Every reason why Update 49 is a disaster

[Ulfo]

You can play proc builds, they are just balanced now.

Sorry, you just don't understand about you talk. Remove yours fanboy blinders and try play your "now balanced proc build" before say such nonsense. 8)

Incineration? What build is based on incineration?

All thrower builds who use off-hand weapon to 2% AoE proc, like Celestia for Fiery Detonation and Greater SunBurst, ToEE martial weapon for 4 AoE effects, Alchemical and Legendary Alchemical and, of course, LGS. Furthermore, all proc-chanced augments for main hand weapon like Meteoric Star Ruby or Ruby of the Endless Night after U49 just non-viable. Nerve Venom have 7% proc-rate... and almost non-viable too.

Too fate... You can do better, try, I believe in you!

[Weemadarthur]

Yes, let's dive into this since you seem to be concerned about the lack of build viability. What are these Vorpal/PK/Bleed builds? Vorpals are nice around the harbor, but you don't have any doublestrike then anyway, so they are unaffected by the changes. No one uses Vorpals after low-level heroics because there is a HP cap to what they kill and so, these effects really haven't been altered at all. PK is the exact same thing unless we are in a time machine back to 2011 and everyone is swinging Terror around. Incineration? What build is based on incineration? Looks like we are back to the two builds which were altered because all the DPS builds you're grasping for were actually buffed since they now can score massive critical hits.

O.K. as you seem to be having huge problems understanding what people are telling you here I will give a few example builds that these changes were a nerf to.

1) The adrenaline using FOTW barb from level 20-28. Adrenaline has had its damage cut in half so quite literally does 50% of the damage it used to. At 29/30 this isnt really an issue as you can get near 100% DS to mitigate the damage loss with the new DS double damage. From 20-28 though where most players will have 50-60% DS only that means you only have a 50-60% chance of doing the same damage. I will add though that this is mitigated by the new proc rate of the adrenaline regen that makes this an almost spammable ability. So 50/50 overall not a huge impact as lower damage but more often kinda balances out. I added this one purely as a least effected but still effected example.

2) Para specced bow ranger. For those that played rangers for their CC ability as part of a group (and yes I know there were very few of these) their effectiveness has now been cut by 25-75% depending on how much double shot and what level they were playing at. The loss of extra chances to paralize (and if playing in shiradi the chances of extra effects) has been reduced by 3/4 on top end builds at cap. These builds were never dps builds so the extra damage from the DS crits doesn't help.

3) Low DPS tactical melee Tanks. This is any melee build that relied on tactical effects like stuns and trips. They have had their chances pretty much halved with no mitigation at all. This is a whole subset of melee that is no longer a realistic option and was never OP before the changes.

Now none of the above were in the slightest OP before U49 and all of them are a lot less effective after. I can list a lot more if you like plus throw in a few builds that are now purely relegated to flavor builds. The ones I have mentioned above though are all characters that I was playing before U49 and 2 of those 3 have now been shelved as are now no longer any fun to play (I dislike being carried through quests and they are no longer solo viable unlike before).

[Artos_Fabril]

all the DPS builds you're grasping for were actually buffed since they now can score massive critical hits.

1) massive crits != DPS
2) massive crits under ideal conditions against helpless and fully debuffed test kobolds that requires you to be in a public zone where you can hot swap EDs to obtain a screenshot is not a gameplay strategy
3) massive crits under stars-aligned conditions that the player has less than 25% control over is at least as likely to be massive overkill as it is to be at all helpful.

[Duskofdead]

@Aelonwy: it hasn't improved for me either. I wasn't having huge issues with the kind of lag it seems to have addressed (upon monster spawn) and the issues I was having may have actually gotten worse, yes (but I was blaming the disappearing projectile issue for that rather than overall lag: as soon as I attack a mob with a projectile for the first time, there is a mini-lag spike, it happens very, very often).

I said it has improved just based on the reports I've seen on the forum, to give some credit to the people claiming it has. It has not improved in my personal experience, that just reinforces the idea that to me personally it was absolutely not worth it to have this update. I am debating whether or not it was worth it for the majority of the playerbase, and even then, considering the reports on potentially improved lag, the answer would still be a HARD NO ^^'



1) You would have a reason to believe a "nefarious agenda" (strawman term, they have an interest in making the game simpler to handle for themselves by reducing playstyle variety, and potentially and economical interest in making it easier to push new releases like it has happened with Inquisitive, Alchemist, and is about to happen with Horizon Walker), you simply choose to ignore such reason.

