First Look: Shadar-Kai Adjustments

[cru121]

triple cleave, and has an increased damage, and has increased chance to crit.

- more than double the cooldown of cleaves
- let's see how useful the animation is
- and it's a level 15 ability. if shadar-kai were a normal race, this would be different

[LurkingVeteran]

Nice with some quick love for Shadar-Kai!

Displacement on T3 is very good for newbies, maybe too good (c.f. Elf dragonmark), but Displacement mainly helps newbies so *shrug*.

I'm a bit concerned about the whirling chain attacks seeming to be much better with two-handed weapons now (it's a rogue iconic after all). I suggest you make both versions hit with off-hand for TWF characters. Cleaves that work for TWF are badly needed, they are so far behind THF in AoE that it's impossible to balance both styles when modern quests have large groups of mobs.

I'm also concerned that Greater Spiked Chain Attack might be too good, but it's difficult to tell without knowing the exact duration. It gives me vibes of the EK T5, where all THF builds will be tempted to run with this to get AoE burst. I'm also not a fan of long duration moves. I realize it's much faster than it used to be and there might be lore reasons, but it honestly translates very poorly to a fast game like DDO. Being forced to take no actions is always unfun.

I therefore suggest: a) Reduce the duration of both chain attacks to Cleave-length and tweak the crit mult or number of attacks to compensate? and/or b) Optionally, allow movement without cancelling it, if possible animation-wise.

This should also have 1 off-hand strike to not be too far behind THF.

[cru121]

I'm a bit concerned about the whirling chain attacks seeming to be much better with two-handed weapons now

Chain attacks require a light melee weapon.

At level 1, all Shadar-Kai characters now get a Feat: Spiked Chain Attack: Light Melee Weapon Attack: Using a Spiked Chain (but the stats from your main-hand weapon), perform 3 AOE melee attacks with +1[W], +1 Critical Threat Range, and +1 Critical Multiplier. Your Shadar-Kai Racial Enhancements may add to this attack. (12 second cooldown).

[LurkingVeteran]

Chain attacks require a light melee weapon.

Okay, thanks. It's still better with SWF+offhand versatility than TWF tough, but that might be nitpicking as most won't be using a light weapon anyway.

My main point still stands about a long-duration attack that breaks on movement being unfun. It's almost always better to make it faster with lower CD and tweak the numbers if needed. However, it's hard to tell for sure since we don't know what the duration actually is here. I hope somebody records a video :-)

[Enoach]

look forward to seeing the final update. I enjoyed playing this race, but was disappointed with the chain attack which seemed to me to be the iconic item.

I'm on the fence about the displacement sla. I would think something more like the ability to switch planes would be more in line, It would give them the Displacement, incorporeal and fast movement until they interact with the physical plane. Just my thoughts.

[LurkingVeteran]

Add more sneak attack dice, assassinate dc boost, some form of level drain on the t5 gloom.

Just don't make this race obligatory for assassins (DC boost), that's how we get power creep.

[Steelstar]

My main point still stands about a long-duration attack that breaks on movement being unfun.

We agree! That's why, as we said in the OP, we sped them up and that you can move while using the Chain Attacks now.

• This uses the 3-swing animation the T1 Chain Attack currently uses, but this version is faster than the current Live version at its base, and also scales with your Attack speed. It's longer than Cleave, but also hits three times!
• Importantly, you can now move while using it, and cancel out of it early by tumbling. You won't get the remaining hits, and the attack will be on cooldown, but you can bail out that way.

To be really clear, that last sentence about the remaining hits applies to tumbling, not moving.

[Cernunan]

Owing to a thread I started earlier this morning (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...f-Acrobat-Race) I have a question... what dex based race would you use for a Thief Acrobat build? There doesn't seem to be any quarterstaff support in any racial tree, except perhaps Half orc because it supports 2HF but is the opposite of Dex based.

And here we have a dex based rogue-ish race and its primary uniqueness (chain attack) disallows quarterstaff because of the light melee wpn requirement. So where would you go for TA?

