Server Attitudes.

[Looting_Bin]

So, there I was after getting all the rewards from hardcore server coming back and hitting up some raids on my main. Mind you I started at head-start (which was for people that pre-ordered the game). I had seen some videos on the Fey Raid and was wanting to join one. Glorious there was an lfm up. Excellent, I thought to my self. As we were waiting for people to gather the party leader asked if there was anyone new to the raid no judgment's would be made. So, being spoiled by the politeness of the hardcore server admitted this would be my first completion. (who hasn't jumped into raids to see the mechanics these days?) Then when asked if I knew how to dance I asked "like emote?". The party leader then booted me from the raid stating he didn't want to explain an entire raid to a dps. I of course told him there isnt much to explain to dps what to do in a raid. This is the reason the server is losing population and failing to grow. The attitudes here need to improve and stop assuming someone cant figure out move left forward right and back. I have been all over this server and been playing far longer than most people that currently play. I never assume that the person I am playing with can always be replaced. There's a reason why less and less are joining and more and more are leaving.

All I am trying to say is I have taught countless raids to countless people far more complex than "move". You want to be able to keep playing then make an atmosphere where people feel welcomed and not beat down by your pride.

[cru121]

This is sad. Sorry to hear that you run into an idiot.

Good news that the "dance" part is pretty easy.

Special mechanic: Hyrsam occasionally plays a fairly lethal song, asking you to move as he plays. Watch out for DM text and arrows above your character's head and move accordingly: Strafe left, strafe right, run forward, run back. Your character does not actually have to move (you can bump into an obstacle, that's not a problem), and you can also turn around while doing the moves. If you fail to move as commanded, your character takes significant damage.

[mikarddo]

Sorry to hear that. I have led many PUG raids on G-land also for Dryad and never kicked anyone for being new to a raid.

[Gniewomir]

Too few details. While there're difficulties that allow teaching newbies (LN/LH) there're also difficulties like r10 where even the smallest mistake can cause entire party to wipe, so i could understand leader who would prefer someone more experienced and i see nothing wrong about it (in fact i would be the first to kick from party someone joining r10 quests without even maxed ed). The attitude is not one side only thing. There's a difference between leader being a **** and leader simply doing his job - the second one also include forming party that have a chance of completing specific quest/raid on chosen difficulty instead of wasting 12 people time without any chance of completing. On the other hand there're players with attitude like "oh, i don't care what difficulty, i'm good enough, i don't give a **** about preparation, ill let others carry me, i have no clue what to do, i dont care". Last two quarrels i had as a raid leader were:

1. After i kicked someone from LN THTH when it was still a thing. I told 1st life player with lvl 0 ED (lvl 30 means he got enough xp to max at least 4 of them) to change ed to maxed one. He ignored my politely expressed order and after i kicked him he was surprised a lot cause i don't know his build, he dont need ed and then started calling me names.
2. After i (once again politely) asked 3 players to leave group after RSO cause they were soulstones all the time and the next thing we were going to run was R1 KT pug (again: when it was still a thing to not disregard).

Like i said, too few details in this thread to even judge who is the bad guy here.

For the record: i do believe telling leader that you're new/dont know raid is even mandatory, i still appreciate players who do it instead of causing mess inside and then admitting they have no clue what to do. I have no problem with newbies and when it's possible i always try to provide basic information what to do/what to not do if i know someone is new. But there're raids/difficulties that i would probably ask someone new to leave.

PS: i don't know dryad, bought fey recently so once again i cant judge what dps do here, but dps in ddo is not always just staying in one place and doing nothing except swinging sword. If someone who don't know raid would be cheeky enough to tell me that there's nothing for him to learn cause he's dps so he can run like a headless chicken and just swing his sword - it's probably not the attitude i would like to see in my party.

[MacDubh]

The Fey raid is fairly simple and newb friendly, plenty of folk will explain mechanics even if leader doesn't.

As long as there are a few experienced folk (puzzler, bluffer, plus generic healer and tank. instakiller nice) there is no real problem in having a default dps approach of just follow the gang.

