First Look: Shadar-Kai Adjustments

[Artos_Fabril]

But that was kind of my point or missing the point... Steelstar mentioned Scourge, Scourge is an Iconic Ranger, Ranger has access to three trees one is ranged exclusively, one is meant for melee exclusively and one supports both. So Scourge can take advantage of the melee tree and still get plenty of use from Deepwood Stalker. Shadar Kai is an Iconic Rogue, Rogue has access to three trees one being melee dagger/kukris, one is melee Quarterstaff, one is ranged Great Crossbow. Rogue is already inherently more limited because its trees are very weapon centric, not just playstyle limited but specific weapon limitations. Ranger has more choice for melee and only becomes somewhat limited by Scourge's blunt weapon requirement. Shadar Kai is limiting rogue to one melee tree and maybe a few support enhancements from its other trees like Fast Movement, Mechanics, Awareness etc. Its a bit too restrictive for my tastes and if I didn't already own it would not entice me too purchase it now. There isn't enough character creation/variety value for me. But Steelstar has already said they thought about it and are comfortable with their plan. So *shrug*.

I would say that (revised) Shadar Kai does offer some interesting build opportunities, and much like PDK and Bladeforged, it's iconic class isn't the one it's best suited to. The most interesting options are for weird class splits or require +1 hearts.

[kamimitsu]

Each attack with the Chain has a chance to doublestrike. I don't believe it can offhand strike.

Interaction with Animal forms is TBD. I should really check how it currently works, my guess is "badly". Off the top of my head, we may require you to not be in Animal Form in the new version, not sure yet.

Ghastly is still a work in progress. We don't want it to be so good at a unique channel of avoidance defense that it becomes good for tanking, but want it to be good enough to be useful.

To get it out of the way early, we can't apply the Assassin's Mark debuff to red- and purple-names. It does bad things to encounters and Content has said "No" in no uncertain terms.

In another thread about Thief Acrobat and race choices, SDK came up and was dismissed quickly as using q-staff rendered the proposed chain changes almost moot. I'd like to add support to Thief Acrobats being be able to treat Q-staffs as light weapons (perhaps only if they have taken the Dex to Hit option) or some other workaround to allow stick build SDK chainers.

[LightBear]

Looks impressive.

Am looking forward to building some Shadar-Kai Aura-lock and/or a Bard SwashBuckler and/or Feydark Illusionist.

Which brings me to the questions:
- Will the chain get the material properties of the weapon used in main hand?
Like Echo of the Sunsword's light effect, Feydark's Force or even just plain simple cold iron?
- Will the effects on the weapon carry over to the chain?
Like Echo of the Sunsword's Brazen Brilliance or SwashBuckler Resonant Arms' Sonic Damage?

[Aelonwy]

I would say that (revised) Shadar Kai does offer some interesting build opportunities, and much like PDK and Bladeforged, it's iconic class isn't the one it's best suited to. The most interesting options are for weird class splits or require +1 hearts.

Bolded for emphasis. I really loathe that about iconics. I get it, +1 hearts make them $$. I understand. And I don't mind an iconic having good synergy with something else that takes a lot of effort and possibly already having tomes or certain past lives however IMHO there is no excuse for an iconic to have POOR synergy with two-thirds of its native class trees. That suggests intention. Now, to be fair, perhaps this is more an issue with rogue than it would be for other iconics/classes because rogue trees as previously mentioned are already incredibly specific not just to a particular playstyle but to particular weapons within those broader categories.

In another thread about Thief Acrobat and race choices, SDK came up and was dismissed quickly as using q-staff rendered the proposed chain changes almost moot. I'd like to add support to Thief Acrobats being be able to treat Q-staffs as light weapons (perhaps only if they have taken the Dex to Hit option) or some other workaround to allow stick build SDK chainers.

