Changes Focused on Boosting Game Performance

[Avocado]

The Assassinate ability is completely untouched by this, just tested it out myself to be sure.

Would help if i actually tested it ehh? Thanks for keeping it that way.


Also is the full stop of attacking WAI with many abilities. Like my character stops attacking for 2 full seconds to activate meld. That really makes the game clunky and unfun.

[ValariusK]

Huh. I did not know that.


Of course, the Doubting Thomas in me is going to make me test that out using one dagger instead of two.

Try it with a quarterstaff

[therobb]

Thank you DDO team for making lag and game performance a priority to improve.

In my tests on Lamania today at around noon PST the lag was unplayable so I couldn't really test the changes. On my inquisitive build the attacks simply wouldn't fire and I could hang in the air for several seconds after jumping.

[DoubleOh7]

Since trip, sunder, stunning blow, assassinate, etc aren't getting double chances with the change to doublestrike, can we get a reduced cooldown for those abilities?

[Telekinesis]

My question would be, why is combat lagging out other parts of the game not related to the dungeon or instance the raid group is in. Why are we sharing resources across so much of the game. It's seems really odd to say, the dots on a boss or combat is lagging people walking in the market place. I'm certainly no programmer.
Why not fix the root cause? Too expensive? An ability to process data quicker, separate dungeons and raids on different servers. My biggest concern is how can the game advance with these limitations? BTW I appreciate the explanation thanks.

[Natashaelle]

We understand that this change will carry a side-effect of reducing the effectiveness of non-damage procs across the board. However, we believe that the overall benefits of this pass will outweigh these side-effects, and will keep an eye on non-damage procs in the near future to ensure this does not have adverse effects on the player experience. We would also like to invite you to copy over to Lamannia and test out your rotation with these changes so you can better gauge the effectiveness of what's been changed. It's very important that these kinds of changes are put through their paces not just by us but by the players, and we want to iron out any rough edges ASAP so we can improve game performance.

Could a multi-hit with one of those non-damage procs potentially carry a DC bonus, or in the case of for example the Shiradi ones, a +1/2% bonus to proc chance ?

[MrWindupBird]

Other changes brought on by this

Some abilities seem to stop you from attacking for 2ish seconds.

Im not sure what caused this but abilities such as blood tribute, frenzy, and death frenzy stop you from attacking for well over a second. This is easily demonstrable by holding down left click, then hitting the ability. You will see your character stop attacking for several moments before resuming.
Swapping weapons also does this to a much greater extent. It takes nearly 2 seconds to continue attacking after swapping a weapon even with quick draw.
Meld(but not uncanny dodge) will do this as well but its a very brief interrupt in the attack sequence, much less so than other abilities mentioned.

Action boosts do not.
Weapon attacks (such as cleave and cracking attack) do not.


I did not test every ability just the ones mentioned here. Whatever caused this needs to go away. Not being able to attack is extremely unpleasant and ruins the feel of combat.
This is a bad effect of a good idea, Please fix this.


That said, lag seemed a fair bit better. Lagged out a couple times in r10 slavers but its slavers, theres always lag. The couple raids that I played felt quite smooth.

Thank you for doing what you do, and for listening, devs.

Strong agree on this. Smooth-feeling combat is one of the best things DDO has going for it. Introducing big attack hitches is going to feel very very bad. Presumably these are intentional changes due to the existence of chopping, but I hope you can smooth this so combat abilities can be used in combat without destroying the flow.

[LT218]

We are trying to reduce the amount of times over a period that procs happen, and changes that put us to the same amount of procs per second will not fix our effects queue problem.

Simple problem with a simple solution.

The game will have already calculated the mutlihit number (2, 3, 4, etc.).

Depending on the type of proc, intelligently apply that multihit number as a multiplier/modifier to the proc in some manner, whether it's scaling the damage, increasing the number of stacks applied by a multihit, increasing the chance to regen a charge or increasing the number of charges regenerated by a multihit, DC check modifier, etc.

