Every reason why Update 49 is a disaster

[Marshal_Lannes]

You're attributing changes made in U48 to the changes made in U49. This is called "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" or "after this therefore because of this" even though these are clearly and provably not related. Spell damage changes in U48 neither necessitated nor were impacted by the nerf to bow attack speeds nor the doublestrike/shot changes.

They go to the point I have been consistently been making. Build viability has increased over the last two updates and despite some players calling doom over U48, it turns out not only have more builds been made viable because of it, but almost everyone likes U48 now. Imagine only a few months ago we were all forced to wear the same belt and play only two casting classes! It's the same thing here. A few people are loudly calling doom for U49, but once everyone actually plays with the changes they will realize how much extra DPS they have and most people are going to like the update.

do you consider your answers...comprehensive?!

Yes.

[Ulfo]

My Inquisitor build is still doing just peachy with either getting the "non-viable" no DC check Nerve Venom and the no DC check CC capstone. That's no even counting the other weapon procs I switch through.

Lolwut, you seriously? Well, sorry, my Shiradi Shuri-thrower and my AA-Ranger cannot hold primary weapon in both hand, like your Inquisitor, what double your proc rate already, and cannot use No Holds Barred for transform your Crossbow into modern submachine gun Ingram with gazzilion multiple proc chance. If you wanna correct equation, just use Great Crossbow without No Holds Barred and say after, how your build still viable.

Seriously, guy, your ridiculous example makes me doubt either your mental health or your desire to have a productive discussion, sorry. Don't be a banal troll like the one I quote below.

We all have acknowledged cheeky throwing builds have been nerfed. You illustrate exactly why these adjustments were needed. "Oh, I'm tossing ninja stars while holding Celestia for procs while abusing doubleshot and proc rate for the win!" I mean, yes, I think that should have been adjusted as I don't find this realistic or working as designed. I'm glad it was fixed. I understand it perfectly well.

Here no exploit or abuse just because thrower builds was use WAI mechanics, and low damage profile for shurikens/daggers clearly mean it's not pure DD builds, they used high proc rate with equipment, just unviable in any other condition, for utility or diversity.

And... above you can see example from Inquisitor user, who have much better proc rate than any nerfed thrower-builds. You mean, it's all right while thrower-builds OP? 8)

Sorry for my bad Engrish, not native for me.

[Weemadarthur]

1) - so not really nerfed at all per your own analysis
2) - has their effectiveness been cut 25-75% when compared with their increased DPS from revamped ranged feats? Better rethink that calculation.
3) - tanks are no longer realistic? That's not my ingame experience at all.

So as you think these answers are comprehensive please explain the huge gaps that you have in your counter arguments.

1) 8 levels where you will do significantly less damage is a nerf albeit a rather small one. I'm not claiming its game breaking or even a bad decision just that the loss of dps is there and it is sizable. This remember as I stated was the least harmful of the impacted 3 builds and was only put in as an example thereof. 8 levels of less damage is still a nerf though.

2) So your response to how a ranged build specifically designed for CC and NOT DPS was nerfed is to say it does more dps? Yeah that really answered that rofl.

3) Now to this response I just have to ask can you read? Did the fact that I used the word tank confuse you and make you unable to process the rest of the sentence? Lets try again without using the word tank. LOW DPS TACTICAL MELEE. Is that better?

So no your answers were not comprehensive. For 2 of the 3 they weren't even answers.

[Karthunk]

Lolwut, you seriously? Well, sorry, my Shiradi Shuri-thrower and my AA-Ranger cannot hold primary weapon in both hand, like your Inquisitor, what double your proc rate already, and cannot use No Holds Barred for transform your Crossbow into modern submachine gun Ingram with gazzilion multiple proc chance. If you wanna correct equation, just use Great Crossbow without No Holds Barred and say after, how your build still viable.

Seriously, guy, your ridiculous example makes me doubt either your mental health or your desire to have a productive discussion, sorry. Don't be a banal troll like the one I quote below.



Here no exploit or abuse just because thrower builds was use WAI mechanics, and low damage profile for shurikens/daggers clearly mean it's not pure DD builds, they used high proc rate with equipment, just unviable in any other condition, for utility or diversity.

And... above you can see example from Inquisitor user, who have much better proc rate than any nerfed thrower-builds. You mean, it's all right while thrower-builds OP? 8)

Sorry for my bad Engrish, not native for me.

You can have no holds barred with a Great Crossbow rogue, it's called endless fusilade.

Did you also miss the part where the Great Crossbow starts off at lvl 1 with the Inquisitive capstone knockdown? That's a 5% chance per hit to do a no DC knock down.

As far as productive discussions, the changes aren't being reversed.

