Every reason why Update 49 is a disaster

[Soulfurnace]

Nope. I will however say I feel U49 was a huge blow against any tactical build and a further push towards DPS being the only solution yet again. Note that for most players DPS is at worst similar to before the changes. For those that were looking at alternatives to DPS and were relying on tactical effects like stuns, trips, paralizing, etc no balancing was considered.

Nerve venom/5% chance of knockdown aren't tactical choices. They're boring and 0 effort.

Want a ranged stun, ask for one. Then slot some stunning gear. Work on a trance stat. Do what a melee does for CC.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Lets get specific. Which procs were game breaking?

What specific loophole was closed?

Cheeky throwing builds used to CC high-level reaper content. TWF fighting builds that required you to off-hand a LGS weapon (note TWF, in general, was buffed universally in U49, the reliance on specific weapon types was done away with). 10K stars, which in the feat description is meant for throwing weapons, being removed from bows which should have been done a decade ago. You'll notice nearly all the ranged changes were targeted at reducing the efficiency of high RoF, high proc builds that overwhelmed the combat system both from a lag and mechanics standpoint. Now, this doesn't mean these builds are destroyed, it simply means they are now performing as expected in relation to other characters.

[Aelonwy]

Nerve venom/5% chance of knockdown aren't tactical choices. They're boring and 0 effort.

Want a ranged stun, ask for one. Then slot some stunning gear. Work on a trance stat. Do what a melee does for CC.

What he is talking about are procs like Nerve Venom which were, and still are, completely busted.

Are you seriously complaining about throwing builds and monkchers being nerfed? Hopefully this is the first in a series of nerfs targeting those "cheat" builds.

This opinion that procs like Nerve Venom were cheating is patently absurd. Specifically because players didn't add them into the game. The devs did. Players were playing with legitimate options. Its fine for you to support them getting nerfed, even gloat about it, because you didn't like them or other players having them but they weren't cheating. Its equally fine for the players that used and enjoyed them to complain about their usefulness being nerfed. Again, they were legitimate character build choices whether you liked it or not.

No Nerve Venom was NOT a tactical choice and no it doesn't have a save, because it is random you cannot predict or depend on it going off much like most everything else in Shiradi. There are many procs in this game without a save, and most of them AFAIK are entirely random such as Disintegration, Enervation Guard, Radiance Guard and Greater Disruption Guard from Greensteel, Invis Guard, Meteoric Ruby's Knockdown, etc. Northwind has no save, only goes off on a vorpal, that's a melee effect.

My opinion is they probably need to scrap Shiradi or change it entirely so that its theme isn't Random. Make it all about ranged, give ranged some options for changing element or material type of ammo, give ranged more options that stack with existing heroic options, reduce the hope for random results nonsense that just got kicked in the nethers. Give a short AOE burst ranged attack similar to the fan of knives.

[tinyelvis]

I was looking forward to playing my Monk/Ranger build and when I saw they had eliminated 10k... it demoralized me and my game play time has suffered.

I then thought it might be cool to try an elven wiz arcane archer using a morning lord, but of course then I would have to shell out 20 bucks or so to swap the useless cleric level out. Again, I lost interest and did things other than DDO.

I may try out the new bow changes using an elven abomination (i.e. pale master) build. However, my VIP membership just expired. Maybe, I will be inspired this weekend to renew it and try then.

I mentioned this before in another post, but there sure seems to be a lot of negative reinforcement to play lately.

[Xgya]

This opinion that procs like Nerve Venom were cheating is patently absurd. Specifically because players didn't add them into the game. The devs did. Players were playing with legitimate options. Its fine for you to support them getting nerfed, even gloat about it, because you didn't like them or other players having them but they weren't cheating. Its equally fine for the players that used and enjoyed them to complain about their usefulness being nerfed. Again, they were legitimate character build choices whether you liked it or not.

No Nerve Venom was NOT a tactical choice and no it doesn't have a save, because it is random you cannot predict or depend on it going off much like most everything else in Shiradi. There are many procs in this game without a save, and most of them AFAIK are entirely random such as Disintegration, Enervation Guard, Radiance Guard and Greater Disruption Guard from Greensteel, Invis Guard, Meteoric Ruby's Knockdown, etc. Northwind has no save, only goes off on a vorpal, that's a melee effect.

