Adrenaline Changes

[Epicsoul]

For my playstyle, the primary use for Adrenaline is to quickly kill dangerous crowns and reapers. The lower damage from each Adrenaline is a significant nerf to this use case.

I've not spent time breaking down the numbers, but for my build and non optimized gearset my R5 Bruntsmash is about 10% longer on current lamannia compared to Khyber. So my expectation is I am looking at a 10% DPS nerf on most boss fights. That may change when I do more work on my gear.

Is that your experience while double striking?

[Selvera]

Hello Everyone,
But then how many new players or not legendary players can reach 100% doublestrike??? Also , only at lvl 29-30 you can get your doublestrike values to 100% of course if you have a complete set of past lives, a complete set of gear that gets doublestrike and a complete enhnamcement or racial bonuses that provide extra doublestrike. Those are the conditions that need to be met in order to have the damage on par.

Just to play a bit of devil's advocate here; but in DDO it's kinda easy to reach 100% doublestrike on a temperary basis on a lot of builds. Here's a couple of examples...

Thief Acrobat:

Cartwheel charge: 20% doublestrike
Quick Strike: 25% doublestrike
Quick Reflexes: 5% doublestrike
Killer: 20% doublestrike
Reaper's Strike: 30% doublestrike

Total: 100% doublestrike at level 20 with no items, no pastlives, no ED's and 4 reaper points.

Swashbuckler:

Swashbuckling: 5% doublestrike
Action Boost Doublestrike: 30% doublestrike
Dashing Scoundrel: 10% doublestrike
Quick Reflexes: 5% doublestrike
Balod Melody Recklessness: 6% doublestrike
Reaper's Strike: 30% doublestrike
Running with Wind: 6% doublestrike
Hail of Blows: 3% doublestrike
Spectre Boots: 9% doublestrike

Total: 104% doublestrike at level 20 with 1 item, no pastlives, 2 tier 2 twists and 4 reaper points.

And yeah; I may be cherry picking builds with high doublestrike; but we're hitting 100% or more without the 12% from pastlives or uber endgame gear; not even using level 10 ravenloft doublestrike gearsets or anything. And anyone can twist a tier 2 doublestrike boost for that huge boost if they need it on their own build...

What; you want a barbarian build cause that's all you care about? Sure, pick the 1 melee class that doesn't have an innate like 20% doublestrike in it's class abilities or enhancements...

Quick Reflexes: 5%
Reaper's Strike: 30%
Action Boost: Doublestrike: 30%
Running with Wind: 6%
Hammerfist: 3% + 5%
Specre Boots: 9%
Part of the Family (heroic): 10%

Total: 98% doublestrike at level 20 with heroic sharn gear, no pastlives, 2 tier 2 twists, and 4 reaper points

[TPICKRELL]

Is that your experience while double striking?

I don't remember my Doublestrike number, my gearset is pieced together since this is a past life build not an end build so I doubt I have 100% doublestrike. I usually find that spreadsheeting changes don't reflect what I see in game, so I did the Bruntsmash on both to have somewhat comparable baseline numbers.

Improving my gear may bring those numbers back in line. The main point is that for most of us this is a DPS nerf. It may not be for those of you with completed builds and fully optimized gear, but for me today its a 10% boss DPS nerf in addition to the nerf from reduced procs on non scaling effects.

[noinfo]

What; you want a barbarian build cause that's all you care about? Sure, pick the 1 melee class that doesn't have an innate like 20% doublestrike in it's class abilities or enhancements...

Quick Reflexes: 5%
Reaper's Strike: 30%
Action Boost: Doublestrike: 30%
Running with Wind: 6%
Hammerfist: 3% + 5%
Specre Boots: 9%
Part of the Family (heroic): 10%

Total: 98% doublestrike at level 20 with heroic sharn gear, no pastlives, 2 tier 2 twists, and 4 reaper points

Just checking where the action boost is coming from. And 11 points in vistani from the look. Oh and 4 reaper points will buy you 1 minute of use.

Your argument is that it is ok to shift the ability from double strike neutral to dependant as they can give up twists and resend ap to avoid a proxy nerf to high doublestrke melee?