[Marshal_Lannes]

As far as productive discussions, the changes aren't being reversed.

They aren't, and I understand some people need to vent. However, not too long ago I heard people bemoaning how their Clerics were no longer viable because they couldn't reach 1000 positive spell power with the belt nerf. Then, a month later, we have posts on the forums complaining about how OP Clerics are. You see, sometimes the tree can obscure the forest. So maybe instead of worrying about whether or not your AA ranger can paralyze the whole screen, perhaps take a look at what else he can now do. You might be surprised, and I can almost promise we will have posts in a few weeks complaining about how OP rangers are. Was in a DoJ tonight where a ranger dominated the KC and this was in a group with several winged characters. He doubled everyone else. Yeah, yeah, I get it, one example but there are going to be a lot more rolling out as people actually play the new build opportunities.

[Artos_Fabril]

I don't think it's meant to be a setup to sell Horizon Walker; maybe they'll try to put proc related things in it because that's suddenly what the game is lacking, but as far as I'm aware it was intended to be a sort of bow tree, and the devs stated that the reason they're not releasing it with the bow pass is so they can make sure it doesn't super overtune bows/become necessary for bows to be viable. Even if it does become a proc centered tree, that gives procs back some of their relevance (assuming there is a way to do that without exacerbating the problems that U49 meant to alleviate), is having a little of that build diversity back a bad thing?

There's no reason to make it a proc centered tree. To sell horizon walker they'd want give it on-order special attacks that replicate the effects of procs that are no longer a reliable way to produce those effects, probably some bow attack speed because currently bows at the attainable standing value of +25% alacrity are attacking slower than they were pre U49, a "fan of knives" type bow attack for hitting packs of mobs, some raw damage because of course raw damage, a favored enemy (choose type of outsider) for flavor, a windwalk in lieu of Misty Step, some force damage, and if they really think it won't move sales on the merits, a dex trance to make it a required purchase for min maxing and high reaper.

[Artos_Fabril]

Then, a month later, we have posts on the forums complaining about how OP Clerics are.

4 of those posts are from a single player who's still whining about not being able to cast meteor storm 10 times a minute.

[Ausdoerrt]

Was in a DoJ tonight where a ranger dominated the KC and this was in a group with several winged characters. He doubled everyone else. Yeah, yeah, I get it, one example but there are going to be a lot more rolling out as people actually play the new build opportunities.

Any feedback / complaints based on kill counts are hogwash. I've had absolute gimps (of my making) leading kill counts in groups with far better toons just by virtue of ability (and some skill from the likes of DOTA) of last-hitting. And bow rangers are masters of last-hitting if you put your mind to it.

4 of those posts are from a single player who's still whining about not being able to cast meteor storm 10 times a minute.

And comparing build power at level 10 on E / R1, yea.

I can tell you, I'm trying a DPS cleric, and while effective it's by no means overpowering. It's not up to the level of SS bard in heroics, and feels more clunky than my recent FvS Vistani life. First few levels were a torture, then it gets a bit better, at around 9 when you can get your domain spell and / or Holy Smite SLA you start clearing rooms sure, but it's still a one-trick pony and mana pool is still an issue. Plus, damage starts falling off even as low as R3, and I can see the build starting to struggle again as low as level 13~15 quests.

[Peter_Principle]

Imagine only a few months ago we were all forced to wear the same belt

Yeah, just like everyone is forced to keep their original hands, instead of cutting their hands off and using the wide variety of prosthetics available.

Who thinks this way? This is the goofiest reasoning. Everyone wore the belt because it was the best choice for dps casting. You didn't have a choice in belts because the devs didn't give us more options for Enhancement spell power.

[Weemadarthur]

I won't dispute the reduced build diversity, though AA cc should be one of the things that still works fine as long as you specifically build for it because it's a 100% chance to happen proc with a dc, unlike so many other procs people use that have less than a 100% chance to proc.

I don't think it's meant to be a setup to sell Horizon Walker; maybe they'll try to put proc related things in it because that's suddenly what the game is lacking, but as far as I'm aware it was intended to be a sort of bow tree, and the devs stated that the reason they're not releasing it with the bow pass is so they can make sure it doesn't super overtune bows/become necessary for bows to be viable. Even if it does become a proc centered tree, that gives procs back some of their relevance (assuming there is a way to do that without exacerbating the problems that U49 meant to alleviate), is having a little of that build diversity back a bad thing?

The problem with AA DC's is that they were kept intentionally low so that the fact that you had multiple chances of it going off with double shot didn't make it stupidly OP. The issue now is that the DC's are still just as low but you only get the 1 chance at a slower rate for the effects to land. This is what I was referring to in a previous post when I said my character had completely dropped dps in favor of CC as pre U49 he was still able to paralyze mobs most of the time and then it was just down to player skill in getting the mobs nicely lined up to take advantage of it. As I also stated previously it would still be possible to level my ranger but it is now a slow hard chore that is not by any measure fun.