Perhaps you didn't notice but that is my thread you're mentioning. Hmm I like the direction you are thinking in... but I'm not sure how they would/could do it. The way it is now most weapons will go off whatever options you have (by feat/enhancement/or innate) and then by whatever is highest. So for example if you are using a quarterstaff, have the first core of Thief Acrobat, it will show Str/Dex to hit and Str to dmg until you get the next core Stick Fighting then it will show Str/Dex to hit and Str/Dex to damage but only give you whichever is higher. The Dex option doesn't replace the str, it only becomes an available option. It would be unusual, an exception even, but they could require a Tier5 like Spinning Staff Wall or the level 12 core from TA making it something you have to be very invested in TA to acquire as a Shadar-kai. But that wouldn't be a hardship to an actual TA player and certainly not one starting at 15 as iconic is intended. I suppose it could be problematic for someone using Sdk and TA on HC but on HC you have to plan carefully anyway. However requiring that much investment in TA would discourage some min-maxing looking for some unintended multi-class split that perhaps didn't even include rogue, let alone 12 rogue.

[IBCrabin]

Bolded for emphasis. I really loathe that about iconics. I get it, +1 hearts make them $$. I understand. And I don't mind an iconic having good synergy with something else that takes a lot of effort and possibly already having tomes or certain past lives however IMHO there is no excuse for an iconic to have POOR synergy with two-thirds of its native class trees. That suggests intention. Now, to be fair, perhaps this is more an issue with rogue than it would be for other iconics/classes because rogue trees as previously mentioned are already incredibly specific not just to a particular playstyle but to particular weapons within those broader categories.



Perhaps you didn't notice but that is my thread you're mentioning. Hmm I like the direction you are thinking in... but I'm not sure how they would/could do it. The way it is now most weapons will go off whatever options you have (by feat/enhancement/or innate) and then by whatever is highest. So for example if you are using a quarterstaff, have the first core of Thief Acrobat, it will show Str/Dex to hit and Str to dmg until you get the next core Stick Fighting then it will show Str/Dex to hit and Str/Dex to damage but only give you whichever is higher. The Dex option doesn't replace the str, it only becomes an available option. It would be unusual, an exception even, but they could require a Tier5 like Spinning Staff Wall or the level 12 core from TA making it something you have to be very invested in TA to acquire as a Shadar-kai. But that wouldn't be a hardship to an actual TA player and certainly not one starting at 15 as iconic is intended. I suppose it could be problematic for someone using Sdk and TA on HC but on HC you have to plan carefully anyway. However requiring that much investment in TA would discourage some min-maxing looking for some unintended multi-class split that perhaps didn't even include rogue, let alone 12 rogue.

You are going to end up with some weird build using swf swashbuckler. The issue with the current game design is a lot of the changes are very specific to a playstyle which causes 1 dimension class split to min max for end game.

[J1NG]

Looks impressive.

Am looking forward to building some Shadar-Kai Aura-lock and/or a Bard SwashBuckler and/or Feydark Illusionist.

Which brings me to the questions:
- Will the chain get the material properties of the weapon used in main hand?
Like Echo of the Sunsword's light effect, Feydark's Force or even just plain simple cold iron?
- Will the effects on the weapon carry over to the chain?
Like Echo of the Sunsword's Brazen Brilliance or SwashBuckler Resonant Arms' Sonic Damage?

If I were to hazard a guess, I would imagine it's basically treated as a (less than) 360 Degree long range Cleave attack, and thus that procs normal attacks. So actually, instead of a chain that takes properties from your weapon, you add the Chain effects to it (long range 360 cleave) instead. So it should:

1. Have Material Properties of the main hand
2. Have chance to proc Echo of Sunsword light damage.
3. Have Echo of the Sunsword Brazen Brilliance chance too.
4. Have any Augment properties too, like Neg Drain on 20 with the Endless Night Ruby

But that's just me looking at it. Could still be done differently.

J1NG

[kpak01]

Because, the maxed-out-everything Assassin doesn't have many other option to a sub-optimal 1st-lifer, unlike casters.