Lots of options on ways to maintain the usefulness of most procs, debuffs, charge regen rates, and such.


Proc that applies 1 stack per hit? Use the multihit number as a multiplier for the number of stacks applied on a single hit. Doublehit applies 2 stacks, triplehit applies 3, etc.

Charge regen rates (Draconic reinvigoration, Adrenalines, etc.)? If the charge regen check succeeds during a successful multihit attack, restore 2 charges instead of 1.

% chance to proc effects? If it's a base 5% chance per hit to proc, increase the chance to proc by X amount based on the multihit count. It wouldn't even have to be linear. Give a doublehit a 7% chance, triplehit an 8% chance, etc. Yes, this will increase the average rate of proc effects which is the opposite of the goal, but with decreased number of overall attacks, the impact of this would still be lessened some. Or maybe don't increase the proc chance, but use the multihit number to increase the effectiveness, duration of the effect, etc.

Similar idea for procs with a DC check. Use the multihit as a modifier to the DC check or use it to increase the duration of the effect, etc. Doublehit? Add +1 to the DC check or add a few seconds to the duration of the effect. Triplehit? Add +2 and so on.

[KielbasaBeta]

Simple problem with a simple solution.

The game will have already calculated the mutlihit number (2, 3, 4, etc.).

Depending on the type of proc, intelligently apply that multihit number as a multiplier/modifier to the proc in some manner, whether it's scaling the damage, increasing the number of stacks applied by a multihit, increasing the chance to regen a charge or increasing the number of charges regenerated by a multihit, DC check modifier, etc.

Lots of options on ways to maintain the usefulness of most procs, debuffs, charge regen rates, and such.


Proc that applies 1 stack per hit? Use the multihit number as a multiplier for the number of stacks applied on a single hit. Doublehit applies 2 stacks, triplehit applies 3, etc.

Charge regen rates (Draconic reinvigoration, Adrenalines, etc.)? If the charge regen check succeeds during a successful multihit attack, restore 2 charges instead of 1.

% chance to proc effects? If it's a base 5% chance per hit to proc, increase the chance to proc by X amount based on the multihit count. It wouldn't even have to be linear. Give a doublehit a 7% chance, triplehit an 8% chance, etc. Yes, this will increase the average rate of proc effects which is the opposite of the goal, but with decreased number of overall attacks, the impact of this would still be lessened some. Or maybe don't increase the proc chance, but use the multihit number to increase the effectiveness, duration of the effect, etc.

Similar idea for procs with a DC check. Use the multihit as a modifier to the DC check or use it to increase the duration of the effect, etc. Doublehit? Add +1 to the DC check or add a few seconds to the duration of the effect. Triplehit? Add +2 and so on.

Amen!!

[mikarddo]

Simple problem with a simple solution.

The game will have already calculated the mutlihit number (2, 3, 4, etc.).

Depending on the type of proc, intelligently apply that multihit number as a multiplier/modifier to the proc in some manner, whether it's scaling the damage, increasing the number of stacks applied by a multihit, increasing the chance to regen a charge or increasing the number of charges regenerated by a multihit, DC check modifier, etc.

Lots of options on ways to maintain the usefulness of most procs, debuffs, charge regen rates, and such.


Proc that applies 1 stack per hit? Use the multihit number as a multiplier for the number of stacks applied on a single hit. Doublehit applies 2 stacks, triplehit applies 3, etc.

Charge regen rates (Draconic reinvigoration, Adrenalines, etc.)? If the charge regen check succeeds during a successful multihit attack, restore 2 charges instead of 1.

% chance to proc effects? If it's a base 5% chance per hit to proc, increase the chance to proc by X amount based on the multihit count. It wouldn't even have to be linear. Give a doublehit a 7% chance, triplehit an 8% chance, etc. Yes, this will increase the average rate of proc effects which is the opposite of the goal, but with decreased number of overall attacks, the impact of this would still be lessened some. Or maybe don't increase the proc chance, but use the multihit number to increase the effectiveness, duration of the effect, etc.