2) I never said we should have left lag issues untouched, don't put words in my mouth (strawman again). I said that this update didn't even nearly help enough with the lag compared to what it has given up. Also I don't understand what stopped the devs from introducing counterbalancing solutions like stronger procs, now that they have a much lower proc chance. Higher DC for paralysis for example (even helplessness would make a lot of sense at this point), more temp HP for lifeshield, more stacks of AF or more RP per stack and so on, there are plenty of possible actions they could have taken to counterbalance the nerf but they choose not to.

Why?

3) Again you're being dishonest, starting to see a pattern here. This is NOT a physiological change for the game, that would have naturally came with controlled powercreep etc... This is a series of artificial, forced nerfs, extremely poorly justified and undermining both the game's quality and the trust we can hold in SSGs decisions/actions. Also showed a pretty big communication problem with their players. We are not opposing natural changes, nor "natural" nerfs that can happen sometimes, stop twisting it please.

Hi, like I said in my last post, if you think addressing the lag should have been put off until they could find some way to affect no build ever, we disagree. I don't know what else there is to say on that one.

There is room for them to "give power back in" to on-hit builds by adjusting for the decrease in the number of calculated hits by increasing chances of various on-hit procs. And I would imagine you are going to see exactly those kinds of changes over time.

I think the overall tone of the thread, that those of us who do not see this as treachery by the devs somehow Just Don't Get It, is silly. No, I don't think they had a secret agenda to hurt your build. Yes, I get you are mad that this change did. As I said, we've all gone through multiple cycles of this.

[Artos_Fabril]

Hi, like I said in my last post, if you think addressing the lag should have been put off until they could find some way to affect no build ever, we disagree. I don't know what else there is to say on that one.

Hi, if you think the proc nerf has had a noticeable beneficial effect in addressing lag, we disagree. I don't know what else there is to say on that one.

[Karthunk]

Sorry, you just don't understand about you talk. Remove yours fanboy blinders and try play your "now balanced proc build" before say such nonsense. 8)



All thrower builds who use off-hand weapon to 2% AoE proc, like Celestia for Fiery Detonation and Greater SunBurst, ToEE martial weapon for 4 AoE effects, Alchemical and Legendary Alchemical and, of course, LGS. Furthermore, all proc-chanced augments for main hand weapon like Meteoric Star Ruby or Ruby of the Endless Night after U49 just non-viable. Nerve Venom have 7% proc-rate... and almost non-viable too.

Too fate... You can do better, try, I believe in you!

My Inquisitor build is still doing just peachy with either getting the "non-viable" no DC check Nerve Venom and the no DC check CC capstone. That's no even counting the other weapon procs I switch through.

[Marshal_Lannes]

O.K. as you seem to be having huge problems understanding what people are telling you here I will give a few example builds that these changes were a nerf to.

1) The adrenaline using FOTW barb from level 20-28. Adrenaline has had its damage cut in half so quite literally does 50% of the damage it used to. At 29/30 this isnt really an issue as you can get near 100% DS to mitigate the damage loss with the new DS double damage. From 20-28 though where most players will have 50-60% DS only that means you only have a 50-60% chance of doing the same damage. I will add though that this is mitigated by the new proc rate of the adrenaline regen that makes this an almost spammable ability. So 50/50 overall not a huge impact as lower damage but more often kinda balances out. I added this one purely as a least effected but still effected example.

2) Para specced bow ranger. For those that played rangers for their CC ability as part of a group (and yes I know there were very few of these) their effectiveness has now been cut by 25-75% depending on how much double shot and what level they were playing at. The loss of extra chances to paralize (and if playing in shiradi the chances of extra effects) has been reduced by 3/4 on top end builds at cap. These builds were never dps builds so the extra damage from the DS crits doesn't help.

3) Low DPS tactical melee Tanks. This is any melee build that relied on tactical effects like stuns and trips. They have had their chances pretty much halved with no mitigation at all. This is a whole subset of melee that is no longer a realistic option and was never OP before the changes.

Now none of the above were in the slightest OP before U49 and all of them are a lot less effective after. I can list a lot more if you like plus throw in a few builds that are now purely relegated to flavor builds. The ones I have mentioned above though are all characters that I was playing before U49 and 2 of those 3 have now been shelved as are now no longer any fun to play (I dislike being carried through quests and they are no longer solo viable unlike before).