Yeah they do. Fine, I'll work it out. OK, a maxed-out Assassin would be 11 points ahead of my 1st-lifer, for an Assassinate of 135. Since they don't suffer from mobs having an extra +6 save, that's comparable to a 141 on a caster.

And, oh! your maxed-out caster had a 142?!? Wow, 142 is "20+" points higher than an effective 141? Keeps spinning.

There are NO...

Congratulations on being able to make a list of things that raise spell DCs but not Assassinate DCs. You could also make the similar list of things that raise Assassinate but not spells, but I don't expect you're going to, because that would undermine the continued flailing of the blatantly false "20+" DC claim.

Because most mob's saves are balanced around caster's DC, assassin's DC is almost useless on endgame now. Even for maxed-everything-out assassin. The balance for 'spell based DC vs non-spell based DC' is completely broken for this game.

You could probably make some reasonable argument if you tried, about how much Assassin have to give up to get their DCs, and maybe still being slightly behind casters. You could suggest some modest improvements to close the slight gap or make it less of a trade-off. I'm not sure why you haven't tried to make such valid points or offer such useful suggestions, and instead just continue to throw out the blatant falsehoods like "almost useless" and "completely broken" and "20+" DC gap.

And I'm not sure why I'm still trying to have a reasonable, fact-based conversation with someone who is repeatedly lying about the facts.

[LittleLexi]

In another thread about Thief Acrobat and race choices, SDK came up and was dismissed quickly as using q-staff rendered the proposed chain changes almost moot. I'd like to add support to Thief Acrobats being be able to treat Q-staffs as light weapons (perhaps only if they have taken the Dex to Hit option) or some other workaround to allow stick build SDK chainers.

I've clamored for this for the longest time to no avail. Acrobats and Swashbuckling should go hand in hand. I still can't understand why they haven't made this possible.

[Marshal_Lannes]

In terms of envisioning how a staff would function in a chain attack, there is already ample evidence of this in Dungeons and Dragons lore. We have several examples of this in D&D Oriental Adventures. There is the staff sling, the three-piece-rod, and the Chigiriki. The Chigiriki is a Japanese weapon that is a wooden or iron staff with a retractable chain at the end. The current idea to have a light melee weapon seems based on the Kusarigama, a kama with a chain attached (although I suspect in DDO gameplay players will mostly be using daggers). However, the Chigiriki is just as valid as the Kusarigama. In fact, the Chigiriki belongs to the larger family of furi-zue which were brandishing sticks with chains attached. Both the Kusarigama and Chigiriki are used in the Isezaki line of the Japanese martial art Araki-ryu. Isezaki focuses on grappling with weaponry.

[Aelonwy]

You are going to end up with some weird build using swf swashbuckler. The issue with the current game design is a lot of the changes are very specific to a playstyle which causes 1 dimension class split to min max for end game.

I've clamored for this for the longest time to no avail. Acrobats and Swashbuckling should go hand in hand. I still can't understand why they haven't made this possible.

Ah, that's what was meant. NO. I did NOT mean for quarterstaff to suddenly be categorized as a "light weapon" for anything other than SdK chain and I understand why acrobat and swash don't go together, Acrobat is a 2HF playstyle, Swash is a SWF playstyle. I meant for quarterstaff to be a special exception to SdK chain if and only if there was enough investment in TA tree. I'm not interested in opening the door to some min-maxed multiclass monster... I'm interested in making the rogue iconic a solid choice for more than 1/3 of rogue builds.

[OfElectricMen]

This is a bad change that simply reinforces something that was bad design in the first place.

If you want to give the SK something else, some special oomph with the spiked chain, that's fine.

First, you make the spiked chain what it's supposed to be: An actual weapon that anyone can spend the feat to use. Until you do that, you're doing it wrong.

Chain, spiked: Exotic Weapon, 25 gp, 1d6 (Small)/ 2d4 (Medium), 20/x2, 10 lb. Piercing, Reach Weapon

A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.