My opinion is they probably need to scrap Shiradi or change it entirely so that its theme isn't Random. Make it all about ranged, give ranged some options for changing element or material type of ammo, give ranged more options that stack with existing heroic options, reduce the hope for random results nonsense that just got kicked in the nethers. Give a short AOE burst ranged attack similar to the fan of knives.

The main point is that doubleshot got buffed MILES ahead since the introduction of those seemingly random effects. To the point you could now use them with very little variance - THAT was the issue. It now got its original randomness back. ALL of those effects did.
They hit Chain Missiles for that very reason.

Legitimate choices? Yes. Working as originally intended? Nope. That was the "cheat", and the reason this word is put in quotes.

I do agree "random" isn't a very interesting or a very meaningful theme, and hopefully the Shiradi rework gives us something more to work with.

[Marshal_Lannes]

No Nerve Venom was NOT a tactical choice and no it doesn't have a save, because it is random you cannot predict or depend on it going off much like most everything else in Shiradi.

That's sort of the issue people have with the builds. Players were able to exploit doubleshot/attack speed enhancements that came post-Shirdi which effectively removed the random proc rate of these effects because they were hitting so often. It is clear that some players relied upon the effect going off (instead of it being truly random as you indicate) because they are claiming the builds are destroyed now that the random proc effect doesn't go off enough to be reliable. I agree that the Shiradi tree should be redone reflecting the new changes.

[slarden]

Nerve venom/5% chance of knockdown aren't tactical choices. They're boring and 0 effort.

Want a ranged stun, ask for one. Then slot some stunning gear. Work on a trance stat. Do what a melee does for CC.

Something like dire charge for ranged is definitely needed right now. Perhaps it can be a slow effect rather than a stun.

I think alot of this perspective is based on what builds people run and what size party they group with.

This change will have virtually no impact on 6-person groups which are already stomping R10 with easy buttons like LGS debuffers, raid weapons with built in debuffs, salt and other tools much more powerful than these procs. for our 3 person high reaper static group it's a net positive as we aren't relying on proc math at all and the dps of our ranger 20 bow dps player was great before and amazing now.

For someone soloing that relied on the math of multiple low chance procs combined with many chances to proc is certainly significantly impacted by this.

From the perspective of fairness it certainly doesn't seem fair, but these changes weren't made for balance reasons or to bring down op builds - it was done for performance reasons and there are clearly winners and losers. The devs should have simply acknowledged this by passing out btc lesser +20 hearts instead of minimizing the problem.

[Aelonwy]

That's sort of the issue people have with the builds. Players were able to exploit doubleshot/attack speed enhancements that came post-Shirdi which effectively removed the random proc rate of these effects because they were hitting so often. It is clear that some players relied upon the effect going off (instead of it being truly random as you indicate) because they are claiming the builds are destroyed now that the random proc effect doesn't go off enough to be reliable. I agree that the Shiradi tree should be redone reflecting the new changes.

? While I don't use action boosts for the most part because I prefer steady "always on" versus save it for "Oh-shoot" moments which I invariably rarely have I just don't think of using enhancements as they were meant to be used (e.g. your example enhancements that give attack speed and doubleshot and therefor increase attack speed and doubleshot) as exploits. Those things were doing what they were intended to do, and if they went beyond an unknown maximum arbitrary line in the sand then I see it as up to the devs to adjust it. It helps when they are transparent about the value of that arbitrary line in the sand.

We shouldn't be using the words exploit or cheating for anything we subjectively disapprove of, only for those things that are truly breaking the rules such as duping, the saga XP thing, the sort of things that gets people rightfully banned.

I disapprove of gambling with astral shards on daily dice, I don't call doing it and leveling on HC with it an exploit. Its a slot machine that does what it is meant to do.

Using such language inappropriately is biased and consciously or subconsciously meant to bias other readers to that opinion.

[myliftkk_v2]

Something like dire charge for ranged is definitely needed right now. Perhaps it can be a slow effect rather than a stun.

I think alot of this perspective is based on what builds people run and what size party they group with.

This change will have virtually no impact on 6-person groups which are already stomping R10 with easy buttons like LGS debuffers, raid weapons with built in debuffs, salt and other tools much more powerful than these procs. for our 3 person high reaper static group it's a net positive as we aren't relying on proc math at all and the dps of our ranger 20 bow dps player was great before and amazing now.

For someone soloing that relied on the math of multiple low chance procs combined with many chances to proc is certainly significantly impacted by this.