Absolutely agree with this. The charges are great to make SK an iconic rouge race. One of the basic playstyles of the rouge class is a thief acrobat.
Excluding the icon from using its class iconic ability while using one of the three class icon abilities seems a mistake

[LurkingVeteran]

We agree! That's why, as we said in the OP, we sped them up and that you can move while using the Chain Attacks now.



To be really clear, that last sentence about the remaining hits applies to tumbling, not moving.

Ah, that makes a world of difference. Thanks :-)

I think the reason people were concerned is because 3 hits with +2 mult looks really strong, and since we don't know the duration we assume it's balanced by a longer duration. If we can move without cancelling it, that is not as much of a problem. Since it's for light weapon only, balance might also be fine. Hard to say.

That said, this is one of the few means of decent AoE for light weapon users in the game, so I'm sure they will be all over it regardless. The game just has so many enemies now even solo on reaper.

As a tangent, I think it would be fine to allow some generic cleaves to use off-hand, THF is light years ahead anyway due to strike-trough. Optionally, tone down the spawn numbers for short-manned groups instead. This will also help with lag. You probably wouldn't need to tweak xp/monstar stats that much to maintain difficulty with fewer monsters since soloers mostly run AoE builds now anyway.

[LurkingVeteran]

Absolutely agree with this. The charges are great to make SK an iconic rouge race. One of the basic playstyles of the rouge class is a thief acrobat.
Excluding the icon from using its class iconic ability while using one of the three class icon abilities seems a mistake

One option would be to reduce the number of attacks of the Greater chain from 3->2, then allow staff to be used as well as add an off-hand attack. That way TWF and staff will be closer to parity.

For the regular chain, you could probably just allow staff since it's not as good. I still think you could generally add an off-hand attack to that if it has a substantial animation, but might need to tweak CD. It's a difficult balancing act since cleaves for TWF basically did not exist previously.

[ThomasHunter]

With Displacement, I’m considering playing this Iconic again. My brain is bubbling over with ideas. I’m thinking some Ranger to use Scimitars as a light weapon as a splash for example. SWF or 2WF? Maybe a buckler even?

[Mithrielwielder]

The chain attacks need to be scaled, and defenses are needed so you don't die in melee. But taking away the ability to chain attack while using throwing daggers is a major drawback. That was one of the few advantages the class had. You seems to be forcing them into melee.

[droid327]

This looks great - giving some meaningful AOE to light melee weapon builds, which usually mean SWF and obligate single-target (outside of Cleaves, which are woefully inadequate by themselves right now, especially for 1h melee where the range is short and the damage low). I foresee SDK Swash bringing about a resurgence of Shortswords.

Just too bad that none of the FR deities have Light Melee favored weapons...kinda leaves a lot of potential Divine builds out of the mix. I imagine making Shar an actual deity for them to follow (like how MLord is locked into Amaunator) is outside the scope of the update, though. Maybe give them a racial Favored Weapon similar to Dwarf? Shar's lore FW is the chakram - which doesnt exist in DDO (maybe Shuriken, but that doesnt help with 1h melee anyway). Wiki says Shar's traditional worshippers include miners...maybe make Light Pick a Favored Weapon? That'd create some rolespace for what's currently a totally ignored weapon, and preserves overlap with Swash as well.

If you're going to give them Displacement SLA with zero cost...why not just give them perma-Displacement? Why make them push the button every couple minutes? Extra arbitrary button pushes (ie there's no reason not to push the button as soon as you're able) are something the game should be looking to remove, not create.

About Thief-Acrobat...I kinda think that SDK are specifically assassins in the lore, and if you're going to support TA, then what about Mechanic? They're Rogues too. Should they be able to Chain Attack using their GXB stats? I'm fine with it staying a Light Melee attack. I think trying to support Qstaves would open too many cans of worms regarding interactions with, e.g. Staff Barb THF or Staff EK/PM. Plus, balance-wise, THF doesnt nearly need the extra AOE as much as SWF does. I think that the Chain Attack Trip DC should maybe be changed to Assassinate DC, though, considering Trip bonuses are largely in the TA tree...and maybe make them DEX/INT since INT is also a supported stat for Assassins, and being DEX based currently has more downside in the "current meta" that you're trying to improve SDK for.