Always nice to at least read the wiki for raids (or watch a vid), but the raid leader here was bang out of order.

Generally have had good experience with raids on G-land.
Occasional issues with overambitiousness (e.g. folk joining a reaper raid when not really capable. A few can be carried but not too many)
Only once booted from a raid pre-start because the raid leader didn't like my fighter being in Leg Dreadnought - told me to change to a 'better destiny' and booted when I didn't. But he's an isolated case, may have had bad experiences in past. It was only Baba.

As an altoholic I run a variety of toons in raids, and know some are way stronger than others. I keep the weaker toons out of harder raids/higher diffficulties, as I don't like being a passenger.

The G-land raiding scene at the moment is quite lively and inclusive. Don't give up.

[Gniewomir]

The Fey raid is fairly simple and newb friendly, plenty of folk will explain mechanics even if leader doesn't.

As long as there are a few experienced folk (puzzler, bluffer, plus generic healer and tank. instakiller nice) there is no real problem in having a default dps approach of just follow the gang.

And thats something OP had no clue about, cause like he said he never run the raid. For example R1 strahd pug for a few months after release was like 30 min struggle through stairs and then one dps with no clue what to do could cause entire party to wipe at cards or brides/strahd (killing them one by one without any coordination). I still remember wipes in deathwyrms years ago cause half of party was dead but too cool to listen to leader and run away from stones twice to get rid of anti raise thingie. Like i said, i don't know dryad, but neither do OP so he had no right to judge what dps should or shouldn't do in this specific raid. I can understand frustration after being kicked from party, but if i would ask someone to leave and he would respond in so cheeky way (here: i'm dps, i don't have to know anything, i can just swing my sword) i would probably squelch him and make sure to not allow him ever again into any of my lfms, cause i'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who never run a raid but that doesnt stop him from being arrogant enough to tell leader what he's allowed to expect from team members.

Just for clarification: i agree kicking someone without any reason is rude, but also i don't see a problem in kicking someone from party when there's a good reason to do it. And from my experience people who do argue after being kicked are usually not a nice guys.

[awar1234]

First I want to say come to ARGO. So friendly and helpful here, but then I want to no don’t come because we don’t need the elitism to come here.

Sarlona is bad also. Tried that server and search out a YouTube poster over there and he would not help me or even let me join his guild until I “prove” myself???? I don’t go to Sarlona anymore or watch his videos.

IMHO this is just a game.... come on people.... just a game. If you can’t even helpful and polite in a game then your real world life is going to be worse.
If you feel entitled or elite in a game, then you got problems.

So come here her to Argo, you will get help and be willing to help others even if it conflicts with your ego.

[Epicsoul]

Then when asked if I knew how to dance I asked "like emote?". The party leader then booted me from the raid stating he didn't want to explain an entire raid to a dps.

It's an easy raid with simple mechanics. Explaining the entire raid would have taken maybe 2min. Perhaps the leader lacks the capacity to teach. The only way I might agree with the party leader is if it was R1+. Regardless, it was handled bad.

However, I recommend all new raiders watch videos (like you did), as well as read any existing guides before joining raids. That way one has SOME understanding of the mechanics, even if it's not first-hand experience.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I'll explain the entire raid, everything you need to know in 3 steps.

1. Follow the other melee
2. Attack the enemies
3. There isn't a 3rd step, just go back to 1.

fin

[Bacon_Burger]

If ANY player boots someone not familiar a quest or a RAID that requires teamwork and helping the 1st time runner, then that person is a jerk.

DDO is built on a MULTI-PLAYER platform, (solo doesn't count here). If a raid leader doesn't like that or whatever, then that person should NOT be leading a raid.

OP, put that person on your friend list, so you know who to send festival twigs or coal to.

