Vanguard assistance

[Dream_Marauder]

Hi builders! I'm getting ready to play my first Vanguard life, and was hoping for some ideas for making my build a bit better. This is a Dwarf life for the racial PL. I have 1 extra destiny point, and 1 universal point. No racial PL points as of yet.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Basher
Fighter 20
True Neutral Dwarf


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . 18. . . .+8. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . .8. . . .+8. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 18. . . .+8. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . 14. . . .+8. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+8. . . 20: STR
Charisma. . . . 10. . . .+8. . . 24: STR
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: STR

Skills
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Intim . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Jump. . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Swim. . . . .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .2 .2 .2 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Balance . 1. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 11
UMD . . . 2. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
Tumble. . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .½ .½ .½ .½ .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . 9
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .16. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7


Feats

.1. . . . : Two Handed Fighting
.1 Fighter: Stunning Blow
.2 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.3. . . . : Completionist
.4 Fighter: Improved Shield Bash
.6. . . . : Power Attack
.6 Fighter: Improved Two Handed Fighting
.8 Fighter: Cleave
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
10 Fighter: Improved Shield Mastery
12. . . . : Heavy Armor Master
12 Fighter: Greater Two Handed Fighting
14 Fighter: Greater Shield Mastery
15. . . . : Precision
16 Fighter: Heavy Armor Champion
18. . . . : Tactical Supremacy
18 Fighter: Great Cleave
20 Fighter: Tactical Mastery
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Combat Expertise
26 Destiny: Perfect Shield Mastery
27 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Epic Reflexes
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Earth


Enhancements (80+1 AP)

Vanguard (42 AP)

• To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II, Vicious Shield II, Shield Champion
  1. Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
  2. Shield Specialization, Brutality III, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III
  3. Shield Specialization, Strength
  4. Shield Specialization, Armor Mastery III, Shield Charge I
  5. Shield Specialization, Disorienting Smash III, Shield Rush III, Armored Strength

Stalwart Defender (14 AP)

• Toughness, Stalwart Defense
  1. Improved Stalwart Defense: Durable Defense III, Threatening Countenance III
  2. Improved Stalwart Defense: Resilient Defense III
  3. Greater Stalwart Defense: Tenacious Defense III

Kensei (11 AP)

• Kensei Focus: Axes, Spiritual Bond, Strike With No Thought
  1. Weapon Group Specialization: Axes, Action Boost: Haste Boost III
  2. Weapon Group Specialization: Axes, Ascetic Training: Conditioning I

Dwarf (7 AP)

• Dwarven Toughness, Dwarven Constitution
  1. Axe Training
  2. Axe Training

Harper Agent (7 AP)

• Agent of Good I
  1. Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
  2. Know the Angles II

Destiny (25 of 24 AP) (Errors)

Legendary Dreadnought

1. Legendary Tactics III, Strength
2. Momentum Swing III, Imp. Combat Expertise, Strength
3. Lay Waste, Haste Boost III
4. Tactical Genius
5. Devastating Critical
6. Master's Blitz, Headman's Chop

Twists of Fate (31 fate points)

1. Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
2. Meld into Darkness (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
3. Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
4. Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
5. Unearthly Reactions (Tier 1 Magister)

[Pandjed]

Alright, first: Evasion doesn't work with medium/heavy armor or large/tower shields (with how large shields and tower shields work on reflex saves, doubling your MRR, you also don't need it really). So the second level rogue doesn't do anything. If you really want to do traps (which I certainly doesn't see the need on a vanguard), one level rogue/arti is enough, then you grab a level in another class like barbarian for at least short-term rage if you like it and added movement speed, or something.
But vanguard capstone is really good.

Also, shields don't benefit from IC: Bludgeoning. Combat Expertise and Power Attack also can't be active at the same time.

If you're a dwarf, I'd really drop the cleaves and go with Dwarven Axe and the THF-line, as it makes the whole process much easier. For the leveling, I'd drop the vanguard tree entirely and go into Kensei instead, as vanguard offers a lot for defense in itself and doubling on offense and CC makes the quests much faster. Which would also mean to invest more feats in the weapon focus line.
Before the added T5, I ran a vanguard with Kensei in t5 and it was a monster, which only problem was self-heal, but with enough defenses to run most quests without shrining or healing, because of how much each hp was worth.