You can make trip attacks with the chain. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.

When using a spiked chain, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a spiked chain sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.

THEN you build up a chain in the SK tree that gives them extra bonuses with this. Heck, give them the EWP for free.

[Xgya]

Ah, that's what was meant. NO. I did NOT mean for quarterstaff to suddenly be categorized as a "light weapon" for anything other than SdK chain and I understand why acrobat and swash don't go together, Acrobat is a 2HF playstyle, Swash is a SWF playstyle. I meant for quarterstaff to be a special exception to SdK chain if and only if there was enough investment in TA tree. I'm not interested in opening the door to some min-maxed multiclass monster... I'm interested in making the rogue iconic a solid choice for more than 1/3 of rogue builds.

Frankly, I'd be okay if the chain didn't have a limitation.
It currently doesn't, I don't understand the idea behind making it useful and suddenly make it limited to assassins.

Give it a 'ranged' version and let Mechanics use it. Let the guy using a huge chunk of metal use it.

If it's balanced, and the combat styles are balanced against one another, it shouldn't matter to balance if a style can use that move or not.

If the problem is realism, let me remind devs that a Druid that turns into a doggo uses his GREATAXE for damage, and nobody bats an eye.
I don't see the problem if that chain just happens to use any item's stats.

[IBCrabin]

Ah, that's what was meant. NO. I did NOT mean for quarterstaff to suddenly be categorized as a "light weapon" for anything other than SdK chain and I understand why acrobat and swash don't go together, Acrobat is a 2HF playstyle, Swash is a SWF playstyle. I meant for quarterstaff to be a special exception to SdK chain if and only if there was enough investment in TA tree. I'm not interested in opening the door to some min-maxed multiclass monster... I'm interested in making the rogue iconic a solid choice for more than 1/3 of rogue builds.

Anytime there is an attack with some type of multiplier attached to a skill, people will build around the skill. A lot of the current +1/+2 multiplier and or expand threat are tied to Tier 5 or minimum 6 level of a class. Anyone using Vistani can tied in the SDK chain attack to further increase the efficiency of a particular build. With racial completionist people can add this without much trade off unlike skills in the class tree.

This may not 1 shot thing like Eldritch tempest using adrenaline, but T4 Greater Spiked Chain Attack is close to half the cool down of ET with +2 multiplier and 3 AOE spin. Definitely good addition to any light weapon build.

I rather they didn't include any skill with multiplier in a racial tree. Before racial PLs, sure why not because there is a trade off of 15+ ap spent in there. Now pretty much anyone using light weapons with a good portion of racial PLs done will not have much reason to use anything else but SDK for AOE clearing even if it has an 18 sec cooldown.

[salmag]

This is a bad change that simply reinforces something that was bad design in the first place.

If you want to give the SK something else, some special oomph with the spiked chain, that's fine.

First, you make the spiked chain what it's supposed to be: An actual weapon that anyone can spend the feat to use. Until you do that, you're doing it wrong.

Chain, spiked: Exotic Weapon, 25 gp, 1d6 (Small)/ 2d4 (Medium), 20/x2, 10 lb. Piercing, Reach Weapon

A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.

You can make trip attacks with the chain. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.

When using a spiked chain, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a spiked chain sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.

THEN you build up a chain in the SK tree that gives them extra bonuses with this. Heck, give them the EWP for free.

+1

This should have been implemented DAY ONE with Shadar-kai, along with giving them the exotic proficiency for free.

-Hook-Hammers should also be added as exotic, with Gnomes given the proficiency.
-Spells should be added to the spell books (looking at you Evards Tentacle), instead of added to SLAs to certain classes only.
-etc.
-etc.
-etc

It really does make one wonder if the devs pick up books other than the Players Handbook or Dungeon Masters Guide. I digress, though.