[Looting_Bin]

Too few details. While there're difficulties that allow teaching newbies (LN/LH) there're also difficulties like r10 where even the smallest mistake can cause entire party to wipe, so i could understand leader who would prefer someone more experienced and i see nothing wrong about it (in fact i would be the first to kick from party someone joining r10 quests without even maxed ed). The attitude is not one side only thing. There's a difference between leader being a **** and leader simply doing his job - the second one also include forming party that have a chance of completing specific quest/raid on chosen difficulty instead of wasting 12 people time without any chance of completing. On the other hand there're players with attitude like "oh, i don't care what difficulty, i'm good enough, i don't give a **** about preparation, ill let others carry me, i have no clue what to do, i dont care". Last two quarrels i had as a raid leader were:

1. After i kicked someone from LN THTH when it was still a thing. I told 1st life player with lvl 0 ED (lvl 30 means he got enough xp to max at least 4 of them) to change ed to maxed one. He ignored my politely expressed order and after i kicked him he was surprised a lot cause i don't know his build, he dont need ed and then started calling me names.
2. After i (once again politely) asked 3 players to leave group after RSO cause they were soulstones all the time and the next thing we were going to run was R1 KT pug (again: when it was still a thing to not disregard).

Like i said, too few details in this thread to even judge who is the bad guy here.

For the record: i do believe telling leader that you're new/dont know raid is even mandatory, i still appreciate players who do it instead of causing mess inside and then admitting they have no clue what to do. I have no problem with newbies and when it's possible i always try to provide basic information what to do/what to not do if i know someone is new. But there're raids/difficulties that i would probably ask someone new to leave.

PS: i don't know dryad, bought fey recently so once again i cant judge what dps do here, but dps in ddo is not always just staying in one place and doing nothing except swinging sword. If someone who don't know raid would be cheeky enough to tell me that there's nothing for him to learn cause he's dps so he can run like a headless chicken and just swing his sword - it's probably not the attitude i would like to see in my party.

So I have a Soulrazor my sentient weapon with 3 full sentient sets plus additional for more bonuses. I have well over 100 past lives with ED's full, and completionist (class and Epic) and casually doing racial as they came out after I finished the others. 2 million plus RXP. As I said I was on my main I have been around the block 1000+ times. The raid... which lets be honest for a DPS is not that complex when the other roles are covered. The raid was only on R1 which is easier than elite because you get the bonuses of all those reaper points. But my complaint here is that instead of being polite or asking if I could handle my simple role, I was booted. The elitest pride they showed me is the same reason people don't want to play many end game raids. Because the people there are so rude. I am simply saying we as a server need to act better than that. We need to communicate and grow together because tomorrow you may only have new players left. Most days I pug and 90% of people started well after me. I am absolutely sure the party leader started after me as well. I do teach still the quest I know, and share even on higher reapers. But to assume someone isn't good enough because you don't party with them everyday is a sure fire way to push people away from playing DDO.

The action isnt the issue the attitude is.

[Looting_Bin]

And thats something OP had no clue about, cause like he said he never run the raid. For example R1 strahd pug for a few months after release was like 30 min struggle through stairs and then one dps with no clue what to do could cause entire party to wipe at cards or brides/strahd (killing them one by one without any coordination). I still remember wipes in deathwyrms years ago cause half of party was dead but too cool to listen to leader and run away from stones twice to get rid of anti raise thingie. Like i said, i don't know dryad, but neither do OP so he had no right to judge what dps should or shouldn't do in this specific raid. I can understand frustration after being kicked from party, but if i would ask someone to leave and he would respond in so cheeky way (here: i'm dps, i don't have to know anything, i can just swing my sword) i would probably squelch him and make sure to not allow him ever again into any of my lfms, cause i'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who never run a raid but that doesnt stop him from being arrogant enough to tell leader what he's allowed to expect from team members.

Just for clarification: i agree kicking someone without any reason is rude, but also i don't see a problem in kicking someone from party when there's a good reason to do it. And from my experience people who do argue after being kicked are usually not a nice guys.

But as I said I did research it with vids watching entire raids both failure and success on youtube. But as I said the attitude was the issue not the action.

[Enoach]

Really you were kicked because you didn't know that you would be given Arrows on the screen like dancing arcade game?

I'm pretty sure even if no one explained it to you, you would painfully figure it out

Now as someone that leads raids, I actually appreciate being told "first time here", that allows me to put on my 'Tour Guide' persona. If you don't tell me, you could miss out on a lot of information that can help you the next time you join that raid.