[Faltout]

About Thief-Acrobat...I kinda think that SDK are specifically assassins in the lore, and if you're going to support TA, then what about Mechanic? They're Rogues too. Should they be able to Chain Attack using their GXB stats? I'm fine with it staying a Light Melee attack. I think trying to support Qstaves would open too many cans of worms regarding interactions with, e.g. Staff Barb THF or Staff EK/PM. Plus, balance-wise, THF doesnt nearly need the extra AOE as much as SWF does. I think that the Chain Attack Trip DC should maybe be changed to Assassinate DC, though, considering Trip bonuses are largely in the TA tree...and maybe make them DEX/INT since INT is also a supported stat for Assassins, and being DEX based currently has more downside in the "current meta" that you're trying to improve SDK for.

1) Mechanic is not a melee character so using chain did nothing to it in the first place.
2) There's no need to change the chain attack to use the weapon stats. If the damage per level is increased a bit (from 1d6 to 1d8 or 1d10) then the damage is comparable to weapon strikes and it's a 360 AOE with a huge range.
3) I don't think Assassins would use this ability very much due to the playstyle that dictates single target. If Assassins don't use it, Thief-Acrobats can't use it, Mechanics don't use it, then who is going to use it? The Swashbucklers?

[droid327]

2) There's no need to change the chain attack to use the weapon stats. If the damage per level is increased a bit (from 1d6 to 1d8 or 1d10) then the damage is comparable to weapon strikes and it's a 360 AOE with a huge range.
3) I don't think Assassins would use this ability very much due to the playstyle that dictates single target. If Assassins don't use it, Thief-Acrobats can't use it, Mechanics don't use it, then who is going to use it? The Swashbucklers?

2) The big issue with Qstaff is that Chain is a bona fide weapon attack now...so it gets 2.5x stat to dmg with a Qstaff (or 3.0x if you have a Trance), while SWF is stuck at 1.75x (2.25x, or 2.5x with empty offhand, and 30% faster) and TWF at 1.0 (1.5). That's a pretty big disparity.

3) Much like Swash, Assassin is a single-target build that would benefit a lot from some meaningful AOE to use as needed. It would be a big accelerator for trash-clearing, and then you would have your single-target toolkit still for bosses.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

1) Mechanic is not a melee character so using chain did nothing to it in the first place.

You can transform a Mechanic intoi a melee fighter by investing a few points in the Harper tree.
It's a bit complicated, though and requires better gear.
But for unepic levels, it's totally okay.

[droid327]

With Displacement, I’m considering playing this Iconic again. My brain is bubbling over with ideas. I’m thinking some Ranger to use Scimitars as a light weapon as a splash for example. SWF or 2WF? Maybe a buckler even?

I dont think, as long as its DEX based, the Trip feature is worth building for...not while DEX lacks a Trance or something comparable, anyway. DEX is only good for Throwers, and they cant use Chain

Light melee kinda limits your synergy: Swash, Assassin.
- Tempest is kinda redundant...they already get plenty of good AoE in DoD, and all their good stuff is locked into T5 and deep cores, so there's not much point in trying to T4 Tempest/T5 something else.
- Since SDKs have no option for Favored Light Melee, that kinda leaves Paladins and FvS out of the equation.
- Druid depends entirely on if it works with Animal Form.
- SWF EK (or VC Alch), maybe, since that lets you use Orbs, and pairs your Chain with your EK Cleaves for more sustained AOE.
- Maybe a SWF Kensei, as a flavor build.
- Ninja on paper, but nothing in that tree is really worth using.
- SWF ES is really the only "creative" build I can think of, since they really lack AOE (their Bursts just suck). That might be a useful debuffing build, between Chain and the various Warlock debuffs, and again can make use of a good Orb.
- Maybe a non-caster caster lol....FI for Shadowblades, EK for Fan of Blades, and two Chains. Summoned Shadowblade makes your Chain do pure Force damage.