[Hawkwier]

Just to play a bit of devil's advocate here; but in DDO it's kinda easy to reach 100% doublestrike on a temperary basis on a lot of builds. Here's a couple of examples...

Thief Acrobat:

Cartwheel charge: 20% doublestrike
Quick Strike: 25% doublestrike
Quick Reflexes: 5% doublestrike
Killer: 20% doublestrike
Reaper's Strike: 30% doublestrike

Total: 100% doublestrike at level 20 with no items, no pastlives, no ED's and 4 reaper points.

Swashbuckler:

Swashbuckling: 5% doublestrike
Action Boost Doublestrike: 30% doublestrike
Dashing Scoundrel: 10% doublestrike
Quick Reflexes: 5% doublestrike
Balod Melody Recklessness: 6% doublestrike
Reaper's Strike: 30% doublestrike
Running with Wind: 6% doublestrike
Hail of Blows: 3% doublestrike
Spectre Boots: 9% doublestrike

Total: 104% doublestrike at level 20 with 1 item, no pastlives, 2 tier 2 twists and 4 reaper points.

And yeah; I may be cherry picking builds with high doublestrike; but we're hitting 100% or more without the 12% from pastlives or uber endgame gear; not even using level 10 ravenloft doublestrike gearsets or anything. And anyone can twist a tier 2 doublestrike boost for that huge boost if they need it on their own build...

What; you want a barbarian build cause that's all you care about? Sure, pick the 1 melee class that doesn't have an innate like 20% doublestrike in it's class abilities or enhancements...

Quick Reflexes: 5%
Reaper's Strike: 30%
Action Boost: Doublestrike: 30%
Running with Wind: 6%
Hammerfist: 3% + 5%
Specre Boots: 9%
Part of the Family (heroic): 10%

Total: 98% doublestrike at level 20 with heroic sharn gear, no pastlives, 2 tier 2 twists, and 4 reaper points

Where are you getting Action Boost DS from barb trees?

And Reaper Strike requires you to be in Reaper.

At cap my barb is sitting at 75% outside of Reaper (i.e. in most raids). That's with full PLs and good gear.

The notion that it's easy to be sitting at 100% DS is a fallacy, and quite patronising to imply that everyone therefore should be. Using 100% DS as the benchmark for comparison is quite disingenuous IMO.

Sure you can make some of it up with twists, but that's conveniently ignoring the opportunity cost involved there too.

PS I doubt you'll have access to 2 T2 twists at 20 come the ED review anyway, so enjoy that while you still can...

[Logicman69]

With the change to the regen rate, it seems they want us just to spam Adrenaline Overload whenever its off cooldown.. if that is the case, maybe they should change Unbridled Fury to be a toggle that will automatically activate Adrenaline Overload every 6 seconds as long as you have charges.

[Malusny]

Just to play a bit of devil's advocate here; but in DDO it's kinda easy to reach 100% doublestrike on a temperary basis on a lot of builds. Here's a couple of examples...

Thief Acrobat:

Cartwheel charge: 20% doublestrike
Quick Strike: 25% doublestrike
Quick Reflexes: 5% doublestrike
Killer: 20% doublestrike
Reaper's Strike: 30% doublestrike

Total: 100% doublestrike at level 20 with no items, no pastlives, no ED's and 4 reaper points.

Swashbuckler:

Swashbuckling: 5% doublestrike
Action Boost Doublestrike: 30% doublestrike
Dashing Scoundrel: 10% doublestrike
Quick Reflexes: 5% doublestrike
Balod Melody Recklessness: 6% doublestrike
Reaper's Strike: 30% doublestrike
Running with Wind: 6% doublestrike
Hail of Blows: 3% doublestrike
Spectre Boots: 9% doublestrike

Total: 104% doublestrike at level 20 with 1 item, no pastlives, 2 tier 2 twists and 4 reaper points.

And yeah; I may be cherry picking builds with high doublestrike; but we're hitting 100% or more without the 12% from pastlives or uber endgame gear; not even using level 10 ravenloft doublestrike gearsets or anything. And anyone can twist a tier 2 doublestrike boost for that huge boost if they need it on their own build...