Back on topic.
There are some good suggestions in here.
-Treating TA quarterstaffs as light weapons for chain use is a really good one.
-Adding Spiked Chains as an Exotic Weapon, then giving Shadar-Kai bonuses is another.
-Swapping out Raise Dead (since they are readily available in Scrolls) for something else is ANOTHER great suggestion.
-etc.
-etc.
-etc.

However, the Devs will ignore 99% of the suggestions here; they'll do whatever they want to do AND they'll do it despite objections or suggestions for the better.

Just saying.

[Shedrakzo]

After seeing additional feedback by players and a response from Steelstar, I’d like to reiterate my own suggestion for the Chain attack.

I think the first and most important question to be answered by Steelstar or another developer is with this being an attack that uses our weapons, what combat style riders gets used? Doublestrike, Offhand strike, Offhand doublestrike, and Strikethrough (If used by a T5 tempest with the light weapon restriction).

If the answer is none or all of those, then I think the solution for allowing all weapons to use the chain similar to live is simple: make the chain attack double your sneak attack die if you’re wielding a singular weapon. That covers TWF, SWF, and S&B.

That perfectly encapsulates the design of making the player chain as deadly as the Shadar-Kai NPCs, keeps the theme of the ‘Shadar-Kai Assassin’ alive, and finally allows other Shadar-Kai themes to be played and use the chain. AKA: The Shadar-Kai Blackguards, who mostly seem to have mauls equipped visually.

Most of the multiclass builds I can think of that would be using ‘light’ weapons, as the current proposal shows, would still benefit from the idea of doubling sneak attack damage. On the flip side of that, Thief Acrobats and any other two-hander build will instead have their innate benefit of having higher weapon die, and, ultimately, depending on how many sneak die the player has, the ‘light’ weapon option wins out damage-wise in the end.

On the topic of Winter Favored, someone suggested making this strip cold immunity/resistance/healing. I think this would be a great route to go, though I definitely think it could use some die improvements or MP scaling increase. If this strips cold, this would open Shadar-Kai to some interesting builds involving Eldritch Knight, Warchanter, or Carceri Warlock.

And finally I’d like to reconsider my stance on the topic of Displacement. While I still think permanent displacement instead of an SLA is a great quality of life if that’s the route things go, I think a more thematic idea would be the proposed stacking Incorporeality bonus like other’s have stated. A racial 10-15% would reinforce the ‘ghostly’ nature of the Shadar-Kai and give them a very unique synergy with both Shadowdancer’s Shadow Form and Wraith form from Palemaster, both of which fit thematically with Shadar-Kai. This won’t break the endgame meta by any stretch, but will give the Shadar-kai an unique defense in heroic and epics, and is arguably a bit more useful to any traditional rogue Shadar-Kai as opposed to a displacement SLA that they won’t have the metamagics to extend or quicken.

[Iriale]

Ah, that's what was meant. NO. I did NOT mean for quarterstaff to suddenly be categorized as a "light weapon" for anything other than SdK chain and I understand why acrobat and swash don't go together, Acrobat is a 2HF playstyle, Swash is a SWF playstyle. I meant for quarterstaff to be a special exception to SdK chain if and only if there was enough investment in TA tree. I'm not interested in opening the door to some min-maxed multiclass monster... I'm interested in making the rogue iconic a solid choice for more than 1/3 of rogue builds.

In D&D third edition the qstaff is classified as a two-handed weapon for its use "little trained", but it is a weapon of the TWF line for a more trained fighting, that is, if you want to attack with both ends of the qstaff you need the TWF line of feats. For those who come from playing pnp, the way the DDO handles the qstaff is always surprising. DDO has simplified qstaff combat by reducing it to a two-handed weapon, but the truth is that it would have been better to reduce it to a TWF weapon, because the classes it is aimed at are more Dex than Str. And that's without talk about the gulf in damage dice and critical profile with other two-handed weapons. The way the DDO has handled qstaff fighting has always made it an inefficient weapon. It doesn't help either that the qstaff trees don't quite help alleviate the deficiencies of a two-handed weapon with terrible stats. In any case, it is such an old implementation that that it is unrealistic to expect a change now, but keep in mind why some people feel that the qstaff is not really a typical two-handed weapon.

