First Look: Shadar-Kai Adjustments

[IBCrabin]

Given how much uproar there was from sorcs for moving Meteor Swarm from 6 to 9 seconds CD, it seems less likely that "everyone" will build around an 18 second CD attack that also has a long animation time.

30 second cooldown didn't stop people building around EK eldritch tempest, bugged or not - and this require people having at least 5 wizard level and lock them into a T5 tree. This spin with multiplier is a racial tree where people can LR out the rogue class with no limitation on what combination of class people can use with light weapons.

Where did you quote "everyone" from? The point is, when there is a particular skill that has multiply damage, there is a tendency to restrict end game build further for min max purpose.

How do you know what the animation look like when they haven't release the lam preview for people to see?

Dev could improve the limited end game build by moving skill with multiplier to T5 and or move some of the core abilities higher core class level. A bit of consistency between class. What is the reason a ranger multiplier a level 12 core, while a fighter multiplier a level 6?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Given how much uproar there was from sorcs for moving Meteor Swarm from 6 to 9 seconds CD, it seems less likely that "everyone" will build around an 18 second CD attack that also has a long animation time.

it went from 3.5 seconds to 9 seconds
it annoyed sorcs because it interfered with spell rotation, since most other sorc spells are 3 second cooldown

[Steelstar]

Hey! Wanted to pop in for a quick update, as you're likely to see these changes on Lamannia soon.

Unlike Radiant Servant, we didn't end up making any tweaks to what we posted in the original post of this thread. This is in part because we had a lot of other things to get done for Lamannia - like we said in the OP, this pass' scope is small - and in part because the team wants to see how the changes as written hold up before deciding on any further changes.

There were a lot of cool and interesting ideas in this thread, many of which are beyond the scope of what we can do in this small revamp. We may have a little time for further tweaks depending on what we find on Lamannia, but anything large will need to wait until we can spend more time on it in the future. Thanks for all your feedback so far, and we're interested to hear how it goes when you can test it on Lamannia!

[Aelonwy]

we didn't end up making any tweaks to what we posted in the original post of this thread.

Disappointing but not unexpected.

However, I appreciate that you are going to the effort to update Shadar-kai at all.

[Luthor_Darkhammer]

I'm just ecstatic to see some Shadar-Kai love finally

[Evean]

Hey! Wanted to pop in for a quick update, as you're likely to see these changes on Lamannia soon.

Unlike Radiant Servant, we didn't end up making any tweaks to what we posted in the original post of this thread. This is in part because we had a lot of other things to get done for Lamannia - like we said in the OP, this pass' scope is small - and in part because the team wants to see how the changes as written hold up before deciding on any further changes.

There were a lot of cool and interesting ideas in this thread, many of which are beyond the scope of what we can do in this small revamp. We may have a little time for further tweaks depending on what we find on Lamannia, but anything large will need to wait until we can spend more time on it in the future. Thanks for all your feedback so far, and we're interested to hear how it goes when you can test it on Lamannia!

This sounds like someone making an effort to move forward slowly and carefully, in an effort to control quality. Promising, and laudable. Don’t forget to implement some sort of “second look” and/or “last look” procedure, where a fresh pair of eyes (someone who didn’t work on the project) goes through a checklist and reviews what’s about to be published. Developing that checklist is a difficult and important part of this process (spell check, icons match, mouseover text matches other text, male animation matches female animation, &c…). Start small, building this list will take time. Just keep a sticky on your desktop and jot down items as they occur to you. In time, the list will prepare itself.

*fingers crossed*

[Haphazarduk]

it went from 3.5 seconds to 9 seconds
it annoyed sorcs because it interfered with spell rotation, since most other sorc spells are 3 second cooldown

I can understand being briefly annoyed at the effect balance changes have on your builds but in almost all cases these balance changes are about making the game better for all and its a game about complex builds, balance and flavour so it comes with the territory. You have to see these changes in the context they were made and move on.

I like the Shadar-Kai adjustments and they do feel more radical than just the point cost changes of the RS pass so interested to see how it plays.

Hap

[draven1]

Hey! Wanted to pop in for a quick update, as you're likely to see these changes on Lamannia soon.

Unlike Radiant Servant, we didn't end up making any tweaks to what we posted in the original post of this thread. This is in part because we had a lot of other things to get done for Lamannia - like we said in the OP, this pass' scope is small - and in part because the team wants to see how the changes as written hold up before deciding on any further changes.

There were a lot of cool and interesting ideas in this thread, many of which are beyond the scope of what we can do in this small revamp. We may have a little time for further tweaks depending on what we find on Lamannia, but anything large will need to wait until we can spend more time on it in the future. Thanks for all your feedback so far, and we're interested to hear how it goes when you can test it on Lamannia!

Very disappointed, it may be the time to change my forum portrait to other one, and never come back to shadar-kai. And chasing meta like everyone else.

You've proved roguish, sneaky things in DDO are Red-Haired Stepchild AGAIN.

[shawnvw]

Haven't read all the posts, but for Chain attack, how about:

...a light weapon in your main hand, or a melee weapon with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks.

Derived from "Dagger in the Back" and "Stick Fighting", this lets characters with Weapon Finesse or Stick Fighting use rapiers and quarterstaves.

[Snormal]

Haven't read all the posts, but for Chain attack, how about:

...a light weapon in your main hand, or a melee weapon with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks.

Derived from "Dagger in the Back" and "Stick Fighting", this lets characters with Weapon Finesse or Stick Fighting use rapiers and quarterstaves.