What; you want a barbarian build cause that's all you care about? Sure, pick the 1 melee class that doesn't have an innate like 20% doublestrike in it's class abilities or enhancements...

Quick Reflexes: 5%
Reaper's Strike: 30%
Action Boost: Doublestrike: 30%
Running with Wind: 6%
Hammerfist: 3% + 5%
Specre Boots: 9%
Part of the Family (heroic): 10%

Total: 98% doublestrike at level 20 with heroic sharn gear, no pastlives, 2 tier 2 twists, and 4 reaper points

Sorry to say but this is all nonsense. Non of your builds would never run Fury of the wild, simply because non of them is a THF build except for the barbarian (btw, how do you get doublestrike action boost on a barbarian? Or did you forget to mention that you must have to take Bard levels or Druid levels... ?)
Also tell me how do you want to get Running with Wind in heroic levels as it is in Epic Destiny?

Sorry but a bunch of unplayable nonsense.
Cheers.

[Epicsoul]

It may not be for those of you with completed builds and fully optimized gear, but for me today its a 10% boss DPS nerf in addition to the nerf from reduced procs on non scaling effects.

Correct. Anyone without high double strike will experience a DPS nerf. Would be cool it was an automatic double strike. For instance, maybe it gives +100% double strike on your next hit as well.

[TPICKRELL]

Correct. Anyone without high double strike will experience a DPS nerf. Would be cool it was an automatic double strike. For instance, maybe it gives +100% double strike on your next hit as well.

Yeah my double strike is only 65% with a decent non-raid gearset. Leaving the folks with perfect end game gear intact while nerfing everyone who doesn't have optimal gear... I guess that does sound like the SSG way.

[Selvera]

Sorry to say but this is all nonsense. Non of your builds would never run Fury of the wild, simply because non of them is a THF build except for the barbarian (btw, how do you get doublestrike action boost on a barbarian? Or did you forget to mention that you must have to take Bard levels or Druid levels... ?)
Also tell me how do you want to get Running with Wind in heroic levels as it is in Epic Destiny?

Sorry but a bunch of unplayable nonsense.
Cheers.

Ah my mistake on nature's warrior; but when was the last time you built a thief acrobat that wasn't THF? The entire enhancement tree is built around using THF.

Who said anything about heroic levels? My example builds were all level 20 and using epic destinies; otherwise you can't use adrenaline.

And idk about you folks; but raids seem to be about 50/50 hard or reaper 1 in pugs that I join. Maybe slightly skewed towards hard, but the hard runs rarely have problems, except sometimes in newer raids. But if you're talking about raiding anyways... why are you complaining about not having level 30 or being able to equip legendary gear? Do you run a lot of EH chronoscope at 20 and need extra dps for that?

And those builds were examples. Fighter is often THF and gets somewhere in the order of 20% passive doublestrike from enhancements. Paladin is often THF and gets 10% from a spell.

[Hawkwier]

Ah my mistake on nature's warrior; but when was the last time you built a thief acrobat that wasn't THF? The entire enhancement tree is built around using THF.

Who said anything about heroic levels? My example builds were all level 20 and using epic destinies; otherwise you can't use adrenaline.

And idk about you folks; but raids seem to be about 50/50 hard or reaper 1 in pugs that I join. Maybe slightly skewed towards hard, but the hard runs rarely have problems, except sometimes in newer raids. But if you're talking about raiding anyways... why are you complaining about not having level 30 or being able to equip legendary gear? Do you run a lot of EH chronoscope at 20 and need extra dps for that?

And those builds were examples. Fighter is often THF and gets somewhere in the order of 20% passive doublestrike from enhancements. Paladin is often THF and gets 10% from a spell.

Now this really is nonsense.

Don't complain folks, as you're only being nerfed in half the riads Sellers plays in. And don't play a barb to avoid the nerf, or you're doing it wrong.

So now I'm supposed to change my build entirely or not complain?

What a load of patronising garbage!

[Selvera]

Just to play a bit of devil's advocate here

What a load of patronising garbage!