Devs should stop seeing the staff as a weapon equivalent to a sword or axe, because it is not. Its stats are terrible compared to other two-handed weapons, and fighting with it more closely resembles a dexterity-based style than strength-based, despite the fact that DDO has cornered him to a strength-based style that doesn't match the weapon. Devs should allow using the chain with an equipped qstaff, yes. By logic and by balance, given that the Thief acrobat is the poorest style of the three available to the rogue and it makes no sense to limit the chain to only assassins.

Although I agree with what several posters have said before that the real logical thing would be to create the spiked chain as another weapon, and that the shadar-kai tree gives bonuses to that weapon. But if I am sure that, as always, devs will not listen to our proposals and will do whatever they want in relation to the staff and the shadar-kai tree (I honestly do not know why they ask, if in the end they never change their preconceptions), much less are they going to go to the trouble of redesigning everything by creating a new weapon.

I am also surprised that the devs have chosen permanent displacement instead of negative energy immunity (which seems almost essential in people from the Plane of Shadow) and stackable incorporeality (which seems very thematic with the Shadow plane), but I have to say that it is a good enhancement, although less thematic.

[Doktr_Strangelove]

Steelstar
"It's a level 3 racial enhancement, it doesn't need to be the shining star of endgame. That said, a lot of people can and do use Displacement throughout the game, and if you find yourself not needing it as you hit higher levels, it's fairly trivial to reset the tree and spend those points elsewhere."

Since people have pointed out the useful/uselessness of displacement in reaper or even as an enhancement tree choice that isn't very tempting, maybe an increase to dodge and dodge cap of 3/6/9 would be generally a lot more useful. I've always thought rogues are quick, greasy, super nimble, tricksters and that something like a high dodge would be a unique way to mitigate damage if they can't massively improve their PRR/MRR, or AC.

I might also suggest a change to, or a tier 4 additional enh of a mass binding chains. If you can't kill a bunch of mobs within the timer of the attack you've drawn a massive amount of aggro that seems as an assassin rogue, you shouldn't have. But if you could slow an entire mob allowing you/your party to flank and work them down it would be a nice melee crowd control. Maybe the math monkeys can figure out if it's better if say we were to remove the light weapon damage so there wouldn't be any consideration of what you had in your hands as this is a separate chain weapon, but instead made it a no save binding chains it would be pretty unique to the tree and for a different kind of crowd control where you wouldn't require a caster as much.

Why do we have all these trap parts if it isn't easy to make a trap that's just as effective against mobs? With all these new rangers around does anyone ever use spiked growth or is it just more annoying bush? Can't things like this in game meant to help crowd control be useable?

Just a couple of ideas to add some balancing of classes and game play if we wanted to try and solo or be more helpful in groups.

[jakeelala]

Displacement? Nobody cares all that much about Displacement. Why? Because too often in end-game content, it seems like most of the mobs have true seeing anyway making displacement useless.

Now, if Steelstar were to offer 25% Etherealness, THAT would be MUCH better. Not all that many mobs have ghost touch.

This ability should be a multi select where you choose some level of stacking etherealness OR Displacement. This will even out the gear curve for newer folks/alts as well as leave a decent perk for people who can self cast displace all day long already

[Artos_Fabril]

I rather they didn't include any skill with multiplier in a racial tree. Before racial PLs, sure why not because there is a trade off of 15+ ap spent in there. Now pretty much anyone using light weapons with a good portion of racial PLs done will not have much reason to use anything else but SDK for AOE clearing even if it has an 18 sec cooldown.

Given how much uproar there was from sorcs for moving Meteor Swarm from 6 to 9 seconds CD, it seems less likely that "everyone" will build around an 18 second CD attack that also has a long animation time.

[Enderoc]

And just like that there were kensai monk rogues everywhere...