Generally speaking if you are new to a raid, don't touch/do anything until you are told to, or you see others doing it 90% of the time you follow that you will be good.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The Fey raid is fairly simple and newb friendly,

Which makes me wonder even more why it was never released as a low-level raid !

I'll never understand that.

[Torkzed]

So I have a Soulrazor my sentient weapon with 3 full sentient sets plus additional for more bonuses. I have well over 100 past lives with ED's full, and completionist (class and Epic) and casually doing racial as they came out after I finished the others. 2 million plus RXP. As I said I was on my main I have been around the block 1000+ times. The raid... which lets be honest for a DPS is not that complex when the other roles are covered. The raid was only on R1 which is easier than elite because you get the bonuses of all those reaper points. But my complaint here is that instead of being polite or asking if I could handle my simple role, I was booted. The elitest pride they showed me is the same reason people don't want to play many end game raids. Because the people there are so rude. I am simply saying we as a server need to act better than that. We need to communicate and grow together because tomorrow you may only have new players left. Most days I pug and 90% of people started well after me. I am absolutely sure the party leader started after me as well. I do teach still the quest I know, and share even on higher reapers. But to assume someone isn't good enough because you don't party with them everyday is a sure fire way to push people away from playing DDO.

The action isnt the issue the attitude is.

Okay, so this was on R1?

While I definitely agree it could have been handled better by the raid leader, I can start to understand it a bit better. I probably would not be shocked if a raid leader had suggested you try it on LH before doing it on R1, but they could have been polite about it.

There is a very large step up from LH (the most common level the raid is currently PUGed on G-Land) and R1. I don't think anyone bothers with LE at all. (A practice common to pretty much all raids...) If you have never run the raid before, it is much better to run it a few times on LH to get a feel for what is going on. There are plenty of opportunities to do so...it gets PUGed all the time on LH and is usually smooth. Occasionally, it is less smooth and you will get to learn the "dance".

I'm sorry for your experience, but I don't agree at all with the generalization that G-Land raiders are all elitist. It is far more common to have very nice and polite folks leading the PUG raids (Mikarddo, for example, has posted in this thread. He is great for leading PUG raids, but I think I usually see him post Dryad for LH.)

[Looting_Bin]

Really you were kicked because you didn't know that you would be given Arrows on the screen like dancing arcade game?

I'm pretty sure even if no one explained it to you, you would painfully figure it out

Now as someone that leads raids, I actually appreciate being told "first time here", that allows me to put on my 'Tour Guide' persona. If you don't tell me, you could miss out on a lot of information that can help you the next time you join that raid.

Generally speaking if you are new to a raid, don't touch/do anything until you are told to, or you see others doing it 90% of the time you follow that you will be good.

I agree with you on all fronts the raid is simple in its design and you do specific things that are easily communicated to players but important to do. Being that this raid and my role in it were fairly if not stupidly simple the attitude I had gotten was uncalled for. I am by no means saying OH he should have taken me but the dialogue options he choose are what's driving people away.

I find it hard to play when considering the lack of player base is coupled with the few remaining souls being rude. I wonder if I should just realize the game is dead after MANY years playing and move on. I have no problem running reapers and after that I decided to TR in hopes of finding some other players more social, yet now I am soloing reapers leveling up. But that is my issue if the only people left are rarely on or rude why play a multiplayer game where you cant stand the multiplayer aspect. I started playing during head-start before the game went live pay to play. I witnessed the first MOD and many that followed till they moved to updates and expansions with free to play. Yet after 15 years of playing this is the first time I looked around and saw something I didn't like.

[rabidfox]

Okay, so this was on R1?

While I definitely agree it could have been handled better by the raid leader, I can start to understand it a bit better. I probably would not be shocked if a raid leader had suggested you try it on LH before doing it on R1, but they could have been polite about it.