Similar idea for procs with a DC check. Use the multihit as a modifier to the DC check or use it to increase the duration of the effect, etc. Doublehit? Add +1 to the DC check or add a few seconds to the duration of the effect. Triplehit? Add +2 and so on.

Except thats a very not-simple solution as that puts the burden on the developer to go through each and every effect and modify how it works with multi-hits. That is a lot of work.

Also, you have effects with such low chance to work that you are fishing for natural 20s and only really having an effect due to hitting often. Changing the DC would do nothing but lowering the hits by a factor 2+ very severely nerfs the effect.

[mikarddo]

Double the duraction of paralyze, nerve venom etc. Of course that assumes we were getting 2 arrows per shot, not 3 or more...

A longer duration is much less useful than getting mobs locked down fast though - but its a bandaid worth taking if nothing else is possible. Often the current duration is plenty though and the main point is getting things locked down fast.

I suppose
- Direct damage: scale with number of hits
- Stacks applied (to the mob or to you): scale with number of hits
- Temp HP / Temp SP: scale with number of hits
- Debuff duration: Scale with number of hits

Even so, for melee and ranged the game just took a turn even further towards pure damage and away from cc or other effects. which is kind of sad.

[Anthorin1]

So I understand the explanation about lag, but how does this explain Shroud for instance. After each part when heading to the chests there is always massive lag when there is no combat involved.

[Nugaot]

Thank you DDO team for making lag and game performance a priority to improve.

In my tests on Lamania today at around noon PST the lag was unplayable so I couldn't really test the changes. On my inquisitive build the attacks simply wouldn't fire and I could hang in the air for several seconds after jumping.

Yikes.

This is a pretty major change to the way ranged and melee combat works, arguably for the worse as this seems to be an overall nerf to proc effects. And it's been stated that the devs don't intend to walk this back either. If it were improving game performance overall it would be one thing, but is it?

[mikarddo]

These are all report on lag from play testing on Lamania. This is shortly after a server reset on a server too.

We really need actual investigation into this - not just raid tests. Its cool finding out that raids or other intense combat cause lag and doing something to fix that - but if its only a small portion of the lag we are experiencing its just not good enough.

The feeling is not terribly good right now, I am saddened to report.

Originally Posted by droid327
Lag still bad, so hard to test hit-for-hit.

Originally Posted by GoldyGopher
There was lots of lagged moments during testing. Interact with a door, lag for 10 seconds. Mobs spawn, 10 seconds freeze lag.

Thank you DDO team for making lag and game performance a priority to improve.

In my tests on Lamania today at around noon PST the lag was unplayable so I couldn't really test the changes. On my inquisitive build the attacks simply wouldn't fire and I could hang in the air for several seconds after jumping.

Plus if it was anything like when i was on Lam last night the lag was horrendous and a lot of my shots didn't seem to be going off at all with no record in the combat log.

[LordofLaw]

Maybe I'm worried about nothing, but this seems like a bad choice. I'm sure it will significantly help with lag, and so to that extent it will accomplish your objective, but it does so at the cost of one of the most fun aspects of DDO combat to me.

My main, and therefore by far the primary lens through which I view any change to this game, is a shuriken monk. I chose that build specifically to be able to throw ludicrous amounts of ninja stars at things. I tear through quests with my vorpal shuris, blind everything with my offhand celestia, do all sorts of weird things with double rainbow, and anything that survives all that gets stopped in its tracks by nerve venom. I love it. All of that gets about 3-4 times worse because of this change, and while my build does respectable damage, I don't play it for the damage, never have. I play it because of the procs. I've been working on getting past lives for a long time now for a super weird summoner with greensteel ooze shurikens and just creates piles of oozes on top of my enemies, and that whole build I think might be completely shot by this change (if it was even viable to begin with, which to be honest I'm not sure). I've made a swash bard that can just barely manage to solo quests because of SWF with a vorpal sword and guardbreaking buckler, but I don't think he'll be able to do that any more. Granted that last one I could probably build him better to the point he could solo again, but it was just something I whipped up on a whim and really enjoyed that playstyle. Procs are what make DDO fun for me. I get they they are a significant source of lag, and if the only way to fight it is to seriously handicap these procs, then so be it, but I'm almost certain its gonna make the game less fun for me.