1) - so not really nerfed at all per your own analysis
2) - has their effectiveness been cut 25-75% when compared with their increased DPS from revamped ranged feats? Better rethink that calculation.
3) - tanks are no longer realistic? That's not my ingame experience at all.

So I'm gonna need some more examples as these don't fly.

Sorry, you just don't understand about you talk. Remove yours fanboy blinders and try play your "now balanced proc build" before say such nonsense. 8)

All thrower builds who use off-hand weapon to 2% AoE proc, like Celestia for Fiery Detonation and Greater SunBurst, ToEE martial weapon for 4 AoE effects, Alchemical and Legendary Alchemical and, of course, LGS. Furthermore, all proc-chanced augments for main hand weapon like Meteoric Star Ruby or Ruby of the Endless Night after U49 just non-viable. Nerve Venom have 7% proc-rate... and almost non-viable too.

Too fate... You can do better, try, I believe in you!

We all have acknowledged cheeky throwing builds have been nerfed. You illustrate exactly why these adjustments were needed. "Oh, I'm tossing ninja stars while holding Celestia for procs while abusing doubleshot and proc rate for the win!" I mean, yes, I think that should have been adjusted as I don't find this realistic or working as designed. I'm glad it was fixed. I understand it perfectly well.

[Artos_Fabril]

My Inquisitor build is still doing just peachy with either getting the "non-viable" no DC check Nerve Venom and the no DC check CC capstone. That's no even counting the other weapon procs I switch through.

Your inquisitive build gets twice as many chances per attack cycle to proc, and more attacks per minute than long/short bow builds. So yes, your build was less affected than the builds that were already underperforming and were allegedly supposed to be improved by the "bow pass" to prove to us that Horizon Walker wasn't being released overpowered to move sales and then nerfed later, like Artificer, Warlock, Alchemist, and Inquisitive.

We all have acknowledged cheeky throwing builds have been nerfed. You illustrate exactly why these adjustments were needed. "Oh, I'm tossing ninja stars while holding Celestia for procs while abusing doubleshot and proc rate for the win!" I mean, yes, I think that should have been adjusted as I don't find this realistic or working as designed. I'm glad it was fixed. I understand it perfectly well.

It's clear that you don't like shuriken thrower builds, but they were not trivializing content, and were not exploiting a flaw in the code (the change was to doubleshot, not to throwing weapons proccing offhand effects, and it has not been stated that was unintended behavior).

[ned_ellis]

1) - so not really nerfed at all per your own analysis
2) - has their effectiveness been cut 25-75% when compared with their increased DPS from revamped ranged feats? Better rethink that calculation.
3) - tanks are no longer realistic? That's not my ingame experience at all.

So I'm gonna need some more examples as these don't fly.



We all have acknowledged cheeky throwing builds have been nerfed. You illustrate exactly why these adjustments were needed. "Oh, I'm tossing ninja stars while holding Celestia for procs while abusing doubleshot and proc rate for the win!" I mean, yes, I think that should have been adjusted as I don't find this realistic or working as designed. I'm glad it was fixed. I understand it perfectly well.

I'm sorry but an answer of this quality is never going to advance any type of discussion in any field what-so-ever - the examples he gave, you clearly did not read or comprehend!
If I had to guess, it was for similar reasons highlighted in your shuri comment...bias.

[Marshal_Lannes]

the examples he gave, you clearly did not read or comprehend!

Asked and answered above.

It doesn't matter whether or not I like throwing builds (I don't) or where I think they should be on the DPS scale (at the bottom) I am specifically addressing this claim that builds diversity has been reduced in DDO. It hasn't. U48 and U49 have contributed a net increase to build diversity. Or viability if that's the word some people want to use. Further, just because a build (thrower) can no longer proc enough to be considered R8+ viable doesn't mean it's not a viable build. R10 was supposed to be impossible and yet every day anyone can join a PUG R8+ group. If certain abilities are being scaled back to reduce the completion time/method of high-level reaper that is working as intended as far as I'm concerned. Regardless, that doesn't mean the build isn't viable for 99% of game content.

[salmag]

Asked and answered above.

It doesn't matter whether or not I like throwing builds (I don't) or where I think they should be on the DPS scale (at the bottom) I am specifically addressing this claim that builds diversity has been reduced in DDO. It hasn't. U48 and U49 have contributed a net increase to build diversity. Or viability if that's the word some people want to use. Further, just because a build (thrower) can no longer proc enough to be considered R8+ viable doesn't mean it's not a viable build. R10 was supposed to be impossible and yet every day anyone can join a PUG R8+ group. If certain abilities are being scaled back to reduce the completion time/method of high-level reaper that is working as intended as far as I'm concerned. Regardless, that doesn't mean the build isn't viable for 99% of game content.