Checks out.

I'm not saying it's not a nerf or that everyone should be able to get to 100% doublestrike on all builds in all content easily. I'm playing devil's advocate here and saying that it's a lot easier to hit 100% doublestrike in content that matters then a lot of people here are making it out to be.

[Sythe777]

This just is not true, no matter how you spin it. I can't even wrap my mind around your argument. If you were saying, "this is a nerf to builds with less than 100% multihit," I would agree with you. But you're not. With Adrenaline now applying to a multi strike hit, it's doing the same dmg. With it recharging on every vorpal, that's a buff because you can use it more. So when you say, "Adrenaline has a 6 second cooldown which means no matter how many charges you have, it doesn't improve your DPS," I don't understand how you can be so entirely wrong. DPS isn't measured in just ONE hit, it's measured over a period of time.

I mean, if you want to say it like that. The period of 1 attack can be a measurement of time.

In any case, I don't agree with the sentiment that increased adrenaline upkeep validates a reduction in a flat damage modifier. The majority of the time you use adrenaline, it's for things that can/will survive the adrenalined attack. For example, high-reaper mobs, reapers, champs, and bosses.

The excuse that, "Well now you can use it more often", also doesn't apply when you are attacking a pack of mobs with strikethrough because the mobs will all die at roughly the same time regardless of whether or not you used adrenaline on only one of them. For example, let's assume you do roughly 10% of a single mob's health and attack a pack of 4 them with 300% strikethrough (ie. you can attack all of them). In roughly 10 swings (about the same number of attacks in the time adrenaline is on cooldown for with only haste/swiftness applied), all 4 mobs are dead. Let's assume you used adrenaline beforehand and so you can immediately follow up with another adrenaline once you've attacked. 2 mobs are dead in roughly 5 swings and the other 2 mobs are dead in roughly 10 swings; or 1 in 2 swings and 3 in 10 swings depending on how you spent the second adrenaline. So the only thing you've managed to mitigate is the amount of damage the two mobs could have done to you. My point here is that adrenaline (even on live) is not worth using on generic mobs despite being able to recover the charges at an accelerated rate unless you meet one of the conditions I mentioned above.

Yeah my double strike is only 65% with a decent non-raid gearset. Leaving the folks with perfect end game gear intact while nerfing everyone who doesn't have optimal gear... I guess that does sound like the SSG way.

You can bump it a little bit more with GMoF twists, but yea. Unbuffed with near-max doublestrike on pure barb, I sit at 92%. Barring racial trees, the only way I can bump it any more is Scourge PLs.
24% Enhancement
11% Insightful
10% Profane
15% Artifact
3% Filigree Set
9% Epic Past Life
5% PTWF
5% Quick Reflexes
6% Running with Wind
3% Hail of Blows
(Somehow missing 1% here, could be either the character sheet mis-reporting the value or a value is giving more than it should)

The way adrenaline damage differs would now be x*(1+doublestrike/100)*(1+200/100)
So for any build that can upkeep 100% doublestrike, this is a slight buff as adrenaline will go from x*(1+400/100) = 5x to x*(1+1)*(1+200/100) = 6x
If we expand it out to find the minimum multihit occurrence required to go back to 5x damage on average then we get:
5x = x*(1+doublestrike/100)*(1+200/100)
5 = (1+doublestrike/100)*3
5/3 = 1+doublestrike/100
2/3 = doublestrike/100
66.6... = doublestrike
So if your multihit chance is more than 66.6% then you will be doing more damage on average compared to live.

However, this is on average and if you do not multihit you actually have more to lose because you will only do 3x damage and not 6x.

Personally, if I had to choose, I would rather have the guaranteed 5x damage than rely on having to get my doublestrike up to 100% to get 6x damage.

[Hawkwier]

Checks out.

I'm not saying it's not a nerf or that everyone should be able to get to 100% doublestrike on all builds in all content easily. I'm playing devil's advocate here and saying that it's a lot easier to hit 100% doublestrike in content that matters then a lot of people here are making it out to be.