From the perspective of fairness it certainly doesn't seem fair, but these changes weren't made for balance reasons or to bring down op builds - it was done for performance reasons and there are clearly winners and losers. The devs should have simply acknowledged this by passing out btc lesser +20 hearts instead of minimizing the problem.

Ummm, they can just get rid of dire charge and put melee back to single target stunning they should have always been.

[Coffey]

Using such language inappropriately is biased and consciously or subconsciously meant to bias other readers to that opinion.

So very true. WAI is WAI.

[myliftkk_v2]

Cheeky throwing builds used to CC high-level reaper content. TWF fighting builds that required you to off-hand a LGS weapon (note TWF, in general, was buffed universally in U49, the reliance on specific weapon types was done away with). 10K stars, which in the feat description is meant for throwing weapons, being removed from bows which should have been done a decade ago. You'll notice nearly all the ranged changes were targeted at reducing the efficiency of high RoF, high proc builds that overwhelmed the combat system both from a lag and mechanics standpoint. Now, this doesn't mean these builds are destroyed, it simply means they are now performing as expected in relation to other characters.

Ummm, exactly what makes those builds "cheeky", because 2 or 3 people did not do things your way (since this all seems to come down to "some" people playing a way you dislike)? There was certainly no massive amount of throwers on any server I consistently played on.

Realize we all had far less lag when tons of people were running Shiradi missile builds (because some of us were playing from the moment MoTU dropped) and higher game pop... so the whole premise Shiradi builds were the problem I find highly/extremely questionable. This Nerve Venom hate (which is silly because I often liked FoTW for my thrower) is just a case of "I don't like it, so I'll make up a reason".

I find far less questionable the idea that a ton of melee running around using dire charge was the problem. Certainly that should be changed to single target, I think we can all agree.

[Karthunk]

This opinion that procs like Nerve Venom were cheating is patently absurd. Specifically because players didn't add them into the game. The devs did. Players were playing with legitimate options. Its fine for you to support them getting nerfed, even gloat about it, because you didn't like them or other players having them but they weren't cheating. Its equally fine for the players that used and enjoyed them to complain about their usefulness being nerfed. Again, they were legitimate character build choices whether you liked it or not.

No Nerve Venom was NOT a tactical choice and no it doesn't have a save, because it is random you cannot predict or depend on it going off much like most everything else in Shiradi. There are many procs in this game without a save, and most of them AFAIK are entirely random such as Disintegration, Enervation Guard, Radiance Guard and Greater Disruption Guard from Greensteel, Invis Guard, Meteoric Ruby's Knockdown, etc. Northwind has no save, only goes off on a vorpal, that's a melee effect.

My opinion is they probably need to scrap Shiradi or change it entirely so that its theme isn't Random. Make it all about ranged, give ranged some options for changing element or material type of ammo, give ranged more options that stack with existing heroic options, reduce the hope for random results nonsense that just got kicked in the nethers. Give a short AOE burst ranged attack similar to the fan of knives.

When you have 3-4 procs that have a 5-7% chance of going off and players, such as inquisitive builds, fire like machine guns the random nature of procs is moot. At some point you oversaturate the probability to the point that something IS going to happen 100%, within a very small frame of time.

[Karthunk]

Ummm, exactly what makes those builds "cheeky", because 2 or 3 people did not do things your way (since this all seems to come down to "some" people playing a way you dislike)? There was certainly no massive amount of throwers on any server I consistently played on.

Realize we all had far less lag when tons of people were running Shiradi missile builds (because some of us were playing from the moment MoTU dropped) and higher game pop... so the whole premise Shiradi builds were the problem I find highly/extremely questionable. This Nerve Venom hate (which is silly because I often liked FoTW for my thrower) is just a case of "I don't like it, so I'll make up a reason".

I find far less questionable the idea that a ton of melee running around using dire charge was the problem. Certainly that should be changed to single target, I think we can all agree.

I don't hate nerve venom being in the game, but what I do dislike are abilities being left unchecked for way too long when they are clearly overperforming. Either the rate that it was going off needed to be reduced, which happened, or it needed a DC.

[Kielbasa]

Cheeky throwing builds used to CC high-level reaper content. TWF fighting builds that required you to off-hand a LGS weapon (note TWF, in general, was buffed universally in U49, the reliance on specific weapon types was done away with). 10K stars, which in the feat description is meant for throwing weapons, being removed from bows which should have been done a decade ago. You'll notice nearly all the ranged changes were targeted at reducing the efficiency of high RoF, high proc builds that overwhelmed the combat system both from a lag and mechanics standpoint. Now, this doesn't mean these builds are destroyed, it simply means they are now performing as expected in relation to other characters.