[Snormal]

Chain attacks require a light melee weapon.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shining_Crescents

[LurkingVeteran]

I dont think, as long as its DEX based, the Trip feature is worth building for...not while DEX lacks a Trance or something comparable, anyway. DEX is only good for Throwers, and they cant use Chain

Light melee kinda limits your synergy: Swash, Assassin.
- Tempest is kinda redundant...they already get plenty of good AoE in DoD, and all their good stuff is locked into T5 and deep cores, so there's not much point in trying to T4 Tempest/T5 something else.
- Since SDKs have no option for Favored Light Melee, that kinda leaves Paladins and FvS out of the equation.
- Druid depends entirely on if it works with Animal Form.
- SWF EK (or VC Alch), maybe, since that lets you use Orbs, and pairs your Chain with your EK Cleaves for more sustained AOE.
- Maybe a SWF Kensei, as a flavor build.
- Ninja on paper, but nothing in that tree is really worth using.
- SWF ES is really the only "creative" build I can think of, since they really lack AOE (their Bursts just suck). That might be a useful debuffing build, between Chain and the various Warlock debuffs, and again can make use of a good Orb.
- Maybe a non-caster caster lol....FI for Shadowblades, EK for Fan of Blades, and two Chains. Summoned Shadowblade makes your Chain do pure Force damage.

Dex also works with Assassinate, SD insta-kills, Thief Acrobat trips. I agree Dex is in kind of a bad place at the moment though, but on the other hand trances cost AP. That said, you can still use a trance with DEX (or STR). If you can solve the gear tetris to slot some wis or int, it's like a <10 difference from a primary wis/int build. It's a problem if your tactics DC is already weak, but otherwise it might be fine. I wonder if trance tactics really should stack with tactics items though.

[Aelonwy]

About Thief-Acrobat...I kinda think that SDK are specifically assassins in the lore, and if you're going to support TA, then what about Mechanic? They're Rogues too. Should they be able to Chain Attack using their GXB stats? I'm fine with it staying a Light Melee attack. I think trying to support Qstaves would open too many cans of worms regarding interactions with, e.g. Staff Barb THF or Staff EK/PM. Plus, balance-wise, THF doesnt nearly need the extra AOE as much as SWF does. I think that the Chain Attack Trip DC should maybe be changed to Assassinate DC, though, considering Trip bonuses are largely in the TA tree...and maybe make them DEX/INT since INT is also a supported stat for Assassins, and being DEX based currently has more downside in the "current meta" that you're trying to improve SDK for.

To be fair I never said Shadar-kai must have support for TA nor that their chain must work with Qstaff, I said they're a dex based rogue-ish race that has just been denied synergy between their most unique racial feature and TA. I then asked point-blank which race the devs see as having the most synergy or support for the dex-based TA tree.

Because the only race that seems to be any real assistance to the playstyle is half-orc (not dex based and not my first choice for a rogue.) NO race gets bonus to hit/dmg with Qstaff. What I am saying is the the rogue ICONIC that is actually dex based is a poor choice for the most dex based rogue tree. So the next most rogue-ish race, Halfling also dex based but only has bonuses for throwing weapons and with a penalty to strength makes getting the THF line more difficult. After that we have various flavors of elf, none of which have any bonuses to fighting with quarterstaff and only Wood Elf has anything for THF in Tier4. So which is it? What is a TA most likely to be?

It sounds like from what you said above you want instead to strengthen Shadar-kai's synergy with Assassin. I don't deny the lore mostly supports that but do we want an Iconic that is so heavily pigeon-holed not only to one class but to one tree of said class? instead of being a good fit for that entire class?