There is a very large step up from LH (the most common level the raid is currently PUGed on G-Land) and R1. I don't think anyone bothers with LE at all. (A practice common to pretty much all raids...) If you have never run the raid before, it is much better to run it a few times on LH to get a feel for what is going on. There are plenty of opportunities to do so...it gets PUGed all the time on LH and is usually smooth. Occasionally, it is less smooth and you will get to learn the "dance".

Yeah, R1 is a fairly significant step up from LH. LH is pretty easy and hard to mess up; I've seen R1 pugs go sideways even with people who know what they're doing (we've typically recovered but it can be an ugly win but that's pugs for ya). Booting someone without suggesting learning it on LH is a bit harsh, but I can understand the reasoning for not wanting someone's first time to be in a reaper run.

[Looting_Bin]

Yeah, R1 is a fairly significant step up from LH. LH is pretty easy and hard to mess up; I've seen R1 pugs go sideways even with people who know what they're doing (we've typically recovered but it can be an ugly win but that's pugs for ya). Booting someone without suggesting learning it on LH is a bit harsh, but I can understand the reasoning for not wanting someone's first time to be in a reaper run.

Again this post is about the attitudes we share with players not the actions taken.

[Gniewomir]

So I have a Soulrazor my sentient weapon with 3 full sentient sets plus additional for more bonuses. I have well over 100 past lives with ED's full, and completionist (class and Epic) and casually doing racial as they came out after I finished the others. 2 million plus RXP. As I said I was on my main I have been around the block 1000+ times. The raid... which lets be honest for a DPS is not that complex when the other roles are covered. The raid was only on R1 which is easier than elite because you get the bonuses of all those reaper points. But my complaint here is that instead of being polite or asking if I could handle my simple role, I was booted. The elitest pride they showed me is the same reason people don't want to play many end game raids. Because the people there are so rude. I am simply saying we as a server need to act better than that. We need to communicate and grow together because tomorrow you may only have new players left. Most days I pug and 90% of people started well after me. I am absolutely sure the party leader started after me as well. I do teach still the quest I know, and share even on higher reapers. But to assume someone isn't good enough because you don't party with them everyday is a sure fire way to push people away from playing DDO.

The action isnt the issue the attitude is.

I assure you i've got "similar" stats + much, much more rxp and joining newest raid (the one i've never run before) on the highest difficulty (pugs are doing) is the last thing i would do. Like Torkzed said, there's plenty of LH dryad lfms every day to learn it without any preassure. If you see lfm for the highest difficulty (pugs are doing) then it's either:
- a mistake that soon after starting will become a disaster
- or lfm hosted by experienced players who might expect similar skills/knowledge
How many lifes you have is irrelevant. I play on ghallanda too and i know players who have 100+ pls, years of playing and they still have huge problems to run any ee quest alone. There's not many of them, but they're here. And it's not like amount of past lifes is waving like a flag above your head, not everybody have to know how long everyone play etc.

I see more and more arrogancy here and i sincerely don't like it. "i did 100 pls so noone will tell me what i can run and what i cant". "dps is simple role and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid", "im dps so im allowed to have no clue what to do", "leader started playing after me, so he got no right to judge if he needs me in his own party or not", "someone dared to not accept me to his party, ill slander him on forums". Of course i'm exaggerating right now, but it's seems like your type of attitude.

*snip*Because the people there are so rude. I am simply saying we as a server need to act better than that. We need to communicate and grow together because tomorrow you may only have new players left*snip*But to assume someone isn't good enough because you don't party with them everyday is a sure fire way to push people away from playing DDO.

Well, if you never even played chess but you played checkers a lot people might assume you cannot compete with Magnus Carlsen. But who knows, maybe at your first attempt to play chess you will win world championship. Of course there's a chance. But for everyone who play chess this chance is somewhere between "possibility of happening equal to 0" and "thats a prank, right?". What im trying to say: if instead of running LH/LN you're thinking "i'm too cool to join lower difficulty so i i'll join r1 and i don't care if they want me or not - well, i agree players attitude sometimes is wrong, but i suggest you thinking a bit if your own is flawless.