Previous (pre-49) build types:

1. Builds doing pure DPS - very viable
2. Builds doing High Procs, low DPS - very viable since procs depend on multiple attacks.

After (post-49):

1. Builds doing pure DPS - still very viable, no change
2. Builds doing High Procs, low DPS - not viable anymore since proc chances reduced.

This is the reduction of build diversity people are talking about. SSG is pigeon-holing players into doing pure DPS builds and getting away from high proc (due to multiple chances) builds.
This is removing build diversity.

Sorry if you cannot see that.

Personally, I could give two hoots about DPS, especially on my Bow User mule. He was built for CC and multiple procs. Shiradi, AA, DWS. Now, he holds overflow gear.

Back on topic:
They did this in the name of reducing a certain type of lag. I still see star wars scrolling of damage, I still pause mid-battle, I still rubberband in the marketplace, etc. So, that certain type of lag still exists. On a scale of 100 (100 = lag being the worst), it may have lowered this type of lag from 100 to 95. This "bow pass and lag fix," which is looking more like just a set-up for the sale of Horizon Walker, failed miserably.

Sorry if you cannot see that, as well.

Is losing different playstyles, in a game touted as being one of the best for build diversity, worth that fix?

[Marshal_Lannes]

But there are more builds doing high DPS so again, there is a net viability increase. I can't tell you how many Artificer casters I see now. Those didn't exist for all intents and purposes pre-48. And Spellsinger has become one of the most popular classes. AA can still paralyze monsters. They just can't paralyze the entire screen now. If that makes them unplayable to you, or if you choose to turn your bow build into a mule instead of going DWS and taking advantage of the increased DPS that's your choice. All people react differently to change. That doesn't alter the fact that there is still a net plus in build diversity which will be amplified even more when Horizon Walker comes out and bows are opened up to classes beyond ranger.

[Artos_Fabril]

I can't tell you how many Artificer casters I see now. Those didn't exist for all intents and purposes pre-48. And Spellsinger has become one of the most popular classes.

You're attributing changes made in U48 to the changes made in U49. This is called "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" or "after this therefore because of this" even though these are clearly and provably not related. Spell damage changes in U48 neither necessitated nor were impacted by the nerf to bow attack speeds nor the doublestrike/shot changes.

[ned_ellis]

O.K. as you seem to be having huge problems understanding what people are telling you here I will give a few example builds that these changes were a nerf to.

1) The adrenaline using FOTW barb from level 20-28. Adrenaline has had its damage cut in half so quite literally does 50% of the damage it used to. At 29/30 this isnt really an issue as you can get near 100% DS to mitigate the damage loss with the new DS double damage. From 20-28 though where most players will have 50-60% DS only that means you only have a 50-60% chance of doing the same damage. I will add though that this is mitigated by the new proc rate of the adrenaline regen that makes this an almost spammable ability. So 50/50 overall not a huge impact as lower damage but more often kinda balances out. I added this one purely as a least effected but still effected example.

1) - so not really nerfed at all per your own analysis

2) Para specced bow ranger. For those that played rangers for their CC ability as part of a group (and yes I know there were very few of these) their effectiveness has now been cut by 25-75% depending on how much double shot and what level they were playing at. The loss of extra chances to paralize (and if playing in shiradi the chances of extra effects) has been reduced by 3/4 on top end builds at cap. These builds were never dps builds so the extra damage from the DS crits doesn't help.

2) - has their effectiveness been cut 25-75% when compared with their increased DPS from revamped ranged feats? Better rethink that calculation.

3) Low DPS tactical melee Tanks. This is any melee build that relied on tactical effects like stuns and trips. They have had their chances pretty much halved with no mitigation at all. This is a whole subset of melee that is no longer a realistic option and was never OP before the changes.

3) - tanks are no longer realistic? That's not my ingame experience at all.

(snip) have now been shelved as are now no longer any fun to play

So I'm gonna need some more examples as these don't fly.

Asked and answered? If you compare your answer to the underlined parts of the original comment, do you consider your answers...comprehensive?!

[Karthunk]

Previous (pre-49) build types:

1. Builds doing pure DPS - very viable
2. Builds doing High Procs, low DPS - very viable since procs depend on multiple attacks.

After (post-49):

1. Builds doing pure DPS - still very viable, no change
2. Builds doing High Procs, low DPS - not viable anymore since proc chances reduced.