DDO is the best MMO on the market for me because of the variety of builds available that all play really differently. This change is almost certainly going to push more and more builds toward just pure DPS, curtailing some of that variety.

This is certainly not going to kill the game for me, it'll still be one of my favorites if you follow through with this change, but I can't help but feel like it's not a step in the right direction. Not entirely wrong, sure; lag is a HUGE problem in DDO today, but I just really hope this isn't necesary to fix that.

I've been taking a break from DDO recently, but I'm still paying VIP because I love the game that much that I want to support it, but I'm gonna try to break my DDO hiatus and hop on Lamm so I can give you some feedback from actual experience instead of just gut reaction. Until then, cheers, and I hope you all have a lovely day.

[BingoGazingo]

I have standing 200% doubleshot, on live my attack produces 3 daggers.

This means you guys are reducing nerve venom proc chance significantly, 1 dagger per attack does not proc that often...

Also archer's focus stacks are building up a way slower.

I wanted to see damage from cumulated attack, rolled 1 on my very first Hunt's End on Lam. On live if I miss with first dagger, have always chance to deliver damage with remaining 2 daggers.

Doom!

[mikarddo]

I have standing 200% doubleshot, on live my attack produces 3 daggers.

This means you guys are reducing nerve venom proc chance significantly, 1 dagger per attack does not proc that often...

Also archer's focus stacks are building up a way slower.

I wanted to see damage from cumulated attack, rolled 1 on my very first Hunt's End on Lam. On live if I miss with first dagger, have always chance to deliver damage with remaining 2 daggers.

Doom!

Aye, throwers, both dagger and shuriken, are getting nerfed very heavily if this goes through.
Bows are just getting nerfed where they needed buffing with Monkchers getting fully removed from the game.

[CeltEireson]

Did some additional testing on Lam.

As expected stacks of archers focus took a fair bit longer to build, although slightly offset by the fact that manyshot can get you 3 stacks now, so you could use it and aimed shot to increase the rate of building stacks. This one is possibly more important because it has a significant effect on your DPS so lowering the rate we accumulate stacks could negate some the improvements DPS wise from the archery revamp.

Nerve venom also going off less frequently - which will also effect DPS overall given it causes helpless, not to mention crowd control.

Also was trying out a few things on my swashbuckler and guardbreaking is also going off less often so not as reliable on keeping a target out of action which is awkward as I rely on it to stop me taking damage.

On a more positive note haste enhancement certain boosts attack speed with the bow now, which again could offset stack generation for archers focus but obviously youre limited in number of action boosts you have, and if you're like me you save them for more difficult fights or oops moments.

[Lotoc]

I have some questions regarding twf with these changes
Will doublestrike over 100% give offhand doublestrike or is offhand doublestrike effectively capped at 50%?
Will the perfect two weapon fighting feat and aasimar scourge past life feat be changed/gain an effect to cover the fact that right now they give more OHDS than regular DS? (I'd suggest giving perfect two weapon fighting 10% offhand attack chance and 10% extra doublestrike if your offhand attack chance is already at 100%)
Would it be possible to give doublestrike over 100% a straight conversion to offhand doublestrike? So say 120% doublestrike would be 100% mainhand 70% offhand?

[Mindos]

So I understand the explanation about lag, but how does this explain Shroud for instance. After each part when heading to the chests there is always massive lag when there is no combat involved.

I may be wrong, but I always thought it was pre-rolling all the loot.