PS: in literally every game in the world players will experience exclusion. From time to time i play 24 years old RTS and i assure you - in majority of skirmishes they'll ban you from server without mercy if you'll not answer 10 min long survey about your skills (and i'm talking about really detailed questions that majority of players have no clue about). If you join pro game in any FPS you'll be slaughtered without mercy and banned from server, cause those players also want to have fun by competing with each other, not just grinding easy kills.

Quick summarise: if leader told you to fu** yourself and then he kicked you from party - yes, he's evil person. If he kicked you without any explanation or even simple "sorry, we need someone more experienced" - he's rude. But if he did none of such things and he just chose that he prefer someone more experienced in party running elitist content (r1 instead of lh like 90% of ghallanda players) - it's his right as a leader and in this situation there's (in my arrogant opinion) something wrong with you if now you're trying kick up a row on forum.

[Looting_Bin]

I assure you i've got "similar" stats + much, much more rxp and joining newest raid (the one i've never run before) on the highest difficulty (pugs are doing) is the last thing i would do. Like Torkzed said, there's plenty of LH dryad lfms every day to learn it without any preassure. If you see lfm for the highest difficulty (pugs are doing) then it's either:
- a mistake that soon after starting will become a disaster
- or lfm hosted by experienced players who might expect similar skills/knowledge
How many lifes you have is irrelevant. I play on ghallanda too and i know players who have 100+ pls, years of playing and they still have huge problems to run any ee quest alone. There's not many of them, but they're here. And it's not like amount of past lifes is waving like a flag above your head, not everybody have to know how long everyone play etc.

I see more and more arrogancy here and i sincerely don't like it. "i did 100 pls so noone will tell me what i can run and what i cant". "dps is simple role and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid", "im dps so im allowed to have no clue what to do", "leader started playing after me, so he got no right to judge if he needs me in his own party or not", "someone dared to not accept me to his party, ill slander him on forums". Of course i'm exaggerating right now, but it's seems like your type of attitude.



Well, if you never even played chess but you played checkers a lot people might assume you cannot compete with Magnus Carlsen. But who knows, maybe at your first attempt to play chess you will win world championship. Of course there's a chance. But for everyone who play chess this chance is somewhere between "possibility of happening equal to 0" and "thats a prank, right?". What im trying to say: if instead of running LH/LN you're thinking "i'm too cool to join lower difficulty so i i'll join r1 and i don't care if they want me or not - well, i agree players attitude sometimes is wrong, but i suggest you thinking a bit if your own is flawless.

PS: in literally every game in the world players will experience exclusion. From time to time i play 24 years old RTS and i assure you - in majority of skirmishes they'll ban you from server without mercy if you'll not answer 10 min long survey about your skills (and i'm talking about really detailed questions that majority of players have no clue about). If you join pro game in any FPS you'll be slaughtered without mercy and banned from server, cause those players also want to have fun by competing with each other, not just grinding easy kills.

Quick summarise: if leader told you to fu** yourself and then he kicked you from party - yes, he's evil person. If he kicked you without any explanation or even simple "sorry, we need someone more experienced" - he's rude. But if he did none of such things and he just chose that he prefer someone more experienced in party running elitist content (r1 instead of lh like 90% of ghallanda players) - it's his right as a leader and in this situation there's (in my arrogant opinion) something wrong with you if now you're trying kick up a row on forum.

Did you not read the title... Is it your point to now try to slander me when I said I did not argue his decision? Maybe you failed to see what you are actually doing.

Ok so it was a raid and the. Leader didn't want some one new.... Ok as I have said I am not arguing that. I am arguing the attitude I received. My whole point of this thread was to get people to think about the way we treat people. Specially when they are being open and honest. It's not about my gear past lives and epic destinies that some one asked about. It's about where the server is headed when we treat people poorly.

Your insults to my character only prove what I have been saying. Did I name you? Did I say I deserve something better than respect as a person? The only goal I have is either a better server for all. Your attitude towards me for something that had nothing to do with you. What was the intention you had? To push another player away from playing with you? Look, you can either accept that people want to be treated with respect. Or, you can play with less and less people because they got tired of the disrespectful way they were treated.

We are not playing that FPS game most likely because all those jerks you talk about play it.