And coming apart with every post... First, 60% of your easy to get doesn't readily apply (OK you're sorry, and that's fine as we all make mistakes, but what are you then using to get to your easy 100% instead? It makes no sense at all). Then, it's OK because it's only a nerf some of the time, and not to all builds, implying if it does, well, what, too bad,? Mr Devil would have been sent away for a very long stretch indeed I'm afraid, as I'm not entirely sure you have covered your brief adequately here.

I've set out already in this thread how I've reached standing 75% DS, at cap, with investment in all relevant PLs, and top line gear (I'm not aware I'm missing anything hugely significant, but happy to be corrected). I didn't consider any of that easy. So perhaps you can tell me how I close the gap on the other 25% if it's all so easy..?

I don't mean to have a go at you personally, but my not insignificant ire stems from the fact that THF Barbs got a nerf recently with the stat to damage reduction. OK. Now though, within a matter of weeks, we're just expected to suck it up with this shenanigans yet again?

They won't even set the nerf at a more moderate level that ensures nobody is disadvantaged... Nah, can't do that, we'll make sure we capture everyone with the nerf bat, and if some folks come off worse, well, forget about em. They're only customers anyway.

Thing is, if customers start to feel the game doesn't give a fig for them, that sort of attitude can quickly cut both ways.

Attitude absolutely stinks IMO.

[Hawkwier]

I mean, if you want to say it like that. The period of 1 attack can be a measurement of time.

In any case, I don't agree with the sentiment that increased adrenaline upkeep validates a reduction in a flat damage modifier. The majority of the time you use adrenaline, it's for things that can/will survive the adrenalined attack. For example, high-reaper mobs, reapers, champs, and bosses.

The excuse that, "Well now you can use it more often", also doesn't apply when you are attacking a pack of mobs with strikethrough because the mobs will all die at roughly the same time regardless of whether or not you used adrenaline on only one of them. For example, let's assume you do roughly 10% of a single mob's health and attack a pack of 4 them with 300% strikethrough (ie. you can attack all of them). In roughly 10 swings (about the same number of attacks in the time adrenaline is on cooldown for with only haste/swiftness applied), all 4 mobs are dead. Let's assume you used adrenaline beforehand and so you can immediately follow up with another adrenaline once you've attacked. 2 mobs are dead in roughly 5 swings and the other 2 mobs are dead in roughly 10 swings; or 1 in 2 swings and 3 in 10 swings depending on how you spent the second adrenaline. So the only thing you've managed to mitigate is the amount of damage the two mobs could have done to you. My point here is that adrenaline (even on live) is not worth using on generic mobs despite being able to recover the charges at an accelerated rate unless you meet one of the conditions I mentioned above.



You can bump it a little bit more with GMoF twists, but yea. Unbuffed with near-max doublestrike on pure barb, I sit at 92%. Barring racial trees, the only way I can bump it any more is Scourge PLs.
24% Enhancement
11% Insightful
10% Profane
15% Artifact
3% Filigree Set
9% Epic Past Life
5% PTWF
5% Quick Reflexes
6% Running with Wind
3% Hail of Blows
(Somehow missing 1% here, could be either the character sheet mis-reporting the value or a value is giving more than it should)

The way adrenaline damage differs would now be x*(1+doublestrike/100)*(1+200/100)
So for any build that can upkeep 100% doublestrike, this is a slight buff as adrenaline will go from x*(1+400/100) = 5x to x*(1+1)*(1+200/100) = 6x
If we expand it out to find the minimum multihit occurrence required to go back to 5x damage on average then we get:
5x = x*(1+doublestrike/100)*(1+200/100)
5 = (1+doublestrike/100)*3
5/3 = 1+doublestrike/100
2/3 = doublestrike/100
66.6... = doublestrike
So if your multihit chance is more than 66.6% then you will be doing more damage on average compared to live.

However, this is on average and if you do not multihit you actually have more to lose because you will only do 3x damage and not 6x.

Personally, if I had to choose, I would rather have the guaranteed 5x damage than rely on having to get my doublestrike up to 100% to get 6x damage.

