 Positive spellpower and +10% positive spell critical chance. Cooldown 3 minutes?
- Empower Heal has double effect on all spells it applies to?

Hope these are useful, and viable.