Fighter/Monk can get dex to hit/damage with any melee weapon (through Kensei T5 and Ninja cores 1&2) so that is probably a bad thing to tie it to

[K_9]

Not really a fan on the proposed spiked chain changes. I'm fine they are improving the damage a little, but what about people who play Shadar-Kai with 2 handed weapons? Ie staff (that rogues actually have a tree for) and builds who splash rogue / Shadar-Kai with something else like Fighter, Barbarian?

Or these changes will do is basically tell people if you play Shadar-Kai then you will be an assasin only (as have to use finese weapons so not even a heavier 1 handed weapon)

[Artos_Fabril]

Or these changes will do is basically tell people if you play Shadar-Kai then you will be an assasin only (as have to use finese weapons so not even a heavier 1 handed weapon)

Seems to me the meta build will be SDK Swashbuckler, not assassin, though we'll have to see what goes live.

[K_9]

Seems to me the meta build will be SDK Swashbuckler, not assassin, though we'll have to see what goes live.

That's actually a fair shout and one I didn't initially think off. I would still prefer it myself if we had more weapon style options for chain attack.

[MacDubh]

That's actually a fair shout and one I didn't initially think off. I would still prefer it myself if we had more weapon style options for chain attack.

The problem is probably one of balance.
If, as opposed to being balanced for light weapons, it was balanced for TH weapons, then it would probably be useless for light weapons.
So more weapon style choices means a different balance argument.
As assassins are (generally) light weapon users, and it is an iconic SDK assassin feature, the focus on light weapons makes sense.
Ofc they may not have considered the swash add ins yet. If it breaks balance some exclusivity may be added.

And it is surely fine if every playstyle does not have access to every feature, for variety's sake. A staff wielding monk/fighter/acrobat is a very different beast to an iconic assassin.

[Smokewolf]

Q1: Would a throwing dagger be considered valid for a chain attack? (Would give ranged throwers a CQ melee option)

Q2: Is assassination possible via a chain attack?

[Artos_Fabril]

Q1: Would a throwing dagger be considered valid for a chain attack? (Would give ranged throwers a CQ melee option)

Q2: Is assassination be possible via a chain attack?

1) Probably not, unless it's a weirdly derived property (like ranger dex-to-hit and damage depending on an entry in the "offhand damage modifier" field) instead of a simple item property flag.
2) Like use it to perform the assassination special ability? There is no mechanic in the game to use a skill to perform another skill. You also won't be able to use it to apply poisons, unless they add that as an additional separate ability.

[Smokewolf]

1) Probably not, unless it's a weirdly derived property (like ranger dex-to-hit and damage depending on an entry in the "offhand damage modifier" field) instead of a simple item property flag.
2) Like use it to perform the assassination special ability? There is no mechanic in the game to use a skill to perform another skill. You also won't be able to use it to apply poisons, unless they add that as an additional separate ability.

Would be a huge missed opportunity if a thrower build couldn’t take advantage of the SK chain for close in combat. Weapon types of Dagger and Throwing-Dagger are basically using the same weapon. Never understood why DDO had to model the same weapon twice for both melee and throwing.

The “Offhand” damage you mentioned sounds pretty flaky considering that it’s already using a light weapon. Especially if the weapon abilities don’t fully transfer over to chain-attack. Furthermore, the weapon restrictions will likely force players into a fixed set of cookie-cutter builds based off of Rogue and Bard. Pretty much sounds like the SK revamp could fall short of people’s expectations becoming just another a novelty race.

Besides, even the Bard build wouldn’t really be worth it as a Respec would be required to remove the Rogue level. Which IMO is the biggest single design / functional issue with the Iconic-Races, the “fixed” starting class. Which is such a PiTa to deal with just so the DDO store can sell Hearts.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

I've been a tad absent from this game for a while, but these improvements are phenomenal

I only have one suggestion!

Add dexterity to hit and damage with light weapons to their racial tree, I know that request seems odd, but it can be implemented as a means to encourage the purchase of lesser hearts of wood to use the Shadar-Kai iconic for more non-rogue builds!

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Is there any chance you can add a new hairstyle to the shadar-kai?

"Unruly Long Hair" would be nice, and it does fit in with their theme a bit, in fact you can find depictions of shadar-kai with long hair styles similar to the human long hair styles in this game.

[Artos_Fabril]

The “Offhand” damage you mentioned sounds pretty flaky considering that it’s already using a light weapon. Especially if the weapon abilities don’t fully transfer over to chain-attack. Furthermore, the weapon restrictions will likely force players into a fixed set of cookie-cutter builds based off of Rogue and Bard. Pretty much sounds like the SK revamp could fall short of people’s expectations becoming just another a novelty race.

It is pretty flaky, but it comes directly from the person who should know. For clarity, I don't think it's that specific property that's being checked, but it's clear that the DB does not just contain attribute tags, it infers them from 'hooks' in the code. Probably the same reason for that non-physical weapons like Celestia broke when DR bypasses (like Paladin weapons of good) were applied to them

It was checking Combat_TwoWeaponOffHandBonus This is a property set on items that can be dual-wielded to determine the bonus they give in the offhand. Items that are two-handed do not have this, because they can't go in the offhand. Since the sickle was set to ignore the offhand, it didn't have this property set, so I had to give it an offhand bonus as if it were actually one-handed but keep the irregular precluded slot (Weapon2) the same so it still only fits in the mainhand.

That at least makes a modicum of sense. Does the tempest dex to-hit and damage enhancement also check that field to make sure it only applies to dual-wieldable weapons?

Also, while you're looking at these, is it possible to fix the offhand version accepting sentience? I don't know why anyone would do that, but if they did it would presumably become unequipable, having both 'no main hand use' and 'no offhand use' properties.

As a matter of fact, it does, so that did also get fixed. And that's a good catch on the sentience flag, also fixed.