Using GMOF twists has an opportunity cost as twists are a limited resource. I'm running 4,3,3,1,1 at full EPLs (again, was not easy, at all, to attain). It's effectively just asking us to choose us the form of our nerf. Great.

[Malusny]

I mean, if you want to say it like that. The period of 1 attack can be a measurement of time.

In any case, I don't agree with the sentiment that increased adrenaline upkeep validates a reduction in a flat damage modifier. The majority of the time you use adrenaline, it's for things that can/will survive the adrenalined attack. For example, high-reaper mobs, reapers, champs, and bosses.

The excuse that, "Well now you can use it more often", also doesn't apply when you are attacking a pack of mobs with strikethrough because the mobs will all die at roughly the same time regardless of whether or not you used adrenaline on only one of them. For example, let's assume you do roughly 10% of a single mob's health and attack a pack of 4 them with 300% strikethrough (ie. you can attack all of them). In roughly 10 swings (about the same number of attacks in the time adrenaline is on cooldown for with only haste/swiftness applied), all 4 mobs are dead. Let's assume you used adrenaline beforehand and so you can immediately follow up with another adrenaline once you've attacked. 2 mobs are dead in roughly 5 swings and the other 2 mobs are dead in roughly 10 swings; or 1 in 2 swings and 3 in 10 swings depending on how you spent the second adrenaline. So the only thing you've managed to mitigate is the amount of damage the two mobs could have done to you. My point here is that adrenaline (even on live) is not worth using on generic mobs despite being able to recover the charges at an accelerated rate unless you meet one of the conditions I mentioned above.



You can bump it a little bit more with GMoF twists, but yea. Unbuffed with near-max doublestrike on pure barb, I sit at 92%. Barring racial trees, the only way I can bump it any more is Scourge PLs.
24% Enhancement
11% Insightful
10% Profane
15% Artifact
3% Filigree Set
9% Epic Past Life
5% PTWF
5% Quick Reflexes
6% Running with Wind
3% Hail of Blows
(Somehow missing 1% here, could be either the character sheet mis-reporting the value or a value is giving more than it should)

The way adrenaline damage differs would now be x*(1+doublestrike/100)*(1+200/100)
So for any build that can upkeep 100% doublestrike, this is a slight buff as adrenaline will go from x*(1+400/100) = 5x to x*(1+1)*(1+200/100) = 6x
If we expand it out to find the minimum multihit occurrence required to go back to 5x damage on average then we get:
5x = x*(1+doublestrike/100)*(1+200/100)
5 = (1+doublestrike/100)*3
5/3 = 1+doublestrike/100
2/3 = doublestrike/100
66.6... = doublestrike
So if your multihit chance is more than 66.6% then you will be doing more damage on average compared to live.

However, this is on average and if you do not multihit you actually have more to lose because you will only do 3x damage and not 6x.

Personally, if I had to choose, I would rather have the guaranteed 5x damage than rely on having to get my doublestrike up to 100% to get 6x damage.

You are missing the doublestrike on live... if you use adrenaline in live you are not getting x5, you are getting x6 because it is: hit+adrenaline =5x but still you doublestrike so +1 so =6x

Upcoming changes , you do 6x also because 2x3 but that is only when the 100% doublestrike is achieved , if you roll an adrenaline hit and you don't multistrike , it will be only x3 total
If you use adrenaline (currently live) , you always get x5 , even if you have 0 doublestrike.


ps. to get all that doublestrike, a person has to really set up everything towards it, like - the profane bonus to doublestrike can be only gotten from Bloodrage Crism and not everybody can actually use it.

Please be reasonable.
The math is clear that if someone doesn't have 100% doublestrike it is a nerf to their DPS

[Selvera]

You are missing the doublestrike on live... if you use adrenaline in live you are not getting x5, you are getting x6 because it is: hit+adrenaline =5x but still you doublestrike so +1 so =6x

Upcoming changes , you do 6x also because 2x3 but that is only when the 100% doublestrike is achieved , if you roll an adrenaline hit and you don't multistrike , it will be only x3 total
If you use adrenaline (currently live) , you always get x5 , even if you have 0 doublestrike.


ps. to get all that doublestrike, a person has to really set up everything towards it, like - the profane bonus to doublestrike can be only gotten from Bloodrage Crism and not everybody can actually use it.