There are many abilities and classes that do not scale well into end game or reaper play. On hit cc was the way a fair bit of people coped with this game design failure. Clearly you do not like this style of play but there are many people who enjoyed it and dislike the changes to their preferred style of combat.

I'm fine if the devs wanted to improve game performance but they need to give something back in the form of better active cc abilities for classes without a trance to combat tactics. Or they need improved damage mitigation that is not subverted by reaper mode. In heroics things are fine but once you get to epic levels dc disparity widens for some classes until its well beyond the d20 differential. That surely must make things at level 30 very hard to balance. Just look at what dcs are needed in ravenloft compared to sharn compared to feywild. Specifically the problem stems from allowing to hit, damage and trance bonus to tactics all to scale off the same stat. And that is just on the melee end of things.

I'm sure if you look at casters things are similarly out of wack with some abilities falling off a cliff in epics and beyond due to no scaling support. The Lack of caster level/max caster level for spells that worked just great for 2/3 of the game. As well as the classes that can most effectively utilize Magister vs those that cannot.

[Xgya]

Realize we all had far less lag when tons of people were running Shiradi missile builds (because some of us were playing from the moment MoTU dropped) and higher game pop... so the whole premise Shiradi builds were the problem I find highly/extremely questionable.

They DID have to nerf Chain Missiles within a very short span of time of those builds becoming popular though.
The builds weren't overperforming at the time, and were VERY specialized at what they did (nobody ever goes 10/10 Wiz/Sorc anymore), yet still got hit with the nerf bat.
At least the effects queue acting up now gives us a fair explanation of why a build that wasn't considered overpowered got hit by the nerf bat that hard.

[myliftkk_v2]

When you have 3-4 procs that have a 5-7% chance of going off and players, such as inquisitive builds, fire like machine guns the random nature of procs is moot. At some point you oversaturate the probability to the point that something IS going to happen 100%, within a very small frame of time.

So the problem is the nerve venom or machine guns? Also, thrower builds are not inquisitives.

[myliftkk_v2]

They DID have to nerf Chain Missiles within a very short span of time of those builds becoming popular though.
The builds weren't overperforming at the time, and were VERY specialized at what they did (nobody ever goes 10/10 Wiz/Sorc anymore), yet still got hit with the nerf bat.
At least the effects queue acting up now gives us a fair explanation of why a build that wasn't considered overpowered got hit by the nerf bat that hard.

They got hit with the nerf bat because of lag? That is nonsense. They got nerfed because people didn't like others playing them and taking their kills. They performed well, very well, at the time. I ran with a lot of people who had missile builds. Lag was not an issue.

This crew didn't even know the effects queue bottleneck was ever a problem until literally year 14 of this game. Let's avoid re-writing history by imagining the devs knew things then they were most certainly clear about not knowing until now. So there's no backwards justifying that earlier Shiradi decision under the premise that Turbine/SSG even knew an effects queue existed.

[myliftkk_v2]

I don't hate nerve venom being in the game, but what I do dislike are abilities being left unchecked for way too long when they are clearly overperforming. Either the rate that it was going off needed to be reduced, which happened, or it needed a DC.

One person's "over-performing" is another's "critical ability". There is no science behind asking for nerfs. It's always simply one group asking the refs to change play for another group because they dislike the way the other group is playing.

There is no play "standard" for DDO to be over or under against. There's only subjective opinions informed by players self-regard for their own personal playstyles as superior and thus they argue as such with the refs to privilege the same.

To wit, by the same token that Nerve Venom was "over"-performing I could claim Dire Charge is "over"-performing and additionally argue that no such effects queue clogging lag existed when group CC rested with casters and bards and there was an appropriate investment required to make them stick. I also had zero problems playing a high flying dark stunning monk during that same era.

[superevbully]

Care to share your amount of dodge, incorp and concealment and what level of reaper you are running at?

Lololol this is excatly what i thought after reading that rubbish ...lol ee ahhaha

[fatherpirate]

I have come to the conclusion on what the 'nearly' perfect mmorpg would be like.

It would have the sandbox features of SWG
The combat mechanics of DDO
The map of LOTRO
The art of NWO
The huge player base of WOW

but that is me