In case, you want to do something else with this build but to bulldoze through your life, just say so, and I take another look. Otherwise, I'd suggest the following feat progression:

.1. . . . : Two-handed Fighting
.1 Fighter: Weapon Focus (Slashing)
.2 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.3. . . . : Completionist
.4 Fighter: Improved Shield Bash
.6. . . . : Weapon Specialization (Slashing)
.6 Fighter: Improved Two-Handed Fighting
.8 Fighter: Improved Weapon Focus (Slashing)
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
10 Fighter: Improved Shield Mastery
12. . . . : Heavy Armor Master
12 Fighter: Greater Two-Handed Fighting
14 Fighter: Greater Shield Mastery
15. . . . : Greater Weapon Specialization (Slashing)
16 Fighter: Heavy Armor Champion
18. . . . : Tactical Mastery
18 Fighter: Precision/Power Attack
20 Fighter: Tactical Supremacy

[Dream_Marauder]

Alright, first: Evasion doesn't work with medium/heavy armor or large/tower shields (with how large shields and tower shields work on reflex saves, doubling your MRR, you also don't need it really). So the second level rogue doesn't do anything. If you really want to do traps (which I certainly doesn't see the need on a vanguard), one level rogue/arti is enough, then you grab a level in another class like barbarian for at least short-term rage if you like it and added movement speed, or something.
But vanguard capstone is really good.

Also, shields don't benefit from IC: Bludgeoning. Combat Expertise and Power Attack also can't be active at the same time.

If you're a dwarf, I'd really drop the cleaves and go with Dwarven Axe and the THF-line, as it makes the whole process much easier. For the leveling, I'd drop the vanguard tree entirely and go into Kensei instead, as vanguard offers a lot for defense in itself and doubling on offense and CC makes the quests much faster. Which would also mean to invest more feats in the weapon focus line.
Before the added T5, I ran a vanguard with Kensei in t5 and it was a monster, which only problem was self-heal, but with enough defenses to run most quests without shrining or healing, because of how much each hp was worth.

In case, you want to do something else with this build but to bulldoze through your life, just say so, and I take another look. Otherwise, I'd suggest the following feat progression:

.1. . . . : Two-handed Fighting
.1 Fighter: Weapon Focus (Slashing)
.2 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.3. . . . : Completionist
.4 Fighter: Improved Shield Bash
.6. . . . : Weapon Specialization (Slashing)
.6 Fighter: Improved Two-Handed Fighting
.8 Fighter: Improved Weapon Focus (Slashing)
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
10 Fighter: Improved Shield Mastery
12. . . . : Heavy Armor Master
12 Fighter: Greater Two-Handed Fighting
14 Fighter: Greater Shield Mastery
15. . . . : Greater Weapon Specialization (Slashing)
16 Fighter: Heavy Armor Champion
18. . . . : Tactical Mastery
18 Fighter: Precision/Power Attack
20 Fighter: Tactical Supremacy

The second rogue level had really been more for helping complete my skills rather than evasion, but I also did take a look at that capstone just after I posted this morning. I'm starting to lean more toward a pure build - the IC bludgeoning had been for the option of switching to Warhammer on a situational basis - although the situation would usually be skeletons that are immune to crits anyway. The power attack was for the cleave pre-req. I had forgotten that dwarven axe benefits from THF, so I like that idea too. I will update my original post with an edited version. Thanks for your help!

By the way, I was curious to hear more about the suggestion of dropping vanguard in heroics. Is it really painful to play at low levels? I've played lots of Kensei in the past, so at this point I'm more inclined to try to play through as a Vanguard for the new experience. I may change my mind if it's not fun.

I also have a general question - does anyone know if Harper Enhancement stacks with the epic past life that gives enhancement bonus to weapons?

[Propane]

Hello -

Below is build I have been toying with - only lv 5 now.

Using a two handed weapon until some where between Lv 6-10 - will see how it goes.
Spread Arti levels out to keep up trap skills and snag Quicken for heals as one heads into Epics.