Please be reasonable.
The math is clear that if someone doesn't have 100% doublestrike it is a nerf to their DPS

And what your math is missing is that 1x damage of a crit is not = 1x damage of a normal hit. Which means the actual math is live is somewhere between 5x and 6x damage; harder to determine exactly how much.

Let's take a sec to contemplate how the damage may vary a bit...

Say hitting an average of 250 damage with 50 seeker and a 18-20 x4 critical profile, and how about 90% doublestrike.

Before; we have:
100% chance of ((250+50) x4) x5 + 90% chance of a doublestrike hit for (15% chance of (250+50)x4 + 85% chance of 250)
=300 x20 + 0.9 * (0.15 * 300 x4 + 0.85 * 250)
=6353 average damage (you know; not counting melee power and stuff)

After we have:
100% chance of ((250+50) x4) x3 + 90% chance of doublestrike hit for ((250+50) x4) x3
=300 x12 + 0.9*(300 x12)
=6840 average damage

So the average damage went up with 90% doublestrike in this example.

Or another way to look at it like this;
Before:
14% chance of Adrenaline first hit + critical doublestrike; for 7200 damage total.
76% chance of Adrenaline first hit + non critical doublestrike; for 6250 damage total.
10% chance of Adrenaline first hit + no doublestrike; for 6000 damage total.

After:
90% chance of Adrenaline first hit + Adrenaline second hit; for 7200 damage total.
10% chance of Adrenaline first hit + no doublestrike; for 3600 damage total.

Repeating the same equation with 66% doublestrike calculated above and we have...
=300 x20 + 0.66 * (15% of 300x4 and 85% of 250)
=6259
vs
=300 x12 + 0.66 * 300 x12
=5976 average damage

So with 66% doublestrike the average damage went down with this amount of seeker and critical profile.

Well solve for X?
Well, simply put X is going to be different when you input different numbers for critical profile, base damage and amount of seeker. But what the heck; let's math out X in the above example.

300 x20 + x * (0.15 * 300 * 4 + 0.85 * 250) = 300 *12 + x * 300 * 12
6000 + x * 392.5 = 3600 + x * 3600
6000 - 3600 = 3600x - 392.5x
2400 = 3207.5x
x = 0.748246

So with those numbers you break even on damage at about 75% doublestrike.

[noinfo]

Correct. Anyone without high double strike will experience a DPS nerf. Would be cool it was an automatic double strike. For instance, maybe it gives +100% double strike on your next hit as well.

This and all would be back to where it was. Maybe a slight buff to 2wf but I don't see that as an issue at all.

[Duhboy]

Hello Everyone,

So in the most recent DDOCAST, it has been announced that the adrenaline and hunts end are going to be reduced in value. Adrenaline will be 200% instead of the current 400% and hunts end also reduced but the value hasn't been given yet.

My question is - isn't this too much of a nerf?

Melee first:

With the upcoming changes, the damage values present themselves with adrenaline on par with the current live servers ONLY if a character has 100% doublestrike. That means that after update 49, if a melee build uses adrenaline and has a full 100% bonus to doublestrike, it will be exactly the same amount of damage as it is now in live servers.
But then how many new players or not legendary players can reach 100% doublestrike??? Also , only at lvl 29-30 you can get your doublestrike values to 100% of course if you have a complete set of past lives, a complete set of gear that gets doublestrike and a complete enhnamcement or racial bonuses that provide extra doublestrike. Those are the conditions that need to be met in order to have the damage on par.

Just to support with some math:

Currently on live servers example: 500dmg + 400% + 500 dmg (doublestrike) = 3k and if the player doesn't have the doublestrike at 100% it will be 2500 dmg whenever the doublestrike doesn't roll.

Update 49 suggested changes: 500dmg+500dmg+200% = 3k but only when the doublestrike rolls, and when it doesn't , the damage will only be 1500dmg!!!!