This is the reduction of build diversity people are talking about. SSG is pigeon-holing players into doing pure DPS builds and getting away from high proc (due to multiple chances) builds.
This is removing build diversity.

Sorry if you cannot see that.

Personally, I could give two hoots about DPS, especially on my Bow User mule. He was built for CC and multiple procs. Shiradi, AA, DWS. Now, he holds overflow gear.

Back on topic:
They did this in the name of reducing a certain type of lag. I still see star wars scrolling of damage, I still pause mid-battle, I still rubberband in the marketplace, etc. So, that certain type of lag still exists. On a scale of 100 (100 = lag being the worst), it may have lowered this type of lag from 100 to 95. This "bow pass and lag fix," which is looking more like just a set-up for the sale of Horizon Walker, failed miserably.

Sorry if you cannot see that, as well.

Is losing different playstyles, in a game touted as being one of the best for build diversity, worth that fix?

Why are we still talking about the AA tree like it wasn't a dumpster fire before the update?

Shiradi is working just fine.

They never said that this was a end all, be all fix for lag. Has it helped? Yes

[carsonfball]

Lag still exists, and it's worse than before. So the precise reason for why all these catastrophic nerfs were implemented in the first place... still isn't fixed.

Obviously YMMV, but lag for me has gotten much better since update 49. Is there still lag? Yes. Is it as criplling? Definitely not. I don't think I've rubber-banded once (outside of one 5 minute period where I was having spotty Internet on my end and everything was having issues, not just DDO) since the roll out.

[Weemadarthur]

But there are more builds doing high DPS so again, there is a net viability increase.

That doesn't alter the fact that there is still a net plus in build diversity which will be amplified even more when Horizon Walker comes out and bows are opened up to classes beyond ranger.

Just going to address these 2 parts of your post.

The first part I would say is sort of accurate. More builds I would agree are doing better dps so are viable so yes I agree there is a net viability increase.

Build diversity is not the same as viability though. This is where the second line is completely wrong. More builds are viable but all of those builds are dps builds. Diversity has decreased as non dps builds have across the board taken a hit. The different types of build has been reduced in favor of the one type. DPS is it. This is not diversity it is homogenization. It is the absolute polar opposite of diversity.

[Tsutti]

This "bow pass and lag fix," which is looking more like just a set-up for the sale of Horizon Walker, failed miserably.

Sorry if you cannot see that, as well.

Is losing different playstyles, in a game touted as being one of the best for build diversity, worth that fix?

I won't dispute the reduced build diversity, though AA cc should be one of the things that still works fine as long as you specifically build for it because it's a 100% chance to happen proc with a dc, unlike so many other procs people use that have less than a 100% chance to proc.

I don't think it's meant to be a setup to sell Horizon Walker; maybe they'll try to put proc related things in it because that's suddenly what the game is lacking, but as far as I'm aware it was intended to be a sort of bow tree, and the devs stated that the reason they're not releasing it with the bow pass is so they can make sure it doesn't super overtune bows/become necessary for bows to be viable. Even if it does become a proc centered tree, that gives procs back some of their relevance (assuming there is a way to do that without exacerbating the problems that U49 meant to alleviate), is having a little of that build diversity back a bad thing?

[WaxLyrical]

Just going to address these 2 parts of your post.

The first part I would say is sort of accurate. More builds I would agree are doing better dps so are viable so yes I agree there is a net viability increase.

Build diversity is not the same as viability though. This is where the second line is completely wrong. More builds are viable but all of those builds are dps builds. Diversity has decreased as non dps builds have across the board taken a hit. The different types of build has been reduced in favor of the one type. DPS is it. This is not diversity it is homogenization. It is the absolute polar opposite of diversity.

I agree with your sentiment, build diversity is the USP of this game and it just took a big wallop. One thing is for sure, a dribble of awsomesauce has been procced by many a criticism in the whole of this thread.

[myliftkk_v2]

I agree with your sentiment, build diversity is the USP of this game and it just took a big wallop. One thing is for sure, a dribble of awsomesauce has been procced by many a criticism in the whole of this thread.

The proc rate on that was always going to be 100%.

The death of playstyle diversity is apparent just by looking at my stable of capped toons I no longer bother to trot out.

But, the "big numbers! big prizes!" crowd continues playing the dirge while marching through the Inspired Quarter nevertheless. When every character and encounter is just another Smash TV variant, they'll have the vanilla flavor they are pining for.