Classes: 12 Paladin, 10 Epic, 4 Artificer, 4 Fighter


Class and Feat Selection
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level Class · · · · · ·Feats
1 · · Artificer(1)· · ·Standard: Stunning Blow
2 · · Paladin(1)· · · ·Follower of Faith: Follower of the Sovereign Host
3 · · Paladin(2)· · · ·Standard: Two Handed Fighting
4 · · Paladin(3)· · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
5 · · Paladin(4)· · · ·
6 · · Artificer(2)· · ·Standard: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
7 · · Paladin(5)· · · ·
8 · · Fighter(1)· · · ·Fighter Bonus: Improved Two Handed Fighting
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
9 · · Paladin(6)· · · ·Standard: Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Deity: Search the Soul
10· · Fighter(2)· · · ·Fighter Bonus: Shield Mastery
11· · Paladin(7)· · · ·
12· · Artificer(3)· · ·Standard: Greater Two Handed Fighting
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
13· · Paladin(8)· · · ·
14· · Paladin(9)· · · ·
15· · Paladin(10) · · ·Standard: Improved Shield Mastery
16· · Paladin(11) · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
17· · Paladin(12) · · ·
18· · Fighter(3)· · · ·Standard: Greater Shield Mastery
19· · Fighter(4)· · · ·Fighter Bonus: Tactical Training
20· · Artificer(4)· · ·Artificer Bonus: Quicken Spell
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
21· · Epic(1) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Overwhelming Critical
22· · Epic(2) · · · · ·
23· · Epic(3) · · · · ·
24· · Epic(4) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Improved Shield Bash
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
25· · Epic(5) · · · · ·
26· · Epic(6) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27· · Epic(7) · · · · ·Epic Feat: Blinding Speed
28· · Epic(8) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Elusive Target
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Strength: +1 Level up
29· · Epic(9) · · · · ·Epic Destiny Feat: Dire Charge
30· · Epic(10)· · · · ·Epic Feat: Intensify Spell
· · · · · · · · · · · ·Legendary: Scion of the Astral Plane

Some food for thought - good luck!

[Pandjed]

By the way, I was curious to hear more about the suggestion of dropping vanguard in heroics. Is it really painful to play at low levels? I've played lots of Kensei in the past, so at this point I'm more inclined to try to play through as a Vanguard for the new experience. I may change my mind if it's not fun.

Sorry, In meant Stalward Defender, somehow got in this moment Vanguard as tank tree stuck in my head. Vanguard works well as a hybrid tree for offense and defense, and therefore you should keep the Vanguard there (especially considering you want to play one), and I think the added Defense of SWD isn't really needed.

I consider Vanguard having a better leveling curve than Kensei, mostly because Kensei really takes time to pick up. Don't know if the new van tier 5 and adjustments are worth taking vanguard over kensei there (though always vanguard capstone), but personally, I'd try it. And enhancement trees only need plat to be retrained, after all.

No matter what, I had really much fun with my last vanguard and want to return to one later for a dwarf life as well.

[unbongwah]

My usual baseline AP split for a Vanguard:

• 41 VG for capstone + tier-5s
• 14 SD for Greater Stalwart Defense (either Strong or Tenacious) + Overbalance
• 11 Kensei for Strike with No Thought (stacks with VG Brutal Impact AFAIK)

That leaves at least 14 APs to spare: e.g., 7 dwarf for the first two Axe enhancements (+10 Strikethrough, +2 hit & dmg), 7 Harper for Know the Angles.

I would definitely grab a tactics feat or two: at least Stunning Blow, maybe CE+Impoved Trip as well. You don't take a combat stance feat until level 18 (Precision), whereas I would definitely want it a lot sooner. Start with DEX 10 instead of CHA 10 and you can grab Precision at level 3. That's just free DPS you're leaving untapped.

It's been a really long time since I updated this build so let's see if I still remember how to do this.

Dwarven Defender (U49)
Fighter 20
True Neutral Dwarf




Stats
               34pt     36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     ----     --------
Strength        18       18                4: STR
Dexterity       10       10       +3       8: STR
Constitution    16       17               12: STR
Intelligence    16       16       +2      16: STR
Wisdom           8        8               20: STR
Charisma         6        6               24: STR
                                          28: STR


Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Intim     4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Swim      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Concent   1  1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1  11
Search    2     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Balance   1  1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1  11
UMD       2     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         20  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6  6