So the player who has let's say 80% doublestrike and uses adrenaline, will hit for HALF the dmg every 5 times he uses it. (Keep in mind that 80% doublestrike isn't a small number).
A player who currently has 80% doublestrike and uses arenaline hits for 5/6 of the damage (which is significanlty more than HALF dmg).

It has also been announced that the "spikiness" of the dmg rolls will be higher, well it won't in case of the adrenaline because the adrenaline max dmg is the same Pre and after update so in case of Adrenaline users , it is purely a loss of their boss DPS if they don't have 100% doublestrike.

So guys, do you think that Adrenaline melee users really deserve yet another nerf?
Keep in mind that the melee adrenaline users are mostly THF builds or some ranged builds, and THF has been nerfed this year already by reducing the ability to damage from 3.0 to 2.5, also the upcoming changes will eliminate a vast amount of procs which THF doesn't apply anyway because they don't swing as fast as the SWF or TWF or ranged!
So why such a nerf? Because someone scored too big crit in test dojo??
Please comment on this guys.

Second thing - ranged builds hunt's end nerf:
Not sure what values will it receive because they haven't announced it but that will be a nerf to the ranged builds too because when they were using any forms of multiple arrow/bolt attack, the adrenaline or hunt's end was being applied to ALL projectiles, and now it will be applied but with halfed or almost halfed effect.

So once more I am asking the comunnity and the Developers to tell us what is the reason behind nerfing Fury's and Shiradi's essential ability so substantially?

Is it really because someone scored a huge crit with help of several other people debuffing the Kobold Test Boss, buffing from other destiny like Spellsinger (Turn of The Tide), then switching destiny to buff another way and then scoring a lucky big hit?

Cheers to all with wishes of health in this difficult time,
Mal.

From what I've heard is that "Hunt's End" will be reduced from 400% to 300% while "Adrenaline Overload" will 400% to 200%.
I can understand reducing this especially for melee given SSG's revision of doublestrike and doubleshot. However, in order to do the same damage with Adrenaline Overload consistently after the update as it stands you have to have 80%+ doublestrike which is going to be difficult if you're playing a class or build that doesn't have doublestrike in enhancements, etc. Top-end gear will only go so far, for example on pure barbarians they get no doublestrike boost as a class feature or in enhancements thus relying on gear for it which is about 73% total give or take. They are not alone in this leaving certain specific builds to be able to benefit from this while ******* others over without little to no compensation to make up for it.

If SSG goes through with this change (which they are) I say let's compromise and make the reduction for adrenaline match hunt's end at 300% aswell as adding some double strike in the cores of FotW so EVERYONE can benefit from it change and not just a certain few.

Correct. Anyone without high double strike will experience a DPS nerf. Would be cool it was an automatic double strike. For instance, maybe it gives +100% double strike on your next hit as well.

I like this idea. It makes sense. It breaks even with THF this way with a bit of a buff to TWF. Which isn't a bad thing. I highly doubt SSG would go along with this though.

[Selvera]

They are not alone in this

Umm; sources please?

Alchemist: doublestrike bonuses
Artificer: doublestrike bonuses
Barbarian: No doublestrike
Bard: Doublestrike bonuses
Cleric: Doublestrike bonuses
Druid: Doublestrike bonuses
Fighter: Doublestrike bonuses
Monk: Doublestrike bonuses
Paladin: Doublestrike bonuses
Ranger: Doublestrike bonuses
Rogue: Doublestrike bonuses
Sorcerer: Doublestrike bonuses
Wizard: Doublestrike bonuses
Warlock: Oh there we go; no doublestrike.

I guess you're right; melee warlocks are the other build that doesn't have doublestrike bonuses from a class feature or enhancements. I should really be considerate to those melee warlocks. Sorry.

Though really; while the complaining may be over the top hyperbole; the real question is Fury of the Wild supposed to be a destany tree that focuses on doublestrike? And if not; why not just make adrenaline automatically doublestrike and nerf it a bit more to compensate; say 175% bonus damage instead of 200%. (As math shown above; 200% in theory buffs average damage). Then Fury can be the destany for those builds that want big numbers; not lots of proc effects/fast numbers.