In regards to horizon walker I agree that the current changes are in no way a nefarious scheme to try and sell the next big shiney. I also fully support the fact the devs have held back the HW release till the dust has settled on the current changes (I actually specifically asked for this when HW was 1st announced). This is giving me a little hope in regards to HW (which I envision being similar to DWS with some nice bonuses to both bows and melee rather than a purely archery based tree) as hopefully they can now fine tune it so it wont be game breaking at release but can instead open up options for other classes to utilize bows on a level with the current ranger. I doubt very much if it will be a proc centered tree due to the current changes but with a little thought I do believe that there is still plenty they could do to make it an effective and diverse option without making it a must have option. Here's hoping anyway :P

[Weemadarthur]

You can have no holds barred with a Great Crossbow rogue, it's called endless fusilade.

Errrrrm when did rogues get EF? If you mean by taking 4 levels of Arty that means you lose out on the +2 crit multiplier on GXB's at rog core 18 which I would say is pretty much the only reason to even consider using a GXB instead of going inquis. Just because it is possible to do something doesn't mean its actually a sensible option.

[kanordog]

Errrrrm when did rogues get EF? If you mean by taking 4 levels of Arty that means you lose out on the +2 crit multiplier on GXB's at rog core 18 which I would say is pretty much the only reason to even consider using a GXB instead of going inquis. Just because it is possible to do something doesn't mean its actually a sensible option.

I already figured that some people play a different game. The ones that play DDO that had builds nerfed in u48.4-u49 and those who play a DDO without nerfs. Obviously losing a +2 crit multiplier is not an issue in nonerfs-DDO. Do you wonder why players of nonerfs-DDO will never see how raid builds became bank toons is a bad thing?

[Karthunk]

Errrrrm when did rogues get EF? If you mean by taking 4 levels of Arty that means you lose out on the +2 crit multiplier on GXB's at rog core 18 which I would say is pretty much the only reason to even consider using a GXB instead of going inquis. Just because it is possible to do something doesn't mean its actually a sensible option.

There are quite a few builds that are rogue splits that get access to endless fusilade and they do amazing.

The base dmg of the great xbow is greater and it gets the inquisitive cap stone knockdown at lvl 1. Inquisitors also have to wait till lvl 12 to pick up no holds barred while rogue/arti can pick it up at lvl 6.

If we are going to get into the discussion of which build is better end game my response would be: does it even matter at the moment? In the current state of the game everything dies so **** fast, even reaper 10 mobs are utterly melted by a properly reaper leveled crew, that one build being 10% more damage than build number two just doesn't matter.

This game used to be about using resources responsibly and everyone sticking together, but now we are all super men/women who use shrines just to get our clickies/action boosts back.

[ned_ellis]

There are quite a few builds that are rogue splits that get access to endless fusilade and they do amazing.

The base dmg of the great xbow is greater and it gets the inquisitive cap stone knockdown at lvl 1. Inquisitors also have to wait till lvl 12 to pick up no holds barred while rogue/arti can pick it up at lvl 6.

If we are going to get into the discussion of which build is better end game my response would be: does it even matter at the moment? In the current state of the game everything dies so **** fast, even reaper 10 mobs are utterly melted by a properly reaper leveled crew, that one build being 10% more damage than build number two just doesn't matter.

This game used to be about using resources responsibly and everyone sticking together, but now we are all super men/women who use shrines just to get our clickies/action boosts back.

With regards the underlined part, I find it a crying shame that most forum talk is seen through this lens - there are other levels of players in this game just fyi...

Also, do you realise that at the root of many pov's you have spent this thread arguing against is exactly the concept you are complaining about in bold?!

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Yes, as I always say, these forums are completely dominated by min-maxing R10 end game folks. They don't care about anything of the rest of the game.

[Karthunk]

With regards the underlined part, I find it a crying shame that most forum talk is seen through this lens - there are other levels of players in this game just fyi...

Also, do you realise that at the root of many pov's you have spent this thread arguing against is exactly the concept you are complaining about in bold?!

The "lens" I see the game through is our current reality; the power level of players is currently ridiculous. You would have to go out of your way to make your character where he/she doesn't fit the new class of marvel superhero.

I have argued that a power decrease is GOOD.

I was here when the game was released. People had to stick together and resources meant something. Now days... this just doesn't fell like D&D anymore.