Feats


 1        : Power Attack
 1 Fighter: Two Handed Fighting
 2 Fighter: Cleave
 3        : Precision
 4 Fighter: Great Cleave
 6        : Stunning Blow
 6 Fighter: Improved Two Handed Fighting
 8 Fighter: Improved Critical: Slashing
 9        : Improved Shield Bash
10 Fighter: Shield Mastery
12        : Improved Shield Mastery
12 Fighter: Greater Two Handed Fighting
14 Fighter: Heavy Armor Champion
15        : Greater Shield Mastery
16 Fighter: Tactical Supremacy
18        : Combat Expertise
18 Fighter: Improved Trip
20 Fighter: Tactical Mastery OR Shield Deflection
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Bulwark of Defense
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Shield Mastery
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Epic Fortitude
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea




Enhancements (Spent: 80+0r +0u / Max: 80+0r +0u AP)


Vanguard (41 AP)
To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II, Vicious Shield II, Shield Champion
Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
Shield Specialization, Brutality I, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III, Melee Power Boost III
Shield Specialization, Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark
Shield Specialization
Shield Specialization, Shield Rush III, Armored Strength, Brutal Impact

Stalwart Defender (14 AP)
Toughness, Stalwart Defense, Overbalance
Item Defense I, Improved Stalwart Defense: Durable Defense III
Improved Stalwart Defense: Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Greater Stalwart Defense: Strong Defense III

Kensei (11 AP)
Kensei Focus: Axes, Spiritual Bond, Strike With No Thought
Weapon Group Specialization: Axes, Action Boost: Haste Boost III
Ascetic Training: Conditioning III

Dwarf (7 AP)
Dwarven Toughness, Dwarven Constitution
Axe Training
Axe Training

Harper Agent (7 AP)
Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II

Leveling Guide
Ken0 Kensei Focus: Axes; Ken1 Action Boost: Haste Boost I, II, III
Ken1 Weapon Group Specialization: Axes; SD0 Toughness; SD1 Item Defense I
SD1 Improved Stalwart Defense: Durable Defense I, II, III; SD0 Stalwart Defense
Ken0 Spiritual Bond; SD2 Improved Stalwart Defense: Resilient Defense I, II, III
SD2 Instinctive Defense I; SD3 Greater Stalwart Defense: Strong Defense I, II, III
Ken2 Ascetic Training: Conditioning I, II, III; Ken0 Strike With No Thought
SD0 Overbalance; Van0 To the Fore!; Van1 Shield Specialization
Van1 Shield Smash I, II, III; Van0 Shield Combat I
Van2 Stunning Shield I, II, III; Van0 Vicious Shield I
Van3 Fatal Bulwark; Van3 Follow Up I, II
Van3 Follow Up III; Van2 Melee Power Boost I, II, III
Reset Kensei
Vanguard: Shield Combat II
(none)
Shield Specialization, Brutality I, Missile Shield III
Shield Specialization
Shield Specialization
Armored Strength, Brutal Impact
Van5 Shield Specialization; Van5 Shield Rush I, II
Van5 Shield Rush III; Ken0 Kensei Focus: Axes; Ken1 Weapon Group Specialization: Axes
Ken1 Action Boost: Haste Boost I, II, III; Ken0 Spiritual Bond
Ken2 Ascetic Training: Conditioning I, II, III; Ken0 Strike With No Thought
Dwf0 Dwarven Toughness; Dwf1 Axe Training; Hrp0 Agent of Good I
Van0 Vicious Shield II; Hrp1 Harper Enchantment; Hrp1 Traveler's Toughness I
Hrp1 Traveler's Toughness II; Hrp2 Know the Angles I, II
Dwf0 Dwarven Constitution; Van0 Shield Champion; Dwf2 Axe Training



Destiny (24 AP)


Legendary Dreadnought
Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost II
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Combat Expertise, Imp. Power Attack
Lay Waste
Anvil of Thunder
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz, Headman's Chop

Twists of Fate (26 fate points)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)

TBH I would just use my favorite 2H weapons until at least level 7 or 8, which is why I delayed the shield feats. Vanguard is a backloaded tree IMO and I want to spend 24 APs in Kensei and StD fairly early on. Plus there aren't any low-level named dwarven axes, so it's all crafted or lootgen weapons until you get to Mountain's Fist or Stormreach Guardian's Axe. Whereas bastard sword users have several options: Savage Sword, Chimera's Fang, Cutting Currency, Spinal Tap. Just further proof of how SSG is biased against dwarves.

[Dream_Marauder]

This helps. I had meant to take stunning blow anyhow. I also hadn't noticed I was missing shield specialization V, because it wasn't in CB lite. I think this will be a fun build. The build is updated again in the original post.