[Weemadarthur]

The "lens" I see the game through is our current reality; the power level of players is currently ridiculous. You would have to go out of your way to make your character where he/she doesn't fit the new class of marvel superhero.

I have argued that a power decrease is GOOD.

I was here when the game was released. People had to stick together and resources meant something. Now days... this just doesn't fell like D&D anymore.

I actually find this post very interesting and at least partially agree with most of it. There is a couple of things that I think you haven't taken into account though the 1st of which was already stated before. Although I agree that power levels have increased well beyond content difficulty as Ned said there is a huge gap between new/returning player power and vet power. So although I agree in principle with the superhero metaphore you have used this is more of a case of potentially being true rather than actually being true.

I regularly meet players that still struggle with hard difficulty (helping those get to the point they are ready to start their reaper journey is kind of my thing). Of all those I have met (which is probably in the higher triple figures) only a handful were unable to "get good" enough to handle reaper 1 once given a little help in regards to build, gearing and gameplay tactics. This I would say is proof of the concept at least that you are correct in regards to almost all players being able to reach if not Thor/Captain Marvel levels of power at least Daredevil status.

I also agree that decreasing power would be a good thing (or at the very least establishing a benchmark of what is supposed to be average). The issue here though is that these latest changes havent actually achieved this rather its moved the power firmly into the 1 field of dps.

In short the latest changes have made all niche low dps builds worse while leaving the majority of dps builds at least comparable to where they were and in some cases improved. So the defacto result is now more power creep to 1 type of play (DPS) even if through proxy while making any other form of play sub par. This is bad for build diversity, widens the already major power gap between vets and new players and most importantly didn't do enough to resolve the lag issues which for a lot of the playerbase are still as bad as before the update.

[ned_ellis]

The "lens" I see the game through is our current reality; the power level of players is currently ridiculous. You would have to go out of your way to make your character where he/she doesn't fit the new class of marvel superhero.

I have argued that a power decrease is GOOD.

I was here when the game was released. People had to stick together and resources meant something. Now days... this just doesn't fell like D&D anymore.

I agree with a power decrease too, but that is not what many are discussing with regards U49.
You see, a simple power decrease would be easy - remove the zeros so when we hit for 1k hp we actually hit for 1 - but you do realise the 'feel' of the game would be very similar?
Now, build dversity, that some of us bemoan especially with regards to U49 (it is not just U49 but a general trend in the last...years?) is a different beast entirely and, for someone who would claim what I have bolded in your comment, I would have expected you to understand - maybe even champion! - the viewpoint you have been discussing against in this thread...
I suppose procs were a good vehicule for dps-diversity which is why this update hurt more than others but, in general, we actually have a very similar viewpoint on the game in general!

[Tsutti]

I already figured that some people play a different game. The ones that play DDO that had builds nerfed in u48.4-u49 and those who play a DDO without nerfs. Obviously losing a +2 crit multiplier is not an issue in nonerfs-DDO. Do you wonder why players of nonerfs-DDO will never see how raid builds became bank toons is a bad thing?

I think a more accurate representation is that those who play DDO with nerfs are those who focus on the bad and complain that their builds suck, and probably end up sticking with their build/build concept even when it's nerfed; and those who play DDO without nerfs are those who focus on the good and move with the meta, not really staying with one build but playing whatever's good. People who play whatever's good are more likely to focus on the new shiny thing where people who love a particular style or build concept and mostly play that thing are more likely to focus on changes to their build. Although, I guess that a lot of people who are playing whatever's good also complain when it's nerfed lol, probably before they realize that something else got buffed or before they actually try whatever got buffed.

Both styles are viable, I see people do both, I'm a bit more in the "play whatever's good" category atm because that's how I enjoy the game most. It makes me feel powerful and useful in groups and it makes for more diversity in what I play (I think I'd get bored playing the same thing all the time, personally).

[acemonkey]

Both styles are viable, I see people do both, I'm a bit more in the "play whatever's good" category atm because that's how I enjoy the game most. It makes me feel powerful and useful in groups and it makes for more diversity in what I play (I think I'd get bored playing the same thing all the time, personally).

Both styles aren’t viable. DDO pushes their TR design to make money, but people who come to DDO thinking it’s DND tend to replicate what they enjoyed roleplaying, their favorite pen and paper character, or an archetype, or a fictional character they enjoyed like Drizz, Legolas, Raistlin, or w/e. You can tell them that they’re only clearing missions at half the speed on a lower difficulty because they aren’t playing the meta, but they didn’t come for the meta, they came because DDO is falsely pitched as an RPG, but really punishes roleplay in favor of rewriting your character every few weeks chasing after tiny bonuses or rewriting your character to a godmode ptw build, because monetized roleplay is apparently a less compelling product than what SSG is selling.